Cannabis: Pro Or Anti-metabolic?

[rei]

Research on how cannabis affects the human liver is still quite limited, but from the studies that have been done, we know that the relationship between the two can be somewhat complicated and can vary depending on the liver condition involved.

For most healthy individuals, cannabis use shouldn’t cause liver complications and may even potentially play a protective role against developing alcoholic liver disease and nonalcoholic fatty liver disease.

The potential harm is when a developing brain is abusing it and sitting around doing nothing instead of moving about, living. Cannabis seems to have exceptional capacity to passivate people, they just accept doing nothing and seem contempt continuing it as long as they have cannabis available.

I would like some actual science on the prostaglandin disruption

 

[Randle Cyclist]

Observing the laziness and stupefying factors in others is what made me entirely against cannabis until I tried it myself in Washington a few years ago. Of course, those effects depend on the user as well as the dosage.

Johnwester, I checked out those videos. Man, I mistook that first guy for a chick at first glance. I've known a few stoners with a similar appearance minus the hair. It's kinda scary to think that cannabis could potentially have such a powerful feminizing effect.

The stoners I knew in the past were all of very slight build too. Perhaps heavy use can promote muscle loss? Not sure how this would tie in to its effect on the metabolism though.

 

[boris]

That's my plan once I quit in a couple of weeks. I hate having to rely on any medicine other than coffee and thyroid. I need it now to sleep and the potential drop in body temperature is a welcome effect for me now since I'm sleeping outdoors(moldy house; long story). Could you post a study on the liver impairment? Anything that interferes with the liver seems to cause a cascade of negative effects when used long term. But yes, I agree, using it orally sucks.

Actually I haven't looked into the studies it was just my anecdotal observation of how it made me feel. There seems to be conflicting evidence. Some studies show benefits for the liver some show negatives. I wonder what Peats comment refers to when he says "it's estrogenic/antiandrogenic but in some cases can be protective".

How Cannabis Affects Your Liver

Marijuana Study Finds CBD Can Cause Liver Damage

 

[boris]

Johnwester, I checked out those videos. Man, I mistook that first guy for a chick at first glance. I've known a few stoners with a similar appearance minus the hair. It's kinda scary to think that cannabis could potentially have such a powerful feminizing effect.

The stoners I knew in the past were all of very slight build too. Perhaps heavy use can promote muscle loss? Not sure how this would tie in to its effect on the metabolism though.

I always thought of many stoners as subconsciously self medicating. It could be that weed just attracts people with androgynous hormonal profiles. Maybe it's the feeling of the pregnenolone counter action in the brain? It also seems to have some serotonin action, although I don't know if it's clear what it does exactly.

 

[Jessie]

So, Peat's exact words on the matter is:

"It can probably be helpful for lowering nitric oxide in some situations, but there’s some evidence that it increases prostaglandins, which could be harmful in a person whose tissues have a lot of PUFA. The acidic form, CBDA, seems likely to be more broadly protective."

Admittedly there isn't much there, but it seems like he's suggesting it can act on NO in a way that can be beneficial. Also his note on CBDA seems to support the conclusion that juicing/eating raw cannabis is probably the most beneficial. Perhaps those of you that are in personal contact with him could ask him to elaborate on the topic, maybe provide some more information and references about the prostaglandin conundrum.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

It could be that weed just attracts people with androgynous hormonal profiles

That could very well be the case. I consider myself pretty masculine and this is the second time in my life I've used cannabis regularly. The first time was for sciatica and towards the end I was sick of how it was making me feel. Now I'm using it to sleep until I move to a new house and I truly can't wait to stop. I no longer enjoy it. I'll take that as a sign from my body that it's about time to quit.

Regarding the liver, I recall seeing a report that fatty liver was more prevalent among users which was contradicted by other reports showing the opposite. Cannabis seems like the Janus of the herbal world.

