Being Forced To Wear Masks. Yes No Maybe So

[Attakai]

If you're going to demand a source, you go first, and cite yours.

What I've referenced are the total numbers tests, which I obtained from Home <-(JHU)
You brought up that they only tested via CT scan, I'm intrigued if that is the case and would like to see a source to verifiy.
You don't need to address the population percentage tested either if you don't want to, it's all good.

 

[Energizer]

The crazy part is, they didn't believe any of the things they are currently suggesting even 5 months ago. On a forum where the motto is "Percieve, Think, Act."

True that. I don't think ironically many of the people that even come on here to this site to defend Corona tyranny (especially new posters) and pseudoscience even bother listening to Peat's interviews where he gives his own opinions on the Corona hysteria.

 

[BingDing]

China hasn't done any tests. They diagnosed people by a CT Scan, which doesn't detect viruses.

This is pure, unmitigated, horse manure. And a good example of why I think @tankasnowgod is an unreliable poster and should be banned from the RP forum. IIRC, @tankasnowgod posted the exact same message several months ago and hasn't learned a single thing since then.

China, and most everyone else in the world, used CT scans as a preliminary screening step to avoid pneumonia patients from being diagnosed as Covid-19 patients. CT scans of pneumonia patients show a glassy, bilateral image of the lungs (meaning both lungs look the same). Covid-19 patients don't present the same way.

China, and most everyone else in the world, followed up the CT scans with testing for Covid-19. And in untold numbers of times. IMO, @tankasnowgod relates an utterly delusional narrative of the facts.

 

[managing]

True that. I don't think ironically many of the people that even come on here to this site to defend Corona tyranny (especially new posters) and pseudoscience even bother listening to Peat's interviews where he gives his own opinions on the Corona hysteria.

LOL. You virtue signal on authoritarianism and then try to pull rank by denigrating how recently some posters have joined the forum.

I have read many things by Peat on coronavirus, but probably not all. If you are aware of him addressing mask wearing or hospitals being overwhelmed, I'm interested in considering what he might say about those things.

 

[Lejeboca]

I mean, this is literally how we conducted our lives for the past 4 decades at least (more like centuries, really), knowing that there were hundreds of thousands of viruses out there with potentially millions or trillions more. And also other potential pathogens, like bacteria, fungi, mold, and who knows what else. Why the radical change now for a single virus what appears to be, at worst, similar to that of the flu, which we deal with every year? And in the summer no less, when we know all diseases are much more mild, as confirmed by the low death rate?

+1. This is a trillion-$ question: Why now after being around viruses as long as humanity exists? Maybe @managing can enlighten us…

 

[boris]

If you are aware of him addressing mask wearing

Ray Peat (21:49): "Even when people are alone watching down a 3 lined street with no one within 200 feet, wearing a mask in the hot weather obviously suffering, it's, I don't know, pitiful or something, to see such terrible obedience."

 

[managing]

+1. This is a trillion-$ question: Why now after being around viruses as long as humanity exists? Maybe @managing can enlighten us…

Because this one is much more easily passed than just about any we've encountered before and is particularly deadly to a certain cross section of the population. And this effect is particularly magnified when hospitals become overwhelmed. And, finally, because the level of exposure seems to be particularly critical. It is (not yet entirely proven) likely that low levels of exposure, even among otherwise vulnerable individuals, may not result in serious illness. On the other hand, there are numerous cases of low risk individuals who are exposed to very high levels resulting in death. So, a simple measure like wearing a face mask is cheap and easy protection for yourself and others.

This is very simple and not doctrinal. You simply look at the evidence and follow it to the probable conclusion. Anybody can claim that "Perceive. Think. Act" favors their position. But the truth is most people, including here "Act. Think. Perceive."

 

[managing]

Ray Peat (21:49): "Even when people are alone watching down a 3 lined street with no one within 200 feet, wearing a mask in the hot weather obviously suffering, it's, I don't know, pitiful or something, to see such terrible obedience."

Sure. I don't disagree with this. I generally don't wear one outdoors at all, except when unloading a truck or something of the like (where I might get close to somebody else). Around here it is only required indoors, not out. I have seen people running or on bikes wearing masks and I think "are you crazy". Is THIS really what you've been arguing about the whole time? If so, we can shake hands and agree. That would be silly.

