Could this be why some people think they can't drink milk?

[Blossom]

I know Wikipedia is not cutting-edge science but I was reading about lactulose (not lactose) when sunmountain mentioned it in her log and was surprised that pasteurized milk but not raw milk contains lactulose. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactulose
People who use lactulose as a drug for medical reasons can have severe gas and diarrhea. I was curious what my fellow community members might think about this? Could it be one of the reasons some people do better with raw milk or feel they can't tolerate even high quality pasteurized milk?
The amount of lactulose formed from heating milk to pasteurize it would be much lower that the amounts given medically but it would seem like to me that it's possible that those with sensitive guts could still have issues.
Surely if this were a real issue we would know about it by now? :? Please give me your opinions or any scientific data on this issue my forum friends! If I'm completely wrong I still want to know.

 

[jyb]

There could be so many reasons... But one is that store milk is so heavily processed due to homogenisation. Below are two blogs where it is discussed.

Art Ayers from Coolinfinflammation
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/dr-oz-constipation-soluble-fiber-food.html

Heating/pasteurization and torturous mixing/homogenization can force milk casein and fats into new configurations that make the proteins stackable into fibers/amyloids. These milk protein fibers may be of interest, because protein fibers are important in many diseases, e.g. type I diabetes, Alzheimer's disease. The problem with amyloids, is that these fibers form a natural repetition of the same amino acid on each of the stacked proteins. This repetitive amino acid, e.g. positively charged lysine or arginine, can provide a binding site for a similarly spaced, oppositely charged molecule, such as heparin, which is involved in dragging molecules from the surface into cells. Beta amyloid fibers with positively charged amino acids in a band along their edges are what kills nerve cells in Alzheimer's disease.

He also gave another explanation relating to bad gut flora when it has low diversity (after surgery, antibiotics or modern diets) and lacking the flora useful in handling lactose. He thinks modern diets, high in PUFA and with "diverse" foods and vegetables, lead to this bad gut flora.

Edward posted three studies showing that homogenisation, rather than pasteurisation, is inflammatory. Which makes sense when you think about the heavy processing it involves, whereas pasteurisation is "only" a brief heating to a moderate temperature (unless it's UHT pasteurisation, then I don't know).

http://edwardjedmonds.com/pastured-verses-standard-dairy-cream/

Michalski, M.-C., & Januel, C. (2006). Does homogenization affect the human health properties of cow’s milk? Trends in Food Science & Technology, 17(8), 423–437. doi:10.1016/j.tifs.2006.02.004

Poulsen, O. M., Hau, J., & Kollerup, J. (1987). Effect of homogenization and pasteurization on the allergenicity of bovine milk analysed by a murine anaphylactic shock model. Clinical Allergy, 17(5), 449–58. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2222.1987.tb02039.x

Poulsen, O. M., Nielsen, B. R., Basse, A., & Hau, J. (1990). Comparison of intestinal anaphylactic reactions in sensitized mice challenged with untreated bovine milk and homogenized bovine milk. Allergy, 45(5), 321–6. doi:10.1111/j.1398-9995.1990.tb00506.x

 

[Blossom]

That's so interesting jyb! I should probably just eat cheese and use eggshell calcium when I run out of good milk instead of buying the processed kind to tide me over. I definitely can't drink as much of the store bought variety. Thanks for the reply.

 

[jyb]

That's so interesting jyb! I should probably just eat cheese and use eggshell calcium when I run out of good milk instead of buying the processed kind to tide me over. I definitely can't drink as much of the store bought variety. Thanks for the reply.

Another reason could be poor digestibility of some of the milk proteins, shouldn't happen but what about when drinking a lot of milk and with a poorly functioning digestive system? This issue is similar to gluten proteins with the gut lining, and also reminds me of the A1/A2 protein controversy, because it is something that only has a potential but shouldn't happen if one has a healthy gut. Fermentation as in yogurt and cheese acts a bit like pre-digestion and that includes some protein breaking down (kills things like growth-hormones and increases vitamin content). Maybe this would explain why dairy tribes like kefir or why the Masai drank all their milk fermented - none of those had dairy digestion problems yet they drank a lot of it (other than the fact that cultured milk can be preserved safely at air temperature for a very very long time).

 

[pboy]

interesting blossom, I didn't know about that. Perhaps...condensed canned milk would have a significant amount...but 3mg per liter in low temp pasteurized is such a small amount its pretty negligible. And as to jyb's comments, I actually haven't experimented with homogenized milk, fortuneately I can get pastueriezed but non homo milk so naturally ive always chose that. I did consume powdered milk before...which id expect to have more lactulose as its higher heat, but I didn't notice any problems with it other than the taste wasn't that good

I wonder if anyone here has actualy experimented with same diet using homogenized and non homogenized milk to see the diff

 

[jyb]

I wonder if anyone here has actualy experimented with same diet using homogenized and non homogenized milk to see the diff

Here, it's as if 99% of milk bought is from the store and homogenised. Non-homo milk usually comes from smaller farms or special Jersey milk. So, I would guess typically non-homo milk is from much healthier cows eating a much better diet. At least that's clearly the case for the farms I buy from.

