Supplementary Choline Raises Risk Of Blood Clots; Aspirin To The Rescue

[Frankdee20]

There must be a sweet spot for dietary choline? It seems lowering it too much may be bad too? Association Between Anticholinergic Medication Use and Cognition, Brain Metabolism, and Brain Atrophy in Cognitively Normal Older Adults. - PubMed - NCBI

The right amount of Choline helps my brain a bit, but if I eat 4 eggs, I’m brain dead retartded, completely not in sync with my environment and brutally depressed. I simply don’t eat them.

 

[gabys225]

This also brings to mind that the action of certain commonly used pesticides work via cholinergic mechanisms, and chronic low grade exposure seems to me to tip the balance towards more rather than less choline.

 

[ddjd]

so aspirin is an antidote to the negative effects of choline?

 

[ddjd]

@Dan Wich @gabys225 @Janelle525 @Amazoniac @morgan#1 @Mito @RMJ @ecstatichamster @yurt @Milena


SKIP TO 13:15'

I found this interesting video about Phosphatidylcholine where he basically says a select few high quality Phosphatidylcholine supplements do not cause the TMAO risk like most do ;

"Presently, as far as we know, the only companies that have succeeded to separate the phosphatides from lecithin are BodyBio, American Lecithin, and Essentiale Forte®, sold in pharmacies in Europe. All other vitamin companies continue to market the misnamed capsules under their own label, which, will not succeed in providing any PC, and which recently, has been shown to be a possible cause of atherosclerosis (Wang 2011)."


they also did a PDF
https://www.bodybio.com/v/BodyBio/docs/PC-Phosphatidylcholine-Fountain-of-Health.pdf

Theyre basically claiming if you want bioavailable phospholipids, you need to buy a product where those phospholipids have been extracted out of the lecithin, and packaged alone, not in a fat base. Apparantly placing a phospholipid into a fat base disables its bioavailability. They say this is one of the biggest scams in nutrition. The large industrial seed companies all convinced the regulators to allow them to take their engineered lecithin formulas and put 30% phospholipids into those and then call the resulting goo a "phosphatidylcholine". But apparantly it isn't bioavailable. It's just lecithin. Yes, it contains phospholipids, but your body cannot incorporate them into cell structure because of how they were packaged. They conveniently forget to tell you that on the product label. if its true, its a pretty obscene violation of consumer trust.

 

[InChristAlone]

@Dan Wich @gabys225 @Janelle525 @Amazoniac @morgan#1 @Mito @RMJ @ecstatichamster @yurt @Milena


SKIP TO 13:15'

I found this interesting video about Phosphatidylcholine where he basically says a select few high quality Phosphatidylcholine supplements do not cause the TMAO risk like most do ;

"Presently, as far as we know, the only companies that have succeeded to separate the phosphatides from lecithin are BodyBio, American Lecithin, and Essentiale Forte®, sold in pharmacies in Europe. All other vitamin companies continue to market the misnamed capsules under their own label, which, will not succeed in providing any PC, and which recently, has been shown to be a possible cause of atherosclerosis (Wang 2011)."


they also did a PDF
https://www.bodybio.com/v/BodyBio/docs/PC-Phosphatidylcholine-Fountain-of-Health.pdf

Theyre basically claiming if you want bioavailable phospholipids, you need to buy a product where those phospholipids have been extracted out of the lecithin, and packaged alone, not in a fat base. Apparantly placing a phospholipid into a fat base disables its bioavailability. They say this is one of the biggest scams in nutrition. The large industrial seed companies all convinced the regulators to allow them to take their engineered lecithin formulas and put 30% phospholipids into those and then call the resulting goo a "phosphatidylcholine". But apparantly it isn't bioavailable. It's just lecithin. Yes, it contains phospholipids, but your body cannot incorporate them into cell structure because of how they were packaged. They conveniently forget to tell you that on the product label. if its true, its a pretty obscene violation of consumer trust.

Joe this is huge! I would like to talk about this more. Anyone else?