I'd be very interested to hear what Peat has to say on the subject, not so much the prostaglandins but on the endocannabinoid system as a whole. I bet many of us here have very low pufa stores so I'm not sure if a rise in prostaglandins is a major concern.

 

[danishispsychic]

i do believe it does drop blood sugar/pressure dangerously. i ended up in an ambulance with paramedics trying to get my blood pressure back up after blacking out . i ate a pot cookie and was on my period and well.... it was the closest i have been to dead so far. no edibles for me ever again. i miss marijuana so much ....

 

[Korven]

i do believe it does drop blood sugar/pressure dangerously. i ended up in an ambulance with paramedics trying to get my blood pressure back up after blacking out . i ate a pot cookie and was on my period and well.... it was the closest i have been to dead so far. no edibles for me ever again. i miss marijuana so much ....

Wow that sounds intense!

I've also experienced some bad hypoglycemic episodes from weed. However at the time I didn't realize these 'bad trips' were due to low blood sugar, I thought it was just strong weed hitting me hard. Having OJ on hand is probably a good idea when partaking.

In my experience weed edibles are way more potent, they hit you like a truck! I get very strong visual and auditory hallucinations from it that I don't get from smoking.

 

[belcanto]

I used to work for an internal medicine doctor who is a longevity specialist, so he often prescribed compounded testosterone for some of his patients. He also looked into marijuana use to see if that was a factor in their low testosterone levels.

Here are just a few links showing the association of cannabis and lowered testosterone:
Cannabis and Male Fertility: A Systematic Review - PubMed
Endocrine effects of marijuana in the male: preclinical studies - PubMed
Marihuana inhibits dihydrotestosterone binding to the androgen receptor - PubMed

Good luck, guys!

 

[Randle Cyclist]

Thank you, belcanto. Did the doctor that you worked for reach a conclusion on cannabis' effect on test levels based on his experience with his patients?

The studies that you posted are concerning, especially the one that suggests THC blocks Dht binding. Sure, some people in the "cannabis is a harmless panacea" camp will say it has no negative effects on testosterone but I suspect it is harmful to male reproductive health with chronic usage.

I don't think we can yet come to an absolute conclusion regarding cannabis' effect on the metabolism or testosterone but based on the evidence I think it's prudent to use it sparingly like alcohol. Unless, of course, you're dealing with chronic pain in which case it's less harmful than opiates.

 

[Jessie]

i do believe it does drop blood sugar/pressure dangerously. i ended up in an ambulance with paramedics trying to get my blood pressure back up after blacking out . i ate a pot cookie and was on my period and well.... it was the closest i have been to dead so far. no edibles for me ever again. i miss marijuana so much ....

Wow that's intense, probably the scariest cannabis story I've ever heard. Glad you're okay. Edibles really messed me up one time too, it was the first time and last time I ever did them. I made pesto with cannabis infused olive oil. It's nothing like smoking it, it took a real long time to kick in, but when it did, it was super powerful and gave me a very uncomfortable feeling. I didn't lay down to sleep until like 3 AM.

 

[belcanto]

Thank you, belcanto. Did the doctor that you worked for reach a conclusion on cannabis' effect on test levels based on his experience with his patients?

The studies that you posted are concerning, especially the one that suggests THC blocks Dht binding. Sure, some people in the "cannabis is a harmless panacea" camp will say it has no negative effects on testosterone but I suspect it is harmful to male reproductive health with chronic usage.

I don't think we can yet come to an absolute conclusion regarding cannabis' effect on the metabolism or testosterone but based on the evidence I think it's prudent to use it sparingly like alcohol. Unless, of course, you're dealing with chronic pain in which case it's less harmful than opiates.

At the time I worked for him, cannabis use was less common in California; there was medical marijuana, but usually another particular pain management doctor I worked for would send patients to another M.D. in Southern California to receive it, so it wasn't like getting it from a current dispensary. (Btw, one thing the pain management doc did frequently recommend is acupuncture, and there's evidence in the medical literature that it's helpful for chronic pain. This doctor is a specialist in detoxing people from opiates using a kind of sleep detox under observation in an ICU.)