So for many other reasons, I would expect the typical non-homo milk to be better.

The homogenisation process was introduced purely for aesthetics and consumers not liking the blocks of fat floating in the milk. Of course if you like dairy cream, the floating fat is delicious and it doesn't make sense. The store milk tastes like plastic. It really seems like consumers prefer aesthetics to taste and health...

 

[tara]

I wonder if anyone here has actualy experimented with same diet using homogenized and non homogenized milk to see the diff

I'm considering this experiment. I have trouble with milk, but don't notivce any gas or digestive upset, so I suspect either homogenisation or the milk proteins themselves. Wouldn't surprise me if it's inadequately digested A1 proteins or homogenised compounds that get me. Powdered milk seems worse for me.

 

[Mittir]

I drink milk in ayurvedic way. I buy raw milk and bring it to boil and let it foam up and
then lower the temperature and cook it for 5 more minutes. I have prescribed this
method to some of my relatives whose young children was having digestive problem from
pasteurized milk. Boiling does improve digestion for them, i think it is due to
lower bacteria in well boiled milk.

I am getting a lot of lactulose from boiled milk than regular pasteurized milk.
Dr Ayers from coolinginflammation.com recommends lactulose to improve gut
flora and i used to follow his recommendation
and i found small dose of lactulose helpful. In that sense, some lactulose in
boiled milk is not that bad. Lactulose has fructose and galactose and i do know for sure
if these feed the kind of bacteria lactose feeds.

But i get upset stomach if i drink evaporated milk. Once, I tried to restrict fluid intake
by drinking home made evaporated milk. I think for me limiting factor is the amount of
lactose, i get upset stomach if i drink more than a cup of milk at a time.
I dont have any problem if i drink one third cup of evaporated milk.
Main problem in evaporated milk is high amount of oxidized cholesterol.
Next time i will try making evaporated milk from fat free milk.
Some cheese can be quite high in oxidized cholesterol, butter and cream
can have good amount of oxidized cholesterol if it was not handled properly.

I have also tried raw milk, it feels great but upsets my stomach. I did not want to
go through months of drinking raw milk to get my gut flora adjusted.
I have tried milk from many different sources and i believe the diet of the cow
is the most important factor in causing digestive problem.
Raw milk has some nutrients that are destroyed in pasteurized milk.

I do not get upset stomach from store bought homogenized pasteurized milk
but it does not taste as good as the one i get from a small dairy farm.
RP mentioned that milk fat get homogenized in the gut, so it does not matter
if milk was pre-homogenized or not.

 

[Dean]

Mittir, How much of the liquid boils off? Do you lose any of the protein or calcium that way?

Your method has been mentioned to me as a way to reduce fluid intake without sacrificing calcium and protein. I've been using non fat milk powder to a large extent (up to 4 cups of it a day, but now I'm down to mixing 1 1/3 cups in a qt. of milk to get 2 quarts worth of milk in 1 qt of liquid). I've seen mixed messages about Peat's take on milk powder, though I know he thinks fresh milk is preferable.

I guess your way would be healthier, though it does sound like a bit of a hassle. My understanding is you need a double boiler for your method?

 

[Blossom]

This is all so interesting and informative. There's so many nuances to consider regarding our beloved milk!
I'm glad to know that lactulose is not an issue, thank you Mittir for pointing that out.
I hope your experiment goes well tara.
I do prefer non-homogenized milk similar to jyb and pboy but maybe it's because I'm accustomed to the floating cream and look forward to it.
Thanks again for everyone's replies.

 

[tara]

I do prefer non-homogenized milk similar to jyb and pboy but maybe it's because I'm accustomed to the floating cream and look forward to it.

There used to be a bit of a race to get to the morning milk bottle first when I was little, back before homogenisation became standard. :)

 

[Mittir]

I was reducing to 1/3 and it takes about 40 minutes on a wide pot for 1 quart.
I do not see any reason for calcium or protein loss. I did not use double boiler.
I have to check in every 10-15 minute. Protein get denatured but
some people think it's easier to digest. Though oxidation of tryptophan
and cysteine can be problem if that happens at low temp.
I asked RP about reducing milk and he replied that it is ok as
long as temperature is not high.

I believe RP's main concern with poweder milk is oxidized cholesterol and fat
and oxidization of fragile amino acids like tryptophan and cysteine
at high temperature. I have read there are two method of making powder milk
and in one method small amount of cholesterol get oxidized. He mentioned
when fresh milk is not available then powder milk is ok.

I thought about using some non-fat powdered milk to fresh milk to
reduce fluid intake. It does not taste good at all.
Now, i can drink 3-4 quarts of fluid without having any problem
and do not have to wake up in the middle of night even if drink
about 2 cups of fluid before i go to bed.

