Ancient Chinese Were Peatarians

[sugar daddy]

Starch avoidance for immortality! :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigu_(avoiding_grains)

 

[sugar daddy]

"In ancient times, the people fed on herbaceous plants and drank [only] water, picked fruit from shrubs and trees and ate the meat of oysters and clams."

seems better than soya!

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Starch avoidance for immortality! :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigu_(avoiding_grains)

Are you suggesting Peat is anti-starch?

He eats ground up corn flour and turnips when he's in Mexico. That's starch.

"There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches." - Ray Peat

"better foods" in that quote means fruit. Of course fruit is the best. If you can get it ripe and sweet. And get enough of it to eat every single day. And have the patience for a ripening schedule. No one does a ripening schedule except this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5YyhICtM9A

“Two pounds of well-cooked mashed potato has the protein value similar to a liter of milk, about 33 grams of protein. A person would be able to live for a long time on two or three liters of either milk or 4-6 pounds of potatoes per day. The milk drinker would eventually need to supplement iron, the potato eaters would need to supplement vitamin A, possibly B12, but both of them are nearly perfect foods.” - Ray Peat

Here are 116 quotes by Ray Peat on endotoxin:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/1 ... endotoxin/

Out of 116 quotes, only 2 mention starch. Two.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Starch avoidance for immortality! :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigu_(avoiding_grains)

Grain avoidance in china? White rice is a grain.

That link seems weird. The Chinese lived off a grain, white rice, for a long, long time.

No diabetes. No endotoxemia, until recently.

 

[sugar daddy]

"when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches"
Yes he doesn't mind potatoes and some corn but its fairly clear he thinks starches aren't optimal.

It was a light hearted post!
I dont actually think by simply avoid starch you can live forever.
I just thought it was an interesting look at ancient Chinese beliefs and culture.

 

[sugar daddy]

Chill out!
I'm not anti starch I eat white pitta bread everyday.

the point of the wiki is that it's about Taoist ideas that the five grains should be avoided and that the agricultural system is a deviation all from the purity of the ancient 'way'.

I'm not endorsing this idea as some sort of fact I just thought it might interest people from a Peat perspective.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It seems to be more about fasting and religious/spiritual things. It was also long before current knowledge about logical daily calories.

 

[sugar daddy]

OK so not of interest to you no harm done :)

 

[halken]

There is a lot of truth to this. Herbs like liquorice root, habiscus, ginseng and matcha can be extremely beneficial to one's health.

I also agree that most starches are worth avoiding (excluding some tubers like white potato).

Grains are death (excluding white rice).

Fruit and animal foods are king.

 

[Such_Saturation]

For the future, don't tell anyone you avoid starch if you want to survive around here

 

[Westside PUFAs]

For the future, don't tell anyone you avoid starch if you want to survive around here

Such_Confabulation,

It's interesting that someone like Anthony Colpo, author of "Whole Grains, Empty Promises" actually eats white rice:

Quotes by Anthony Colpo:

"I explained clearly why I eat white rice on my website, but evidently you missed it, so I’ll briefly recap: it is yet another option that allows me to bump up my carbohydrate intake to meet my high-carb requirements, has a low anti-nutrient content, low allergenicity, and is free of that troublesome protein, gluten. And, when combined with my lovingly brewed pumpkin soup, it tastes damn good."

"nor have you provided any reason as to why I should not eat white rice or any evidence that white rice consumption is harmful. The Japanese, for whom white rice is a staple, don’t seem to be doing too badly…Like the Japanese, I do not subsist solely on white rice, I eat a variety of antioxidant- and nutrient-rich foods which by the way contain, among other things, manganese and copper."

"I myself eat potatoes and white rice, two “neolithic” carb sources that nevertheless have a relatively low anti-nutrient content and a low incidence of allergenicity. I do, however, strongly recommend combining these high-GI items with low-carbohydrate/high-fiber green and orange vegetables to temper their glycemic effects."