 

[Attakai]

This is pure, unmitigated, horse manure. And a good example of why I think @tankasnowgod is an unreliable poster and should be banned from the RP forum. IIRC, @tankasnowgod posted the exact same message several months ago and hasn't learned a single thing since then.

China, and most everyone else in the world, used CT scans as a preliminary screening step to avoid pneumonia patients from being diagnosed as Covid-19 patients. CT scans of pneumonia patients show a glassy, bilateral image of the lungs (meaning both lungs look the same). Covid-19 patients don't present the same way.

China, and most everyone else in the world, followed up the CT scans with testing for Covid-19. And in untold numbers of times. IMO, @tankasnowgod relates an utterly delusional narrative of the facts.

I think you're being a little too hostile, people are misinformed on matters all the time and that shouldn't be a grounds for being banned.
Plus I don't want censorship on this forum even if I disagree it.

 

[boris]

@managing In some countries/cities it's mandatory to wear them outside at all times.

Apart from that there is no good evidence that surgical masks or the simple cloths that are being recommended protect you from catching the virus. Most "important" mainstream virologists and epidemiologists / health officials agreed on that. They scoffed at a supposed protection from these masks, it was common sense to the professionals. The masks were introduced at a later point and then suddenly they all changed their opinion based on poorly done new studies in unrealistic settings.

 

[achillea]

Remember Rosa Parks? We are free
Masks Don’t Work: A Review of Science Relevant to COVID-19 Social Policy

 

[managing]

@managing In some countries/cities it's mandatory to wear them outside at all times.

Apart from that there is no good evidence that surgical masks or the simple cloths that are being recommend protect you from catching the virus. Most "important" mainstream virologists and epidemiologists / health officials agreed on that. They scoffed at a supposed protection from these masks, it was common sense to the professionals. The masks were introduced at a later point and then suddenly they all changed their opinion based on poorly done new studies in unrealistic settings.

Like I suggested, outdoors in close proximity to others, I would agree. But its pretty senseless for someone to be walking alone and wearing a mask. Still, even when I go for a road ride, I take one with me just in case.

As for your second paragraph, its a pretty transparently fanciful and self serving mischaracterization of both professional opinion (not that an anti-authoritarian would care what authorities think) and current research.

But, hey, we agree that if nobody is around (or likely to be) a mask is unnecessary.

 

[achillea]

I was asked the other day about not wearing a mask and told them I had an exemption. . I said are you going to ask me what it is? They know not to ask.

 

[boris]

As for your second paragraph, its a pretty transparently fanciful and self serving mischaracterization of both professional opinion (not that an anti-authoritarian would care what authorities think) and current research.

How so? You are really good at twisting my words but so far not much else.

I simply summarized what was happening: Professionals literally say the masks are ridiculous, masks are made mandatory, professionals use new poorly done research to justify a change of heart.

 

[managing]

I was asked the other day about not wearing a mask and told them I had an exemption. . I said are you going to ask me what it is? They know not to ask.

So . . . you lied because you are special and deserve special treatment? Do you mean to imply that you intimidated them in order to obtain this special treatment?

 

[boris]

@managing I understand at this point nothing will convince you. So if you wear your mask and you run across me not wearing a mask, you believe you will be protected from my deadly breath right? I agree to shake hands on that

 

[managing]

@managing I understand at this point nothing will convince you. So if you wear your mask and you run across me not wearing a mask, you believe you will be protected from my deadly breath right? I agree to shake hands on that

Much more so if you wear a mask too, which any decent person would do under the circumstances.

 

[boris]

See, In my opinion a decent person with the access of information you have here would be respectful enough to (unobstructedly) breath some fresh air and keep their lungs working like they should so they can stay healthy and not get sick.

