Marijuana May Cause Psychosis/schizophrenia By Increasing Serotonin Signalling

[ImprovingDaily]

I was commenting specifically on violent tendencies. I was giving an example, not reasoning from n=1. I've never met a violent stoned person . . . unless the pot was laced with something. And frankly its a well known effectf (inhibition of aggression).

Paranoia is a well known effect but should not be equated with schizophrenia. Those are two very different things.

Just because you've never met a violent potsmoker doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've had occasions where I've been aggressive while paranoid, I've seen a friend do the same. Luckily I can talk myself out of these mind states most of the time, but I can see where a person who is overwhelmed with low self control can get violent in the right circumstance.

And I definitely wouldn't say schizophrenia and paranoia are completely different. For one, there's a subset called paranoid schizophrenia, I believe. I've heard voices and had mild visual hallucinations while intoxicated, so I can see where in vulnerable people, this can lead to full blown schizophrenic episodes.

 

[ImprovingDaily]

It also negates most of the negative effects described in this thread.
A critical review of the antipsychotic effects of cannabidiol: 30 years of a translational investigation. - PubMed - NCBI

Modern cannabis strains have a completely unbalanced THC/CBD ratio.
Unfortunately many people view the borderline psychosis you get from smoking those strains as a sign of high quality, strong cannabis.

I've heard this, but I've never supplemented with CBD directly, just with whatever is already in the bud. I wonder if CBD is to THC, what Theanine is to Caffeine.

Do you have any recommendations for any CBD? I live in California and have the luxury or legality here .

 

[managing]

Just because you've never met a violent potsmoker doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've had occasions where I've been aggressive while paranoid, I've seen a friend do the same. Luckily I can talk myself out of these mind states most of the time, but I can see where a person who is overwhelmed with low self control can get violent in the right circumstance.

And I definitely wouldn't say schizophrenia and paranoia are completely different. For one, there's a subset called paranoid schizophrenia, I believe. I've heard voices and had mild visual hallucinations while intoxicated, so I can see where in vulnerable people, this can lead to full blown schizophrenic episodes.

Again, I am not reasoning from my own experience, only offering it as an example. THC lowers aggression. Its a well known and documented effect.

That said, if somebody is paranoid that somebody is trying to hurt them it doesn't mean they won't act aggressively, even if their overall aggression is lowered.

You need to distinguish between the thing associated with pot that we call "paranoia" and the "paranoid" in "paranoid schizophrenic". In the former, you are talking about irrational fears. The police are about to knock on my door, or I am about to have a heart attack (because THC can cause tachycardia), etc.

In the latter you are talking about actual hallucinations and widespread beliefs. The CIA is using their mindwave machine to scramble my thoughts. There, that car at the curb in front of my house. See that thing that guy is holding? Its only disguised to look like a cellphone. But its really a mindwave machine. AYYYYYYYYY!

It is perhaps true that schizophrenics shouldn't use THC. But it is not true that THC causes schizophrenia.

EDIT: BTW, now you are citing personal experience. Which isn't a big deal. But I still think that actual hallucinations are indicative of either a) a preexisting inclination toward hallucination (whcih you've suggested) or b) tainted/laced pot. I know of everything from PCP and Heroine being added to pot to . . . and even Lysol. Yes, WTF, but there it is.

 

[uriah]

I agree that it may cause the all these bad things to happen thats why so many criminals they do it because tis recreational

 

[squanch]

I've heard this, but I've never supplemented with CBD directly, just with whatever is already in the bud. I wonder if CBD is to THC, what Theanine is to Caffeine.

Do you have any recommendations for any CBD? I live in California and have the luxury or legality here .

If you have legal cannabis available I would just ask them for high CBD strains and try those.
A CBD:THC ratio of 20:1 or higher would cause no "high" at all and give you purely the medical effects of the CBD.
Something like a 2:1 CBD:THC ratio or even a 1:1 CBD:THC ratio would probably be an interesting sweet spot for still getting a slight "high" but none of the negative side effects of THC that are talked about in this thread.
Unfortunately I live in a country where I can't experiment much with those ratios. Strains with sub 0.2 % THC content are currently legally available in the EU, but those generally are in the area of 20:1 CBD:THC ratio with no "high" at all. All the illegal cannabis is of the typical high THC almost no CBD variety.
It would be nice if you could let me know about your experience with different CBD:THC ratios if you experiment with some.