About the testosterone, the internal medicine doctor recommended discontinuing it because of how it would affect testosterone. I agree with you, I think it is prudent to use it sparingly like alcohol! I would have to find out what component of the marijuana/cannabis causes the low testosterone - is it the THC or the CBD? If it's just the THC, then CBD oil by itself shouldn't present any problems. I know a lot of people who use CBD oil roll-ons for arthritis, etc. and it's very effective!

The following article references a lot of good studies to back up the idea that it's the THC in the cannabis that's lowering the testosterone; the writer says interesting things about the CBD, too; it remains to be seen just how much CBD oil would be affecting the endocrine system merely by applying it topically? That may be a Haidut question! CBD and Testosterone: Does CBD Oil Lower Testosterone

 

[Randle Cyclist]

I appreciate the response. I never considered acupuncture when I had a fractured sacrum and sciatica from a skiing accident. I was seeing a chiropractor and he eventually recommended a series of cortisone injections into the spine. A terrible idea but I was desperate. I went from having an electrical sensation down into my toes to not being able to feel my right leg at all after just one injection. I was told by the administering doctor that my back would never heal. I never went back to either the doctor or chiropractor and began to use cannabis twice a day orally. When I quit abruptly 6 months later my back pain had vanished, never to return. The only withdrawal symptoms I had were difficulty sleeping and a loss of appetite. During that time period I ending up losing maybe 10lbs/4.5kg of muscle.


If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that both thc and cbd alter test levels and together the effect is likely more profound than either chemical in isolation. It probably has little impact if you use once a week or less. More frequently, though, and low test could become an issue. Again, similar to alcohol.

Regarding topical use, I'll defer to haidut. He's got to be the most knowledgeable person here concerning the topical absorption of various chemicals.

Another thing I just considered on the subject of cannabis and the metabolism is that oral use tends to cause constipation. That side effect more than any other is the reason why I bought a vaporizer. I can't think of a single pro-metabolic substance that causes constipation while I can name quite a few metabolically harmful substances that do.

Ultimately, there isn't enough info out there to make a solid statement on the matter. I'm going to experiment for myself starting sometime this week and report back. I'm going to quit cold turkey and use kava kava to help me sleep instead of weed. Nothing else will change. Some of my data will be subjective, like how I look (water retention, body fat, and muscularity) and feel (energy levels and drive), while my body weight and temperature will be objective. As far as I am aware, no one else has logged the effect of cannabis use and discontinuation on their metabolism or physique.

 

[belcanto]

I appreciate the response. I never considered acupuncture when I had a fractured sacrum and sciatica from a skiing accident. I was seeing a chiropractor and he eventually recommended a series of cortisone injections into the spine. A terrible idea but I was desperate. I went from having an electrical sensation down into my toes to not being able to feel my right leg at all after just one injection. I was told by the administering doctor that my back would never heal. I never went back to either the doctor or chiropractor and began to use cannabis twice a day orally. When I quit abruptly 6 months later my back pain had vanished, never to return. The only withdrawal symptoms I had were difficulty sleeping and a loss of appetite. During that time period I ending up losing maybe 10lbs/4.5kg of muscle.


If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that both thc and cbd alter test levels and together the effect is likely more profound than either chemical in isolation. It probably has little impact if you use once a week or less. More frequently, though, and low test could become an issue. Again, similar to alcohol.

Regarding topical use, I'll defer to haidut. He's got to be the most knowledgeable person here concerning the topical absorption of various chemicals.

Another thing I just considered on the subject of cannabis and the metabolism is that oral use tends to cause constipation. That side effect more than any other is the reason why I bought a vaporizer. I can't think of a single pro-metabolic substance that causes constipation while I can name quite a few metabolically harmful substances that do.