I think one option is to buy micro-filtered whey or casein isolate and
i believe those are processed without using high temperature.

 

[Mittir]

I'm glad to know that lactulose is not an issue, thank you Mittir for pointing that out.

I am not so sure about it. Here is a quote from a study on fermentation of lactulose.
I don't know if colstridia is a good bacteria.

Some organisms were unable to metabolize the disaccharide, while others, e.g. clostridia and lactobacilli, metabolized lactulose extensively

http://mic.sgmjournals.org/content/128/2/319.long

 

[sunmountain]

I am confused why the lactulose did not produce symptoms in me. Sorry if I'm unable to follow up thread.

The nurse looked at my pityingly and said here is the bathroom if the symptoms get worse. I waited. And waited. And nothing happened.

If anything, I felt better as the day went by yesterday. Can this be possible? Today my knee pain is magically almost gone.

What is going on? I don't understand. Is lactulose good or bad?

 

[pboy]

I don't know...but if its working as osmotic laxative...any time you move out ***t lol, its always a good thing. If its being fermented and its a lot it might be uncomfortable and/or if its too osmotic laxative and casues runny stool its probly not good either

 

[Blossom]

I'm glad to know that lactulose is not an issue, thank you Mittir for pointing that out.

I am not so sure about it. Here is a quote from a study on fermentation of lactulose.
I don't know if colstridia is a good bacteria.

Some organisms were unable to metabolize the disaccharide, while others, e.g. clostridia and lactobacilli, metabolized lactulose extensively

http://mic.sgmjournals.org/content/128/2/319.long

Thanks for clarifying that Mittir. I'm having trouble getting the link to download on my mobile device but I will definitely read it on my PC in the morning.
I was initially thinking clostrida may be negative just because of the clostridium strain that causes C.diff but if this 'science news article' is accurate it seems like they may have positive effects for food allergies http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 152016.htm. It may be just a case of balance or imbalance as to whether they are good or bad.

 

[tara]

Looks as though large quantities (eg prescription medical quantities) of lactulose are expected to give rise to diarrhea and flatulence due to breakdown by gut microbes, but not digestible by human directly.

 

[jyb]

I was initially thinking clostrida may be negative just because of the clostridium strain that causes C.diff but if this 'science news article' is accurate it seems like they may have positive effects for food allergies http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 152016.htm. It may be just a case of balance or imbalance as to whether they are good or bad.

Ayers' blog discusses clostridium a lot as part of strains required for a good gut flora.

 

[Mittir]

I am confused why the lactulose did not produce symptoms in me. Sorry if I'm unable to follow up thread.

The nurse looked at my pityingly and said here is the bathroom if the symptoms get worse. I waited. And waited. And nothing happened.

If anything, I felt better as the day went by yesterday. Can this be possible? Today my knee pain is magically almost gone.

What is going on? I don't understand. Is lactulose good or bad?

It is widely used for constipation. I do not think it can be that bad.
But I tried this for better gut flora and it improved my allergy symptoms.
I used doses that did not have laxitive effect. Later i stopped because
i didn't like the idea that it was synthetic sugar.

Knee pain is usually associated with endotoxin and serotonin, lactulose can have beneficial effect.
We all have different composition of bacteria,so the reaction to lactulose will be different.
Lactobacilli is considered good and i don't have clear idea about clostridia .
You can experiment with it again and see how it improves knee pain.

 

[Dean]

I was reducing to 1/3 and it takes about 40 minutes on a wide pot for 1 quart.
I do not see any reason for calcium or protein loss. I did not use double boiler.
I have to check in every 10-15 minute. Protein get denatured but
some people think it's easier to digest. Though oxidation of tryptophan
and cysteine can be problem if that happens at low temp.
I asked RP about reducing milk and he replied that it is ok as
long as temperature is not high.

I believe RP's main concern with poweder milk is oxidized cholesterol and fat
and oxidization of fragile amino acids like tryptophan and cysteine
at high temperature. I have read there are two method of making powder milk
and in one method small amount of cholesterol get oxidized. He mentioned
when fresh milk is not available then powder milk is ok.

I thought about using some non-fat powdered milk to fresh milk to
reduce fluid intake. It does not taste good at all.
Now, i can drink 3-4 quarts of fluid without having any problem
and do not have to wake up in the middle of night even if drink
about 2 cups of fluid before i go to bed.

I think one option is to buy micro-filtered whey or casein isolate and
i believe those are processed without using high temperature.

Whey? I always thought Peat thought it was bad news.

As far as the reduced milk goes... that is some serious dedication...one quart at a time. Sounds about like the process for making the cottage or ricotta cheese where you slow heat the milk until it starts to bubble and then add the acid,etc. I made it a few times a few years ago. I don't recall much reducing of liquid going on, but then again I was doing it with more than a quart of milk at a time.

I can't handle anywhere near that amount of liquid. 2.5 quarts is my limit, even that is a little too much some days. That's even going out in the morning sun and walking for a few hours, working up a bit of a sweat.