 

[achillea]

IT IS BS

World Health Organization, CDC disagree on mask use in public
• Jun 1, 2020
World Health Organization, CDC disagree on mask use in public
WHO guidance: Healthy people should wear masks only when ‘taking care of’ coronavirus patients
POSTED 3:20 PM, MAY 29, 2020, BY FOX TELEVISION STATIONS
WHO guidance: Healthy people should wear masks only when ‘taking care of’ coronavirus patients
WHO says there is no need for healthy people to wear face masks, days after the CDC told all Americans to cover their faces
Julia Naftulin
Apr 7, 2020, 12:43 PM
Coronavirus: WHO advises to wear masks in public areas
• 6 June 2020




faWhy experts say healthy people should stop wearing masks
By: NewsyPosted at 12:27 PM, Mar 26, 2020 https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...erts-say-healthy-people-should-stop-wearing-m

U.S. health officials say Americans shouldn’t wear face masks to prevent coronavirus — here are 3 other reasons not to wear them
Published: March 2, 2020 at 12:47 p.m. ET
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...to-wear-facemasks-because-of-coronavirus-2020

US Surgeon General: Face masks shouldn't be worn at 'expense of social distancing'
Saturday, April 4, 2020
US Surgeon General: Face masks shouldn't be worn at 'expense of social distancing'


Lancet questioning of face masks 3/20
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

We compared face mask use recommendations by different health authorities Despite the consistency in the recommendation that symptomatic individuals and those in health-care settings should use face masks, discrepancies were observed in the general public and community settings.
1
For example, the US Surgeon General advised against buying masks for use by healthy people. One important reason to discourage widespread use of face masks is to preserve limited supplies for professional use in health-care settings. Universal face mask use in the community has also been discouraged with the argument that face masks provide no effective protection against coronavirus infection.


doi: 10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x. Epub 2011 Dec 21.
to Prevent Transmission of Influenza: The Use of Masks and Respirators A Systematic Review of the Scientific Evidence
Faisal Bin-Reza 1, Vicente Lopez Chavarrias, Angus Nicoll, Mary E Chamberland

Eight of nine retrospective observational studies found that mask and/or respirator use was independently associated with a reduced risk of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). Findings, however, may not be applicable to influenza and many studies were suboptimal. None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.



. 1979 Oct;140(4):610-3.
doi: 10.1093/infdis/140.4.610.
Viral Shedding Patterns of Children With Influenza B Infection
C B Hall, R G Douglas Jr, J M Geiman, M P Meagher

The quantities of virus shed correlated significantly with severity of illness and fever score, but not with sex, type of illness, or occurrence of myositis. These results suggest that the degree of clinical illness may be directly related to the cytotoxic effects of the virus and to the transmissibility of the disease.


Syed Q, Sopwith W, Regan M, Bellis MA. Behind the mask. Journey through an epidemic: some observations of contrasting public health responses to SARS. J Epidemiol Community Health. 2003;57(11):855-856. doi:10.1136/jech.57.11.855
Though of uncertain protective benefit, the wearing of masks may have contributed to the awareness of the collective and personal responsibility in combating infectious disease. Active and empowered involvement of the general public in implementing and cooperating with public health control measures supported by national and international authorities has clearly helped to bring SARS under control. The public health significance of such potent symbols as the face mask may be considered in strategies to tackle other emerging infections.

J R Soc Interface. 2009 Dec 6; 6(Suppl 6): S783–S790.
Published online 2009 Sep 22. doi: 10.1098/rsif.2009.0302.focus
Aerosol transmission of influenza A virus: a review of new studies


Direct measurement of influenza viruses in aerosols produced by cough or sneezing has not been reported in the literature. This is in part because of the significant experimental difficulties in working with bioaerosols, including the low concentration of particles and, in the case of influenza virus, the relative insensitivity of virus detection by culture methods, the lability of the viruses and potential inactivation caused by the aerosol-sampling methodology
An important limitation of such a study is that RT–PCR cannot establish the infectivity of the viral particles detected; one must make inferences based on other studies that looked at the biological decay of aerosolized influenza viruses

This distinction of ‘short-range aerosol transmission’ is not merely academic; aerosolized particles would readily penetrate or circumvent ordinary surgical masks, and penetration of aerosolized influenza viruses into the LRT where they can initiate infection would account well for the association of aerosol transmission and severe disease.