Ultimately, there isn't enough info out there to make a solid statement on the matter. I'm going to experiment for myself starting sometime this week and report back. I'm going to quit cold turkey and use kava kava to help me sleep instead of weed. Nothing else will change. Some of my data will be subjective, like how I look (water retention, body fat, and muscularity) and feel (energy levels and drive), while my body weight and temperature will be objective. As far as I am aware, no one else has logged the effect of cannabis use and discontinuation on their metabolism or physique.

What keeps you from sleeping. Randle? If it's racing thoughts, L-theanine is very helpful. It's an amino acid that's found in green tea. I don't know if you're close to the ocean, but ocean bathing always relaxes me, I wonder if it's all the magnesium?

I hope you're able to sleep soon.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

I appreciate the suggestions and well wishes. The story is a long one but in short I had a serious mold issue in my home's ac system which I had remediated. It was causing some very disturbing symptoms, first in my dog and then myself. I thought I'd be able stay inside after remediation but I was sleeping poorly and waking up with bloody sinuses. So, I've been sleeping in my truck which is both hot and uncomfortable hence the need for a sleep aid. I managed to sell the house which is due to close at the end of the month so I just need to persevere a bit longer.

 

[ebs]

I think cannabis is an interesting substance. It helps me break the stress cycle, but initially it makes me feel worse before it makes me feel (and look) better the next 24 hours or so. But if I smoke each day I can get very depressed.

I've read here that it boosts pregnenolone/progesterone, but according to examine.com it elevates cortisol and glutamate. This explains why stress, negative thoughts and anxiety initially gets worse. But then after an hour or two when the psychedelic effects wears out the physical effect remains and it then feels like I've taken a tranquilizer. Can anyone relate? So my theory is that it boosts these stress hormones to depletion and then the pregnenolone effects continue for a day or so before it plummets too and then I feel worse for a couple days before everything goes back to baseline.

I have similar experience with phenibut which makes me feel great before crashing for several days, although the mechanism is different.

 

[ebs]

Wow that's intense, probably the scariest cannabis story I've ever heard. Glad you're okay. Edibles really messed me up one time too, it was the first time and last time I ever did them. I made pesto with cannabis infused olive oil. It's nothing like smoking it, it took a real long time to kick in, but when it did, it was super powerful and gave me a very uncomfortable feeling. I didn't lay down to sleep until like 3 AM.

A few years ago I was using weed oil for relaxation. I found one bottle that was over a year old and after taking a couple drops I felt little effect so I thought it had lost its potency. After some time I just decided to drink up the whole bottle. Felt hardly anything for a couple hours before it hit me hard. The next five or six hours were the scariest of my life. My heartrate went up to 160+ and I could hardly talk or walk anymore. I also felt incredibly weird like nothing I've ever experienced before. I started having slurred speech and thought that was due to brain damage. So I called the emergency hotline as I was convinced I was dying. I had to crawl to the door to open it and they found me lying on the floor. They gave me an intravenous tranquillizer in an attempt to slow down my heart rate which didn't help. So I ended up at the ER because of cardiac arrhythmia. Luckily I turned out to be okay. Looking back, it's just a funny story (kind of like in the Wolf of Wall Street) but at the time it was the scariest thing I've ever experienced.

The good thing about this is that it made me immune to cannabis induced panic attacks ever since, and I've had numerous. That's because if there was ever a time I could die from it it would've been then. With smoking it's impossible to inhale the same amount I got from drinking it, it was a real cannabis overdose.