 

[managing]

If you have legal cannabis available I would just ask them for high CBD strains and try those.
A CBD:THC ratio of 20:1 or higher would cause no "high" at all and give you purely the medical effects of the CBD.
Something like a 2:1 CBD:THC ratio or even a 1:1 CBD:THC ratio would probably be an interesting sweet spot for still getting a slight "high" but none of the negative side effects of THC that are talked about in this thread.
Unfortunately I live in a country where I can't experiment much with those ratios. Strains with sub 0.2 % THC content are currently legally available in the EU, but those generally are in the area of 20:1 CBD:THC ratio with no "high" at all. All the illegal cannabis is of the typical high THC almost no CBD variety.
It would be nice if you could let me know about your experience with different CBD:THC ratios if you experiment with some.

Here in California, its available with no measurable THC. I also personally would recommend trying edibles over smoking.

 

[haidut]

@haidut

This is so fascinating and was alluded to briefly in the one generative energy podcast. Is there a separate thread that goes into more detail about this? Possibly the scientific rationale and justification?

Some quote from Peat.
Mind Blow \ Dream Pressure
"...During exhausting fevers and after drinking too much, I have experienced a defective kind of dream, a kind of analytical, verbal delirium, in which one word only leads to another word. In place of fluid and integrated imagery, there was just a kind of fizzly yellow, or swarming orange, activity. Mental satisfaction becomes impossible in that state. (Green and blue usually seem to be suppressed in that kind of state.) Since I believe mental imagery is the real, working structure of language, I think a related kind of damage to the dream system, or dream metabolism, would account for the peculiar nature of "schizophrenic" verbalization."

And the Wiki article on epoche.
Epoché - Wikipedia

If you Google around for "phenomenology epoche" you will find more info on how that school of philosophy practices that state. I think just avoiding too much verbalism is enough to make you be in that state most of your waking hours, but I think the phenomenologists have additional methods.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

Fascinating, and it lines up nicely with my perception of drug addicts and their apparent inability to deal with reality, even mundane realities that children can handle, like performing reciprocal favors for a friend, or empathizing with another who is feeling a complex emotion. I'm picturing their frontal cortex being clouded with fantasies, which displaces cost benefit analysis and calculating futures etc.

How to get back to reality?

 

[Yggr]

Some quote from Peat.
Mind Blow \ Dream Pressure
"...During exhausting fevers and after drinking too much, I have experienced a defective kind of dream, a kind of analytical, verbal delirium, in which one word only leads to another word. In place of fluid and integrated imagery, there was just a kind of fizzly yellow, or swarming orange, activity. Mental satisfaction becomes impossible in that state. (Green and blue usually seem to be suppressed in that kind of state.) Since I believe mental imagery is the real, working structure of language, I think a related kind of damage to the dream system, or dream metabolism, would account for the peculiar nature of "schizophrenic" verbalization."

And the Wiki article on epoche.
Epoché - Wikipedia

If you Google around for "phenomenology epoche" you will find more info on how that school of philosophy practices that state. I think just avoiding too much verbalism is enough to make you be in that state most of your waking hours, but I think the phenomenologists have additional methods.

Thank you for your response and time, I’ll defintely look into it.

 

[TreasureVibe]

Is this identical to inositol's sensitization of the serotonin receptors in the brain?

Ray Peat on inositol:

"I think it’s very safe, if it’s pure, and it has some general cell-stabilizing effects."

 

[SOMO]

Here in California, its available with no measurable THC. I also personally would recommend trying edibles over smoking.

I'm the opposite - edibles always result in couch-lock and falling asleep for me.

Have never found an edible that doesn't put me to sleep.

 

[Frankdee20]

Is this identical to inositol's sensitization of the serotonin receptors in the brain?

Ray Peat on inositol:

Wait, when you talk of Inositol sensitizing Serotonin receptors (I believe it’s linked to 5ht2a), what do you mean ? Does it increase their density ? Increase signaling of 2A ? I never knew what to make of it. I tried it once for a week to help insomnia, and it caused anxiety one night. The same anxiety I would get if I took 5htp.