 

[Amazoniac]

@Dan Wich @gabys225 @Janelle525 @Amazoniac @morgan#1 @Mito @RMJ @ecstatichamster @yurt @Milena


SKIP TO 13:15'

I found this interesting video about Phosphatidylcholine where he basically says a select few high quality Phosphatidylcholine supplements do not cause the TMAO risk like most do ;

"Presently, as far as we know, the only companies that have succeeded to separate the phosphatides from lecithin are BodyBio, American Lecithin, and Essentiale Forte®, sold in pharmacies in Europe. All other vitamin companies continue to market the misnamed capsules under their own label, which, will not succeed in providing any PC, and which recently, has been shown to be a possible cause of atherosclerosis (Wang 2011)."


they also did a PDF
https://www.bodybio.com/v/BodyBio/docs/PC-Phosphatidylcholine-Fountain-of-Health.pdf

Theyre basically claiming if you want bioavailable phospholipids, you need to buy a product where those phospholipids have been extracted out of the lecithin, and packaged alone, not in a fat base. Apparantly placing a phospholipid into a fat base disables its bioavailability. They say this is one of the biggest scams in nutrition. The large industrial seed companies all convinced the regulators to allow them to take their engineered lecithin formulas and put 30% phospholipids into those and then call the resulting goo a "phosphatidylcholine". But apparantly it isn't bioavailable. It's just lecithin. Yes, it contains phospholipids, but your body cannot incorporate them into cell structure because of how they were packaged. They conveniently forget to tell you that on the product label. if its true, its a pretty obscene violation of consumer trust.

Thank you, Joey.

I think those products that he humiliated are sold as choline supplements. The problems with LMAO)) appear from choline chloride as well for example, so it can't be due to the lipids. I think one of the main issues with lecithin comes from the lipid composition, which varies depending on the plant or the diet of the guru.

Milch has some free sucholine:
Choline - Wikipedia

MitoLipin - Dietary Supplement For Cardiolipin And Mitochondria Support

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Choline (definitely not a biologist) might bring up the acetylcholine

Can Choline Deficiency Actually Increase Cholinergic Activity?

 

[InChristAlone]

Thank you, Joey.

I think those products that he humiliated are sold as choline supplements. The problems with LMAO)) appear from choline chloride as well for example, so it can't be due to the lipids. I think one of the main issues with lecithin comes from the lipid composition, which varies depending on the plant or the diet of the guru.

Milch has some free sucholine:
Choline - Wikipedia

MitoLipin - Dietary Supplement For Cardiolipin And Mitochondria Support

So you don't think it's the lipids in the supplements? More that they are unsaturated? But wouldn't have they figured that out by now? I mean to check different lipid carriers?

 

[Amazoniac]

So you don't think it's the lipids in the supplements? More that they are unsaturated? But wouldn't have they figured that out by now? I mean to check different lipid carriers?

I meant that those supplements never claimed to provide useful phospholipids, it's the irrelevant part for them since they're sold as choline supplements, some even favor the acetylsucholine route.
For structure, it's a matter of providing the saturated fat lecithin that the cell will welcome. Other than that I'm not aware of problems. I find that the omega 3/6 ratio can be a bit distracting.

 

[ddjd]

I meant that those supplements never claimed to provide useful phospholipids, it's the irrelevant part for them since they're sold as choline supplements, some even favor the acetylsucholine route.
For structure, it's a matter of providing the saturated fat lecithin that the cell will welcome. Other than that I'm not aware of problems. I find that the omega 3/6 ratio can be a bit distracting.

So mitolipin is the best option in terms of phosphatydylcholine getting into the cell?

 

[Amazoniac]

So mitolipin is the best option in terms of phosphatydylcholine getting into the cell?

Zeus explains why in more details in its description.

 

[ddjd]

I would not use supplemental choline unless it is the saturated variety. I would avoid choline in general unless it comes from dietary sources like eggs.

Do you know if Aspirin in itself possesses any anticholinergic properties?

And i also heard that Acetylcholine when raised can reduce serotonin, which sounds like an interesting avenue to explore. Have you heard anything about this?

 

[ddjd]

Ray has written about the dangers of choline and its close relationship with estrogen.

I read this online:

"Another useful function of Choline is that it is an estrogen methylator. That means choline donates a methyl group or molecule to an estrogen molecule, rendering estrogen inert and allowing the body to eliminate estrogen through our excrement."

Would ray say this is completely inaccurate then?