"My personal favourite is to consume white rice with a delicious pumpkin soup I brew up using diced pumpkin and beef bones. I let it simmer for hours, and the result is a creamy gelatin-rich mixture that not only has attained legend status among my family and friends, but does a great job of moderating the glycemic effect when mixed with white rice."

"White rice has a similar GI to brown rice but superior taste and lower anti-nutrient content. Which is probably why the white version has also been the preferred choice of cultures all around the world for thousands of years. Yet health authorities insist the brown version is superior because of its fibre content; never mind that cereal fibre was never designed for the human intestinal tract and has produced adverse affects in controlled clinical trials."

http://anthonycolpo.com

 

[Such_Saturation]

Yes, and white sugar has five times the carbohydrate content of white rice, and a lower "GI".

 

[narouz]

“Two pounds of well-cooked mashed potato has the protein value similar to a liter of milk, about 33 grams of protein. A person would be able to live for a long time on two or three liters of either milk or 4-6 pounds of potatoes per day. The milk drinker would eventually need to supplement iron, the potato eaters would need to supplement vitamin A, possibly B12, but both of them are nearly perfect foods.” - Ray Peat

Just keepin' it real.

"The liquid part of the potato, in between the starch grains...
has the equivalent of amino acids, besides some proteins.
These are the keto acids, which can be used by the brain and heart
as a substitute for sugar or fatty acids and are really an ideal
anti-stress fuel and can instantly turn into amino acids as needed.
And so, apart from the starch, the potato is an amazing food."

an excerpted Peat quote from a radio show
Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in Context!
hosted by Josh & Jeanne Rubin
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... in-context

 

[narouz]

He eats ground up corn flour and turnips when he's in Mexico. That's starch.

--------------------------

Somebody emailed Peat about his mention of turnips in a previous email.
His response is somewhere here on the forum.
He said something like
that seldom eats them--
just had a few small ones because he likes the taste.
We had a thread exploring turnips.
Here is a sampling of what we turned up: :)

This one says for 100g boiled: 5g carbs of which 2g fibre, 3g sugar (so ~0 starch, right?)
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2700/2

Yes, water. If you check the bottom of nutritiondatas page it lists water as 119g out of a total 136g.

But, turnips are 4% carbohydrates. Hardly bread or pasta.

On the "corn flour":
Peat doesn't recommend untreated corn flour.
He says corn flour treated with lime or ashes in the traditional Mexican way
is vastly better,
though it still has a lot of starch.
He would seem to eat that masa harina from time to time
because he has commented that foods made with it are delicious.
But I don't think I've ever heard him mention it in the many responses he has made
to questions like:
"Hey Dr. Peat, what did you have to eat today?"

 

[narouz]

Are you suggesting Peat is anti-starch?

From the KMUD interview of February 15th.
KMUD: Weight Gain, Foamy Urine, Fats, Light Therapy, Dreams, -- 2-15-2013

The questioner is the KMUD co-host, Sarah Murray.
Go to the 48 minute mark of the interview:

SM: "I guess what you're saying is 400 calories from orange juice
is not comparative to 400 calories from potatoes or rice."

Ray Peat: "...uh, definitely not. It [the orange juice] stimulates your metabolism and suppresses
the stress hormones."

SM: "Whereas 400 calories from baked potato and rice would increase your stress hormones
and suppress your metabolism?"

RP: "Yeah. And then there's the matter of the starch particles, that if you don't have some saturated fat
with them some of the starch particles can set up a whole pattern of stress and injury by entering
the blood stream."

-------

"I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements. It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction."

--Dr. Ray Peat
"Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones"
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml

-------

Ray Peat in
Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml


"The starch-based diet, emphasizing grains, beans, nuts, and vegetables, has been promoted with a variety of justifications. When people are urged to reduce their fat and sugar consumption, they are told to eat more starch. Starch stimulates the appetite, promotes fat synthesis by stimulating insulin secretion, and sometimes increases the growth of bacteria that produce toxins. It is often associated with allergens, and according to Gerhard Volkheimer, whole starch grains can be "persorbed" from the intestine directly into the blood stream where they may block arterioles, causing widely distributed nests of cell-death. I have heard dietitians urge the use of "complex carbohydrates" (starch) instead of sugar. In the first physiology lab I took, we fed rats a large blob of moist cornstarch with a stomach tube, and then after waiting a few minutes, were told to dissect the rat to find out "how far the starch had gone." In such a short time, we were surprised to find that not a trace of the starch could be found. The professor's purpose was to impress us with the rapidity with which starch is digested and absorbed. Various studies have demonstrated that starch (composed of pure glucose) raises blood glucose more quickly than sucrose (half fructose, half glucose) does. The sudden increase of blood glucose is sometimes thought to contribute to the development of diabetes, but if it does, it is probably mediated by fat metabolism and the hormones other than just insulin."

-------

Ray Peat wrote:
"There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches."

R. Peat, Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context

-------

"Per calorie, sugar is less fattening than starch, partly because it stimulates less insulin, and, when it's used with a good diet, because it increases the activity of thyroid hormone.."--Ray Peat from http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

-------

"Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."--Ray Peat, "Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context”

-------

"Any carbohydrate...that is not sugar can potentially feed bacteria [in the intestines] that produce toxins and cause systemic stress."

-Dr. Ray Peat: Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in Context!
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... in-context
(Go to approximately the 29 minute mark of the interview.)

-------

Focusing in on potatoes (around the 46 minute point)
Peat says that "potatoes are almost unique among the plant materials":

"The liquid part of the potato, in between the starch grains...
has the equivalent of amino acids, besides some proteins.
These are the keto acids, which can be used by the brain and heart
as a substitute for sugar or fatty acids and are really an ideal
anti-stress fuel and can instantly turn into amino acids as needed.
And so, apart from the starch, the potato is an amazing food."

Dr. Ray Peat: Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in Context!
by Josh & Jeanne Rubin
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... in-context

-------

from Dr. Peat:

"In an old experiment, a rat was tube-fed ten grams of corn-starch paste, and then anesthetized. Ten minutes after the massive tube feeding, the professor told the students to find how far the starch had moved along the alimentary canal. No trace of the white paste could be found, demonstrating the speed with which starch can be digested and absorbed. The very rapid rise of blood sugar stimulates massive release of insulin, and rapidly converts much of the carbohydrate into fat.

It was this sort of experiment that led to the concept of "glycemic index," that ranks foods according to their ability to raise the blood sugar. David Jenkins, in 1981, knew enough about the old studies of starch digestion to realize that the dietitians had created a dangerous cult around the “complex carbohydrates,” and he did a series of measurements that showed that starch is more “glycemic” than sucrose. But he simply used the amount of increase in blood glucose during the first two hours after ingesting the food sample, compared to that following ingestion of pure glucose, for the comparison, neglecting the physiologically complex facts, all of the processes involved in causing a certain amount of glucose to be present in the blood during a certain time. (Even the taste of sweetness, without swallowing anything, can stimulate the release of glucagon, which raises blood sugar.)"

R. Peat, Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context

-------

-The interview "Sugar Part 1" with the Herb Doctors:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22195338/Kmud_S ... ritalk.mp3

Go to about the 19:00 or 20:00 mark for some fairly damning views from Peat on starches
as a source of carbohydrates/sugars.

Also, more generally, a very thorough discussion on the basics of sugars and carbohydrates, healthy and unhealthy.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Just keepin' it real.

narouz! You finally quoted me! You've been ignoring me ever since I started posting here.

Ultimately, if someone wanted to know Peat's basic view on starch, the only quote they need to read is the "even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health" one, and take it from there. The "starches that aren't quickly digested quote and the fact that out of 116 quotes on endotoxin only 2 mention starch shouldn't be ignored like it is by everyone who is anti-starch and tries to paint Peat as purely anti-starch himself. With the audio clips you pointed out, contradictions come into play a bit. But it's fine. Every scientist contradicts themselves. You can view his pro-starch quotes and his anti-starch ones. I think his anti ones are more from a "Peat biohacking" point of view, like someone with really impaired digestion. But then again, if someone has impaired digestion and they can't eat starch, then I don't know what they are going to eat to stay satiated long term, without eating too much fat.

"Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.” - RP

"Besides avoiding foods containing fermentable fibers and starches that resist quick digestion, eating fibrous foods that contain antibacterial chemicals, such as bamboo shoots or raw carrots, helps to reduce endotoxin and serotonin.” - RP

“For example, fruits have many advantages over grains, besides the difference between sugar and starch. Bread and pasta consumption are strongly associated with the occurrence of diabetes, fruit consumption has a strong inverse association.” - RP - of course fruit is the best. I'm sure he get's some good stone fruit and other fruits in Oregon in the summer. But thats just summer, the rest of the time he's got OJ. It works for him. Bread and pasta are different than rice and potatoes, and it's usually the stuff people eat with the bread and pasta that causes problems. Bread is made with a good amount of oil too. The fact that most people can't get quality fruit daily as a main source of calories makes starch very appealing.

"In the Peat cult , many often misrepresent Peat’s writings and suggest that Peat is “anti starch.” In actuality, this claim is unsupported by the facts. In Peat’s writing, he does suggest in several cases that he believes that sugar is preferable to starch for several reasons. For one thing, he claims that starch creates a larger insulin response than sugar, and therefore starch is more likely to be stored as fat instead of being metabolized directly. However, Peat also acknowledges that starch can be a part of a healthy diet. This is a fact that is borne out by the longstanding cultures that rely upon starch (rice, potato, wheat, corn, etc.) as an essential part of their diet. And while many Peatarians are quick to try to cut out most starch, they overlook the fact that Peat himself speaks highly of potatoes and is on the record as stating that masa (traditionally-prepared corn), white rice, and oats are potentially valuable parts of a diet. So the starch phobia that is rampant among many in the Peat cult is unfounded. The bottom line is that Peat advocates for eating sugar and/ or starch. In the absence of adequate carbohydrates, thyroid and liver function becomes suppressed, among other potential complications (such as insulin resistance). These are often the outcomes of low carbohydrate diets, so Peat’s view on this matter isn’t actually farfetched."

Lott, Joey (2014-05-07). The Ray Peat Survival Guide: Understanding, Using, and Realistically Applying the Dietary Ideas of Dr. Ray Peat (Kindle Locations 118-120). Archangel Ink. Kindle Edition.

On a separate note from Peat's views, what are your thought on my post from this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=5859

How do you explain peoples eating starchy tubers and thriving? Of course that's not all they ate, but they sure ate a F ton of it. Ari Whitten has references in his book. There is a difference between saying "the French eat lots of butter and cheese" which is a very vague broad statement, as though you can know what every person in a modern country eats daily, there is a difference between that, and Ari Whittens references to diets from those peoples.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Yes, and white sugar has five times the carbohydrate content of white rice, and a lower "GI".

I love sucrose: http://beesandbutterflies.org/46094/hav ... et-over-it

But sucrose is half pure glucose, like starch. Are you suggesting that the other half of fructose in sucrose makes a difference? At least you can make a meal out of white rice. I love sucrose, but it's hard to make a meal out of it.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Somebody emailed Peat about his mention of turnips in a previous email.
His response is somewhere here on the forum.
He said something like
that seldom eats them--
just had a few small ones because he likes the taste.
We had a thread exploring turnips.
Here is a sampling of what we turned up: :)

This one says for 100g boiled: 5g carbs of which 2g fibre, 3g sugar (so ~0 starch, right?)
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2700/2

The blank space in the "starch" column on that page is blank because it means they did not test for starch. Sure they are lower in starch than potato but they are still a starchy tuber.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

RP: "some of the starch particles can set up a whole pattern of stress and injury by entering
the blood stream."

Show me evidence of this on humans, not rats.

 

[sugar daddy]

I'm sorry this turn into a starch war

I think that it's fairly obvious to most people that Peat thinks that starch isn't optimal.
Westside PUFAs if you don't like that idea just ignore it and carry on eating starch.
I do when I eat untreated white flour and potatoes and decently made pizza.
Don't try to convince yourself or anyone else that's it's what Ray peat thinks.