 

[astral kid 2]

Marijuana will be legalized here soon. No matter how mild the weed there has been paranoia after smoking always. No schizophrenia whatsoever, just paranoia. Is there a way I can enjoy Canadian pot without paranoia?

I'd try something like gastrodin without a doubt
Protection Against Brain Aging - page 1 | Life Extension

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Extensi...nkId=E6UWOCTBH6NBH2NU&creativeASIN=B00FPOEVK6

 

[johnwester130]

Marijuana will be legalized here soon. No matter how mild the weed there has been paranoia after smoking always. No schizophrenia whatsoever, just paranoia. Is there a way I can enjoy Canadian pot without paranoia?

I read somewhere marijuana may deplete glycine

Glycine, Before Cannabis

 

[Frankdee20]

I read somewhere marijuana may deplete glycine

Glycine, Before Cannabis

Get some magnesium Glycinate

 

[Sheik]

I've been spending a lot of time alone lately, something I had been avoiding, and I've noticed my social anxiety is basically gone when I go out.

Meditation gives you some "space" away from the patterns that have collected in your mind. It's interesting that the zen concept of meditation is "just sitting". Literally just ******* sitting there.

I think a lot of people never get a break from certain modes of thinking, and they start thinking of those modes as reality. They forget that there is more to our existence.

People seem interested in you when they sense that you're a real person and not a set of patterns. When you're a real person you're just like a cat or dog. You're letting your own intuitions guide.

I wasn't aware of the Greek concept of "epoché". It appears to be very much in line with the understanding I've developed practicing zen (and just living).

I've wondered what it would be like to have some friends over and play a game or something, and have a rule that no one can say anything for an hour or two. Just to see what it's like to interact without talking. See how to keep people interested and entertained without saying a word.

 

[dudinator]

If you have legal cannabis available I would just ask them for high CBD strains and try those.
A CBD:THC ratio of 20:1 or higher would cause no "high" at all and give you purely the medical effects of the CBD.
Something like a 2:1 CBD:THC ratio or even a 1:1 CBD:THC ratio would probably be an interesting sweet spot for still getting a slight "high" but none of the negative side effects of THC that are talked about in this thread.
Unfortunately I live in a country where I can't experiment much with those ratios. Strains with sub 0.2 % THC content are currently legally available in the EU, but those generally are in the area of 20:1 CBD:THC ratio with no "high" at all. All the illegal cannabis is of the typical high THC almost no CBD variety.
It would be nice if you could let me know about your experience with different CBD:THC ratios if you experiment with some.

Couldn't you just mix various ratios of the legal, high CBD strains, with the illegal high THC? Hardly scientific, but I'm sure you could get close enough to your desired effect by doing so.

 

[NewACC]

I think 5-ht2a is overly villified, both in mainstream and this forum (no thanks to excessive faith in correlations). It may be essential for REM sleep (which I did not realize until recently) and an important part of the human experience.

Yes it does increase cortisol and stress hormones, but that just means it's not supposed to be activated chronically, only during important moments, and that its activation of downstream stress hormones should be compensated by pro-GABA and other neurotransmitters and substances. Also some of the stress hormones it promotes (such as possibly vasopressin) may be temporally important. All that article says to me is that Mary-J is not the best substance to do this on its own, or you shouldn't get high 24/7.

I have yet to see proof either way that 5-ht2a is dispensible. The reason is that it's plausible it may excite neurons in localization and patterns that is not reproducible using other neurotransmitters or substances. We won't know for awhile. Serotonin is a massively complex network.

(Also in other articles and discussions its effects get conflated with 5-ht2c a lot, though that does not apply to this article... apparently?)
(And that said I think the postsynaptic 5-ht1 receptors which get all the good press are way overrated; this comment is limited to 5-ht2a)

I support you. I think the best antiserotonin chemicals must superagonise 5-ht1a, 5-ht5 and 5-ht2a and reversally superagonise 5-ht1b, 5-ht1c, 5-ht1d, 5-ht2b, 5-ht2c, 5-ht3, 5-ht4, 5-ht6, 5-ht7 and d2Short