 

[Jessie]

A few years ago I was using weed oil for relaxation. I found one bottle that was over a year old and after taking a couple drops I felt little effect so I thought it had lost its potency. After some time I just decided to drink up the whole bottle. Felt hardly anything for a couple hours before it hit me hard. The next five or six hours were the scariest of my life. My heartrate went up to 160+ and I could hardly talk or walk anymore. I also felt incredibly weird like nothing I've ever experienced before. I started having slurred speech and thought that was due to brain damage. So I called the emergency hotline as I was convinced I was dying. I had to crawl to the door to open it and they found me lying on the floor. They gave me an intravenous tranquillizer in an attempt to slow down my heart rate which didn't help. So I ended up at the ER because of cardiac arrhythmia. Luckily I turned out to be okay. Looking back, it's just a funny story (kind of like in the Wolf of Wall Street) but at the time it was the scariest thing I've ever experienced.

The good thing about this is that it made me immune to cannabis induced panic attacks ever since, and I've had numerous. That's because if there was ever a time I could die from it it would've been then. With smoking it's impossible to inhale the same amount I got from drinking it, it was a real cannabis overdose.

Damn man, that sounds terrible. Glad you made it through it. I've never head of anyone dying from cannabis overdose but it sure sounds scary as hell. I suppose someone with a bad heart condition could be in trouble big time.

I've done lsd before and it was very enjoyable, not any problem at all. That's why I thought edible cannabis wouldn't be an issue, boy was I wrong. It's just intense in a very negative way. I have a old high-school buddy I still hang with occasionally, and he would always get panic attacks if he smoked too much of it. But the past two times he's had panic attacks I gave him cypro (2mgs) and he'd come right out of it. I'm starting to think having some cypro on hand is mandatory if you're partying and smoking a lot of weed. I'm thinking smoke inhalation must cause serotonergic effects.

 

[ebs]

Damn man, that sounds terrible. Glad you made it through it. I've never head of anyone dying from cannabis overdose but it sure sounds scary as hell. I suppose someone with a bad heart condition could be in trouble big time.

I've done lsd before and it was very enjoyable, not any problem at all. That's why I thought edible cannabis wouldn't be an issue, boy was I wrong. It's just intense in a very negative way. I have a old high-school buddy I still hang with occasionally, and he would always get panic attacks if he smoked too much of it. But the past two times he's had panic attacks I gave him cypro (2mgs) and he'd come right out of it. I'm starting to think having some cypro on hand is mandatory if you're partying and smoking a lot of weed. I'm thinking smoke inhalation must cause serotonergic effects.

Yeah I can relate to these panic attacks. I've had them like 50% of the time and yet I've always kept on finding it interesting. I've had the best movie experiences ever while stoned (2001, The Shining, etc.) and it also makes me incredibly horny, which I guess the panic attacks half the time were worth paying the price for. It was always the increased heart rate that made me freak out because I was scared of getting a heart attack, but since that incident even my own restless brain is now convinced there is nothing wrong with my heart (I had a resting heart rate of 160 for 4+ hours straight). Now whenever I get heart palpitations and increased anxiety I'm able to calm myself quickly. Sometimes I just have to move around a bit to lose the restlessness.

I'll keep your advice in mind as I have cypro here but I rather not fool around too much with other supplements when stoned. You never know the potential interaction.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

Quick update:

Last night was the first night in roughly 3 months that I went without cannabis. I tossed and turned for a bit over an hour but eventually managed to fall asleep. I have a dozen or more fire ant stings on my feet and without weed they were itching like hell. My dreams were pretty vivid and I can still recall them now hours later. I should be able to sleep easier once the kava kava I ordered arrives. I woke up without any grogginess.

As far as metabolic changes go, I felt a lot warmer last night without cannabis, almost to the point of sweating at 72F/22.2C ambient temps with a floor fan blowing. This morning I was nearly 7lbs/3.2kg lighter which I didn't think possible since I've been eating zero carb (yeah, it sucks but it helps me deal with toxic mold symptoms) since last Wednesday and I had already dropped 5lbs/2.3kg of water before last weekend. I'm carbing up tomorrow so we'll see what happens. I can't afford to lose any more muscle mass.