 

[lollipop]

I read this online:

"Another useful function of Choline is that it is an estrogen methylator. That means choline donates a methyl group or molecule to an estrogen molecule, rendering estrogen inert and allowing the body to eliminate estrogen through our excrement."

Would ray say this is completely inaccurate then?

Good question. Bumping this. Anyone know?

 

[haidut]

Do you know if Aspirin in itself possesses any anticholinergic properties?

And i also heard that Acetylcholine when raised can reduce serotonin, which sounds like an interesting avenue to explore. Have you heard anything about this?

All the cholinergic drugs developed for Alzheimer bombed spectacularly in human trials, and even caused cancer rates in the active groups to go up. The Alzheimer drugs like memantine are anticholinergic. The cholinergic system is heavily involved in severe depression and cancer and human trials have confirmed this over and over again. If it does have good effects, I would they can compensate for these side effects.

 

[Frankdee20]

All the cholinergic drugs developed for Alzheimer bombed spectacularly in human trials, and even caused cancer rates in the active groups to go up. The Alzheimer drugs like memantine are anticholinergic. The cholinergic system is heavily involved in severe depression and cancer and human trials have confirmed this over and over again. If it does have good effects, I would they can compensate for these side effects.

For sure on the depression link, I definitely notice too much Choline intake sends me to despair ! Aren’t new antidepressants in the works that target acetylcholine ?

 

[Frankdee20]

Do you know if Aspirin in itself possesses any anticholinergic properties?

And i also heard that Acetylcholine when raised can reduce serotonin, which sounds like an interesting avenue to explore. Have you heard anything about this?

Choline also has inhibitory actions on Dopamine projections. It can lower dopamine as well. Nicotine receptors on Acetylcholine are probably an exception, they can inervate Mesolimbic Dopamine pathways. Overall, Ach is thought of as excitatory however.

 

[Hemo]

My first post here. I own an addiction treatment center. We run NAD. I am part of the NAD BR+ fellowship and on the NAD Research Board associated with Springfield. My motivation is survival. Hurdles are hemochromatosis and afib=warfarin.

I have been wanting to supplement with ALCAR. The problem is that it appears from my research that if ALCAR results in headaches, then supplement with Choline, which then leads to this thread.

I have made my own lipo C using sunflower lecithin and have repeatedly hemmoraged my eyes. I supplemented with Patch MD, which uses choline as a deliverable to increase saturation and efficacy. Again bleed out and eye hemmorage. This seems contrary to the idea of coagulation, albeit outcome based on warfarin in play.

I am about to jump off warfarin and have reviewed most commonly referenced alternatives. However it is daunting post stroke while still in persistent afib.

I have been developing a protocol to aid in the reversal and possiblby terminate afib. Interestingly enough gut health starting with metals detox is front and center.

I really need ALCAR in the mix. However I think ALCAR was even cited as increasing coagulation.

I have multiple citations, in addition to the above referenced personal expirences, that choline increases the efficacy of warfarin. Besides the noted synergy with warfarin, it also is commonly toted that PC is important in revitalizing the cell membrane.

Respectfully, this thread is absent of reference levels and identification of testing assays. It might be a good idea to focus on baselining, titration ideas, administration, test, adjust, treat.

As for Cleveland, I grew up there. These monoliths are scarey. Years ago, during the days of Natale (prominent ablation expert) before his move to Texas I called out CCF for advertising the same outcome benchmarks as applied to both paraoxysmal and persistent afib. They changed their website. When you follow the money the truth gets blurry.

I want to supplement with ALCAR, but I also see the benefits of choline. I have a healthy respect for the counterpoint since I am an outlier. Methods, measures and metrics? ICD and CPT codes and lab designations?

 

[ddjd]

Do you think Niacinamide might also be useful against TMAO?

 

[Waremu]

I don't understand how Ray Peat can have such an anti-choline stance when, effectively, like it or not, his model diet he follows is actually quite high in choline. For example, if you take the staple food in Peat land (milk), you'll EASILY be hitting 400-500 + mg of choline per day from milk alone. Throw in eggs or meats, and you very easily hit 600-800 + mg of choline. (One cup of skim milk alone has 38-40 mg of choline; one egg has around 115-145 mg of choline.)