Marijuana (thc) eliminates dreaming, anyone know by what mechanism/ how to offset?

[Sapien]

It’s pretty common knowledge (backed by studies) that frequent thc users have inhibited rem/ “paradoxical” sleep (dream state). When stopping, thc users often experience a “rebound effect” in which they have intense dreams as the body tries to compensate for the long period of rem sleep deprevation. Thc use is obviously problematic due to the importance of rem sleep. I personally quit cannabis due to this fact. I wonder however, if there is a way to both consume thc and still dream. I know peat advised against smoking weed, but he said it can have some beneficial effects otherwise. If one were to partake in cannabis use (ideally through edibles or vaporization), i wonder if there is any way to offset this effect on rem sleep. ( I experimented with taking cbd, taking pregnenalone with no effect on rem). Any thoughts? I scoured the internet but with no luck, many sources say it inhibits rem sleep but no one seems to be asking the question of how.

 

[redsun]

It’s pretty common knowledge (backed by studies) that frequent thc users have inhibited rem/ “paradoxical” sleep (dream state). When stopping, thc users often experience a “rebound effect” in which they have intense dreams as the body tries to compensate for the long period of rem sleep deprevation. Thc use is obviously problematic due to the importance of rem sleep. I personally quit cannabis due to this fact. I wonder however, if there is a way to both consume thc and still dream. I know peat advised against smoking weed, but he said it can have some beneficial effects otherwise. If one were to partake in cannabis use (ideally through edibles or vaporization), i wonder if there is any way to offset this effect on rem sleep. ( I experimented with taking cbd, taking pregnenalone with no effect on rem). Any thoughts? I scoured the internet but with no luck, many sources say it inhibits rem sleep but no one seems to be asking the question of how.

No you can't. This is why you cant find info anywhere about it. Cannabinoids have strong anti-glutamate effects. You need glutamate to activate REM sleep by activating cholinergic neurons. You block that, you won't get normal REM. If you try to agonize glutamate it begs the question why even use weed to begin with. Its like drinking a heavily caffeinated beverage and then immediately drinking alcohol to calm you down. Maybe it could possibly work but it makes no sense to do so.

 

[Sapien]

No you can't. This is why you cant find info anywhere about it. Cannabinoids have strong anti-glutamate effects. You need glutamate to activate REM sleep by activating cholinergic neurons. You block that, you won't get normal REM. If you try to agonize glutamate it begs the question why even use weed to begin with. Its like drinking a heavily caffeinated beverage and then immediately drinking alcohol to calm you down. Maybe it could possibly work but it makes no sense to do so.

Was unaware of glutamate/ cannabis /rem connection thanks

 

[ThinPicking]

I'm not here to endorse pot, just keen to dispel some myths. In this case that dream elimination is a given. The reality is it depends what you're using, how and your behaviour around it.

To maintain or even make your dreams more vivid you can do the following.

- Don't smoke it, use a dry herb vaporiser for shorter/sharper dose control. Allow time for what you take in the lungs to arrive in your CNS and illicit effect before you decide to keep going. Very weak edibles are possible but time to onset, effect relative to dose and half life are highly variable regardless of how uniformly they're made. If using them it should only be in the early afternoon at the latest.

- Don't use "skunk" (dank, crossbred and/or hydroponic product), resin or hash. Use "thai stick" or "jamaican" weeds. Something resembling a natural outdoor grow you could forage in the right country/climate. If you can only obtain the former, massively reduce the dose and frequency.

- Only consume in the day or early evening (vaping only) at the latest. Ideally you'll want some hours between last consumption and your head reaching a pillow.

- Resist some of the behavioural compulsions it's likely to induce, particularly around food and fluid. Maintain your usual patterns at least and compensate for some of the physiological effects at most. Cannabinoids are diuretics, I'm not sure whether it's more appropriate to describe them as sodium wasting or potassium sparing. Either way you'll lose some sodium, chloride and fluid. Ray has talked about the importance of sodium for the retention/balance of other mineral ions, go figure.

- Don't use it every day. Discipline/condition yourself.

This is the problem with all narcotics really. God given or not. The moment you break rules and patterns is the moment you shoot yourself in the foot. I do this occasionally for the lulz to colour a night. Even the "occasional" part of that could be considered a rule.