Uncertainties about the transmission routes of 2019 novel coronavirus
First published: 04 March 2020

Up to now, the outline of transmission routes of SARS‐CoV‐2 has not yet been drawn. More efforts must be made to get the full picture of transmission so that public health measures can be adopted timely by government to reduce further spread within China and beyond.
Clinical Review State of the Art Review
Facemasks for the prevention of infection in healthcare and community settings
BMJ 2015; 350 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.h694 (Published 09 April 2015)Cite this as: BMJ 2015;350:h694

Several randomised clinical trials of facemasks have been conducted in community and healthcare settings, using widely varying interventions, including mixed interventions (such as masks and handwashing), and diverse outcomes. Of the nine trials of facemasks identified in community settings, in all but one, facemasks were used for respiratory protection of well people. They found that facemasks and facemasks plus hand hygiene may prevent infection in community settings, subject to early use and compliance. Two trials in healthcare workers favoured respirators for clinical respiratory illness. The use of reusable cloth masks is widespread globally, particularly in Asia, which is an important region for emerging infections, but there is no clinical research to inform their use and most policies offer no guidance on them. Health economic analyses of facemasks are scarce and the few published cost effectiveness models do not use clinical efficacy data. The lack of research on facemasks and respirators is reflected in varied and sometimes conflicting policies and guidelines. Further research should focus on examining the efficacy of facemasks against specific infectious threats such as influenza and tuberculosis, assessing the efficacy of cloth masks, investigating common practices such as reuse of masks, assessing compliance, filling in policy gaps, and obtaining cost effectiveness data using clinical efficacy estimates.

Most studies were with infected people
We recruited volunteers with influenza-like illness from the Lowell, MA community, primarily among students and staff of the University of Massachusetts, beginning January 29 and ending March 12, 2009.

A limitation of our study is that we recruited patients with certain signs and symptoms or who were positive on a rapid test or had fever, and therefore our data could be biased towards patients with higher viral loads [21]. However, we still observed significant inter-individual variation and modeling suggests that cases with higher viral loads are disproportionately important in the spread of influenza


Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks Nancy H. L. Leung  1 , Daniel K. W. Chu1 , Eunice Y. C. Shiu1 , Kwok-Hung Chan2 , James J. McDevitt3 , Benien J. P. Hau1,4, Hui-Ling Yen  1 , Yuguo Li5 , Dennis K. M. Ip1 , J. S. Malik Peiris1 , Wing-Hong Seto1,6, Gabriel M. Leung1 , Donald K. Milton7,8 and Benjamin J. Cow
Surgical face masks were originally introduced to protect patients from wound infection and contamination from surgeons (the wearer) during surgical procedures, and were later adopted to protect healthcare workers against acquiring infection from their patients. However, most of the existing evidence on the filtering efficacy of face masks and respirators comes from in vitro experiments with nonbiological particles9,10, which may not be generalizable to infectious respiratory virus droplets. There is little information on the efficacy of face masks in filtering respiratory viruses and reducing viral release from an individual with respiratory infections8 , and most research has focused on influenza11,12
We also demonstrated the efficacy of surgical masks to reduce coronavirus detection and viral copies in large respiratory droplets and in aerosols (Table 1b). This has important implications for control of COVID-19, suggesting that surgical face masks could be used by ill people to reduce onward transmission. Among the samples collected without a face mask, we found that the majority of participants with influenza virus and coronavirus infection did not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols, whereas for rhinovirus we detected virus in aerosols in 19 of 34 (56%) participants (compared to 4 of 10 (40%) for influenza and 8 of 23 (35%) for coronavirus). For those who did shed virus in respiratory droplets and aerosols, viral load in both tended to be low
Another limitation is that we did not confirm the infectivity of coronavirus or rhinovirus detected in exhaled breath.

 

[BingDing]

I think you're being a little too hostile, people are misinformed on matters all the time and that shouldn't be a grounds for being banned.
Plus I don't want censorship on this forum even if I disagree it.

@Attakai Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I do consider whether I am being hostile or not.

In this case, I don't think I am being either hostile or unreasonable. @tankasnowgod has spent the last 5 months relentlessly pounding a single point of view, without any thought of any other point of view. Much like Trump. Neither seem able to even conceive of a reality where racial and gender equality really matter.