Even with discipline. There are no free lunches in this life and the piper will always be paid.

 

[Dainis Spainis]

I have been researching cannabis effect on brain for a while and this REM thing was the first I started to wonder around.

So... why REM is important in first place - in REM sleep your neuronal connections stimulated in the day (by doing stuff) re-stimulates again to form stronger connections - you learn! Acetylcholine (Ach) is involved in this a lot!

THC rise activity of enzyme which degrades Ach - acetylcholiesterase = less Ach = less dreaming, memory impaired. Some sleep gadgets can show REM reduced after THC session.

In the day, when you take THC your acetylcholine is degraded faster by acetylcholinesterase - which translates in inability to focus. Even tho you might have more dopamine (by inhibited GABA) willingness to do and learn is high and ability to do things can be high, but ability to learn and remember is strongly reduced (because of reduced Ach).

So... This is not only problem with THC. Chronic THC usage (I would say that chronic means more than 2 times per week - depends on dose, age, lifestyle) And acute THC usage and chronic THC usage is 2 completely different things. Context also makes it medicine or drug. THC will not help for slow and lazy people, it fits best for overstimulated and stressed people to calm down and induce growth factors.

You can try to use acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. Few things that does this is:

Huperzine A
Rosmarinic acid (can make you sleepy also)

Also risining acetylcholine by taking choline donors and acetyl-group donors (ALCAR) might help, but THC (d)effect on Ach is not the only one.

The big picture is that by chronically using THC you stimulate in all the cells having CB1 receptors (all neurons basically) inhibitory processes (CB1 is GPCR with G-alpha-i subunit) - which is fine if you have been stimulating those in first place, but chronic smokers are not stimulated much in any way... This inhibition in the end stimulates a lot of unnecessary growth factors which breaks a lot of things - for example makes a lot of inflammation in various ways. Example of unnecessary growth factors stimulated is eating sugars while not exercising - too much insulin.


Forskolin, caffeine and artichoke can help by balancing AC->cAMP->CREB pathway which is opposite of CB1 activation.

I would say that for beginners especially strains having 2-3% of THC is enough to make people calm, happy and high! THC strains on market now is like undiluted alcohol 96C which people are taking at 200g equivalent to alcohol dose. Dilute your THC strains with CBD/CBG strains and don't destroy your brains.

 

[Sapien]

THC rise activity of enzyme which degrades Ach - acetylcholiesterase = less Ach = less dreaming, memory impaired. Some sleep gadgets can show REM reduced after THC session.

In the day, when you take THC your acetylcholine is degraded faster by acetylcholinesterase - which translates in inability to focus. Even tho you might have more dopamine (by inhibited GABA) willingness to do and learn is high and ability to do things can be high, but ability to learn and remember is strongly reduced (because of reduced Ach).

I did some research and was not able to come to same conclusion, do you have source for this? In fact, I am finding the exact opposite, that THC inhibits ACHE (acetylcholiesterase), and increase ACH. For example, this pubmed study is even comparing its ACHE inhibitory effects to donepezil, an alzheimers drug that inhibits ACHE. "e. Our results show that not only THC and CBD are AChE inhibitors rather all other studied cannabinoids have potency to inhibit AChE", "Some of them (THC, CBN, CBDV, CBL, CBT) were found to be either more or, almost similar potent inhibitors when compared with donepezil; first line drug for treatment of Alzheimer." Cannabis Constituents and Acetylcholinesterase Interaction: Molecular Docking, In Vitro Studies and Association with CNR1 rs806368 and ACHE rs17228602

Another study ( Effects of cannabinoids on levels of acetylcholine and choline and on turnover rate of acetylcholine in various regions of the mouse brain - PubMed ) draws similar conclusions, stating: "Delta 9-THC (30 mg/kg) caused a significant elevation of ACh in all five brain areas."

And another "Conclusion: Cannabinoids showed moderate inhibitory effects on the activities of AChE and BChE enzymes, which may contribute to their modulatory effects on the cholinergic system. Further studies using cell-based and in vivo models are warranted to evaluate whether cannabinoids’ neuroprotective effects are associated with their anti-cholinesterase activities." ( Inhibitory Effects of Cannabinoids on Acetylcholinesterase and Butyrylcholinesterase Enzyme Activities )

DId you have it backward, or am I missing something.

 

[Dainis Spainis]

I did some research and was not able to come to same conclusion, do you have source for this? In fact, I am finding the exact opposite, that THC inhibits ACHE (acetylcholiesterase), and increase ACH. For example, this pubmed study is even comparing its ACHE inhibitory effects to donepezil, an alzheimers drug that inhibits ACHE. "e. Our results show that not only THC and CBD are AChE inhibitors rather all other studied cannabinoids have potency to inhibit AChE", "Some of them (THC, CBN, CBDV, CBL, CBT) were found to be either more or, almost similar potent inhibitors when compared with donepezil; first line drug for treatment of Alzheimer." Cannabis Constituents and Acetylcholinesterase Interaction: Molecular Docking, In Vitro Studies and Association with CNR1 rs806368 and ACHE rs17228602

Another study ( Effects of cannabinoids on levels of acetylcholine and choline and on turnover rate of acetylcholine in various regions of the mouse brain - PubMed ) draws similar conclusions, stating: "Delta 9-THC (30 mg/kg) caused a significant elevation of ACh in all five brain areas."

And another "Conclusion: Cannabinoids showed moderate inhibitory effects on the activities of AChE and BChE enzymes, which may contribute to their modulatory effects on the cholinergic system. Further studies using cell-based and in vivo models are warranted to evaluate whether cannabinoids’ neuroprotective effects are associated with their anti-cholinesterase activities." ( Inhibitory Effects of Cannabinoids on Acetylcholinesterase and Butyrylcholinesterase Enzyme Activities )

DId you have it backward, or am I missing something.

Broke my brains. I need to rethink my life... Well how does it makes sense then? Probably acetylcholine receptors downregulated a lot maybe? But then... All the new cannabis smokes should have crystal clear head and eagle like focus... It does not happen!

 

[Sapien]

But then... All the new cannabis smokes should have crystal clear head and eagle like focus... It does not happen!

Actually, THC does help with focus, at least for some. "A 2021 study of 1,700 students found that those with ADHD self-reported that using cannabis improved their ADHD symptoms." https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10870547211050949
Me personally I think my use was a way to manage "ADHD" symptoms. "ADHD" is related to a low dopamine state, so it makes sense why thc would help in this regard. "Cannabis has been shown to boost dopamine levels in the brain, which in turn helps stimulate mental focus. The higher the THC, the more patients tend to experience improved focus and clarity." Trouble Focusing? Here’s How Cannabis Could Help | Fluent

 

[Dainis Spainis]

So as some of the best experts in chronic THC induced brain damage pointed out that broken NMDA receptors are those which renders acetylcholine useless under chronic THC stimulation. Also high acetylcholine doesnt mean high focus and good REM. But it is true that THC is acetylcholinesterase inhibitor but this effect is useless in this case.

This THC impact on NMDA needs to be explored.

 

[Sumbody]

It’s pretty common knowledge (backed by studies) that frequent thc users have inhibited rem/ “paradoxical” sleep (dream state). When stopping, thc users often experience a “rebound effect” in which they have intense dreams as the body tries to compensate for the long period of rem sleep deprevation. Thc use is obviously problematic due to the importance of rem sleep. I personally quit cannabis due to this fact. I wonder however, if there is a way to both consume thc and still dream. I know peat advised against smoking weed, but he said it can have some beneficial effects otherwise. If one were to partake in cannabis use (ideally through edibles or vaporization), i wonder if there is any way to offset this effect on rem sleep. ( I experimented with taking cbd, taking pregnenalone with no effect on rem). Any thoughts? I scoured the internet but with no luck, many sources say it inhibits rem sleep but no one seems to be asking the question of how.

At a point in my life I smoked weed every day, often times, multiple times in a day. For well over a decade.

I still smoke occasionally, but more like 1 to 3 times a month at best these days.

Even as a "stoner" I never had a problem dreaming. I have had wild vivid dreams, multiple dreams in a night, lucid dreams, scary dreams, sad dreams, happy dreams, weird dreams, even educational dreams.

This is the first time I have heard that smoking bud inhibits dreams. This might only be more likely for select individuals.

Try taking something like magnesium and B6 before bed. Maybe even glycine or have some gelatin. When I take mag+B6, I have almost too many awesome dreams. In one night. It's frustrating because I want to remember them all and think about them the next day. Too many to list!

 

[Sapien]

This might only be more likely for select individuals

I don't know what to say to the fact that you were able to dream when using thc daily. This is very rare to my knowledge. THC inhibiting rem sleep is common knowledge ( Huberman/walker, does thc disrupt sleep? ), "your dreams are disappearing in a cloud of pot smoke and its a problem
) (etc etc) Everyone I know who smokes report the same thing, that they don't dream unless they take a break.

 

[Sapien]

Also high acetylcholine doesnt mean (...) good REM

This study shows that acetylcholine is essential for REM. It supports what redsun said about glutamate:

Cannabinoids have strong anti-glutamate effects. You need glutamate to activate REM sleep by activating cholinergic neurons. You block that, you won't get normal REM.

This all makes me wonder if the "gaba good ,glutamate bad" ideology on the form is a bit reductionistic. Many are taking sups that increase gaba/ reduce glutamate, i wonder if things like diamant can be harmful in the sense that they inhibit rem sleep.
Ironically, though he is selling diamant, an NMDA antagonist, Haidut stated that "Some levels of glutamate are certainly physiological."

How would one proceed knowing that glutamate can cause depressive symptoms yet is essential for rem sleep?

 

[Sumbody]

I don't know what to say to the fact that you were able to dream when using thc daily. This is very rare to my knowledge. THC inhibiting rem sleep is common knowledge ( Huberman/walker, does thc disrupt sleep? ), "your dreams are disappearing in a cloud of pot smoke and its a problem
) (etc etc) Everyone I know who smokes report the same thing, that they don't dream unless they take a break.

Interesting.

I have had a lot of friends who were, and some still are, daily pot smokers and I have heard them describe dreams they have had before. Or joke about a silly dream that they had.

 

[Sapien]

Interesting.

I have had a lot of friends who were, and some still are, daily pot smokers and I have heard them describe dreams they have had before. Or joke about a silly dream that they had.

I would get crazy dreams after just one day of abstaining, perhaps they hadn't smoked that night or something. Smoking at mid day but not before bed can allow for some REM

 

[Sapien]

i wonder if things like diamant can be harmful in the sense that they inhibit rem sleep.

A quick search for "diamant rem" on the form confirmed my suspicion. One member (constatine) in the diamant thread stated:"Sleep disturbances (decreased REM stages 1 and 3) can (and most likely will, even if you don't notice it) be caused my memantine (and hence Diamant). Perhaps taking supplements that boost REM sleep would help."
and also "the mechanism of action is probably via NMDA which is also the likely mechanism of action of Diamant's sleep disruption (being an antagonist). I don't know what results one would get when taking both supplements at the same time. You could also try magnesium. Magnesium shows promise for bettering sleep but it is a natural NMDA antagonist and will likely potentiate many of Diamant's effects (which is probably a good thing). But if Diamant is interfering with sleep via NMDA antagonism further antagonism can obviously make it worse (assuming magnesium is a strict antagonist and not a modulator or what not). Considering these two substances work with NMDA I think they have the potential to treat the root cause of the sleep disturbance. Though there is the possibility they will nullify or amplify any of Diamant's many effects."

This is the case with other NMDA antagonists such as Ketamine, " Potentiation of ketamine effects on the spiking activity in the lateral geniculate nucleus by rapid eye movement (REM) sleep deprivation "

If any knowledge can be taken from this thread, it is that complete antagonization of NMDA might not be ideal, due to its REM inhibition.

Although,magnesium, which can serve as an NMDA antagonist itself, doesn't seem to inhibit rem, in your experience and mine... hmm.

When I take mag+B6, I have almost too many awesome dreams. I

In conclusion, magnesium> ketamine, LOL.

 

[Funnywhensunny]

I have been smoking every night for 25+ years. I barely sleep if, at all I do not toke and often need a puff in the middle of the night to get back to sleep. I had a sleep disorder since birth and cannabis has been nothing short of a miracle. I dream on a regular basis. Last night I dreamed doctors where forcing a PCR test up my nose while I was shouting, “No! no-No!.”

 

[Dainis Spainis]

Terms:
acetylcholine Nicotinic α7 receptor (α7)
acetylcholine(Ach)
acetylcholinesterase (AchE)
Long-Term Potentiation (LTP)

My friends pointed me to the Nicotinic α7 receptor and NMDA receptor connection in a chronic THC abuse case.

Nicotinic α7 receptor activation selectively potentiates the function of NMDA receptors in glutamatergic terminals of the nucleus accumbens - one of the ways how acetylcholine receptors are very important for memory.

Nicotinic α7 receptor activation selectively potentiates the function of NMDA receptors in glutamatergic terminals of the nucleus accumbens

We here provide functional and immunocytochemical evidence supporting the co-localization and functional interaction between nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs) and N-methyl-D-aspartic acid receptors (NMDARs) in glutamatergic terminals of the nucleus accumbens (NAc). Immunocytochemical...

www.frontiersin.org

Also, CBD inhibits the Ach effect on α7, and THC potentiates, both together - inhibits. Mechanism unknown.

https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1096/fasebj.2018.32.1_supplement.533.78

So taking those 2 papers together I would conclude...

So if THC alone is used, or joints are smoked with tobacco, which contains nicotine, which also agonizes α7, which are present on the glutamatergic neuron that activates nearby dopaminergic neuron which also has α7. In such case, I propose that α7 gets overstimulated, desensitized, and internalized. So at night, you don't smoke, nicotine and THC (smoked) half-life is ~1h. What could your, probably, elevated (because of AchE) Ach do in this case if there's no α7 left?

So this is not the end of the bad news. There are also receptor heteromers - new types of receptors which usually form when nearby receptors get overstimulated at the same time. There are several heteromers related to chronic THC known already like D1-D2 and CB1-5HT2A. And in this case, there's a CB1-NMDA heteromer. In this case, CB1 stimulation internalizes the NMDA receptor with it leaving cells with reduced NMDA receptor count which leads to memory dysfunction.

The cannabinoid receptor 1 associates with NMDA receptors to produce glutamatergic hypofunction: implications in psychosis and schizophrenia

The endocannabinoid system is widespread throughout the central nervous system and its type 1 receptor (CB1) plays a crucial role in preventing the neurotoxicity caused by activation of glutamate N-methyl--aspartate receptors (NMDARs). Indeed, it is the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In the end, THC is abusing NMDA receptors in a direct way (CB1-NMDA heteromers) and an indirect way by inhibiting AchE, making α7 more sensitive, and if theres also nicotine present then it is hell for α7 receptors which gets heavily underregulated. Both of those actions result in a strong reduction of NMDA receptor count which is very important for LTP.

Sugestions: use CBD with extra powerfull high-grade overpowered THC strains. Add CBG (as slight CB1 antagonist it can reduce damage). Don't take nicotine with THC.

 

[Sapien]

Also, CBD inhibits the Ach effect on α7, and THC potentiates, both together - inhibits. Mechanism unknown.
https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1096/fasebj.2018.32.1_supplement.533.78

Wow, interesting! I have always wondered about the potential downside of the trend to breed high thc, low cbd strains. When considering THCs inhibition of dreaming, supplementing cbd was the first thing I tried. It didn't work, but perhaps I wasn't taking enough.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[JessicaBaker]

It's a bummer, but luckily there are some ways to counteract it. First off, try switching up how you consume.

 

[JessicaBaker]

It's a bummer, but luckily there are some ways to counteract it. First off, try switching up how you consume. Edibles and vaping are great options that can be less harsh on the lungs and may have a different effect on your sleep. Also, if you're looking to try out some new strains, I recommend checking out some of the best cannabis seed banks out there. They have all sorts of different varieties and can help you find something that fits your needs. As for offsetting the lack of REM sleep, there's no surefire solution, but some peeps have reported success with taking a break from smoking every now and then to let your brain catch up on dreams.