In Defense Of Milk: And I Don't Think It's The Calcium

[lvysaur]

I have eaten a lot of dairy over the years, of many different types. Nothing does what milk does. I can eat cheeses, fresh cheeses, pure cottage/ricotta/mozzarella that was made yesterday, and it doesn't have the effect that milk has, even the cheap inflammatory gas station milk.

So for me, that rules out calcium. While important, it is not the component that makes milk uniquely calming and focusing over other forms of dairy. It also rules out any fat/casein.

This means that the benefits I get from milk must come from either: the water, the lactose, or the whey.

Lactose: encourages the growth of gram positive bacteria, and it also facilitates the absorption of calcium. In old papers, it was seen to completely abolish the more dangerous "putrefactive" fermentation, where bacteria ferment protein. I think this could be at play, and could be a reason why everyone should consume milk, even if in small quantities.

Galactose: forms when people metabolize lactose, which mostly happens in certain ethnic groups (although individuals from any ethnicity can do so, it's just a matter of likelihood). I have never suffered from lactose intolerance, and drink very large amounts with little problem, so my guess is that I am digesting a large amount of the lactose. Metabolizing galactose may have some beneficial effects, though I'm not sure what.

Water: an underrated factor. People say that milk is estrogenic, but how does it compare to the estrogenicity of tap water? Tap water is full of unknown molecular knick-knacks which public testing doesn't even attempt to test for, although if Flint Michigan is any indicator, they can't even be bothered to properly test for actual heavy metals until it receives public blowback. Thus, drinking milk may be an idiot-proof way to get clean water.

Progesterone: people say that milk is also progestogenic, which balances its estrogenic effects. I know little about this.

 

[Cirion]

You know, I am thinking it's the whey.

Why?

The last time I was in the best health in my life a couple years back, Whey protein and Maltodextrin were the two biggest staples of my diet. Lol. But I felt amazing. Even with whey protein that was heavily modified with all sorts of junk additives (You know, virtually every major protein powder brand out there =P)

I admit, this is a completely n=1 anectote though. But you've inspired me to consider bringing back whey... Lol

I personally don't do well currently on milk though.

I don't think it is the water and I think the negative effects of water may be blown out of proportion because I am pretty sure I either used tap water or just lightly filtered water for my whey shakes. Or maybe I just have decent quality tap water here in the Midwest.

I am just annoyed that it took me 6 months and massive weight gain to return to my roots - which is, high carb, moderate protein, low fat. Which BTW is basically what many people including Peat tend to recommend. Sigh. LOL but that's a topic for another thread

 

[Fractality]

You know, I am thinking it's the whey.

Why?

The last time I was in the best health in my life a couple years back, Whey protein and Maltodextrin were the two biggest staples of my diet. Lol. But I felt amazing. Even with whey protein that was heavily modified with all sorts of junk additives (You know, virtually every major protein powder brand out there =P)

I admit, this is a completely n=1 anectote though. But you've inspired me to consider bringing back whey... Lol

I personally don't do well currently on milk though.

I don't think it is the water and I think the negative effects of water may be blown out of proportion because I am pretty sure I either used tap water or just lightly filtered water for my whey shakes. Or maybe I just have decent quality tap water here in the Midwest.

I am just annoyed that it took me 6 months and massive weight gain to return to my roots - which is, high carb, moderate protein, low fat. Which BTW is basically what many people including Peat tend to recommend. Sigh. LOL but that's a topic for another thread

Since this thread is about the benefits of milk, how have you liked your cream separator so far for milk? Has it not helped you do better on milk?

 

[Cirion]

Since this thread is about the benefits of milk, how have you liked your cream separator so far for milk? Has it not helped you do better on milk?

I ended up with a cheap Chinese brand that doesn't work. Serves me right for going with Chinese, for sure.

So right now I'm playing with Bob's red mill non-fat milk with no added VA or VD. It seems to be ok as long as I have very little a day (no more than 1-2 cup a day). The bob's brand does taste kinda bad though lol. I am eating very little meat these days so I don't need a whole lot of calcium to balance phosphorus.

 

[TeaRex14]

Could be the b vitamins. From what I've read you lose a lot of them in the processing of turning milk into cheese. The carbohydrate could obviously be playing a factor too, since cheese is basically devoid of carbs.

 

[Fractality]

I ended up with a cheap Chinese brand that doesn't work. Serves me right for going with Chinese, for sure.

So right now I'm playing with Bob's red mill non-fat milk with no added VA or VD. It seems to be ok as long as I have very little a day (no more than 1-2 cup a day). The bob's brand does taste kinda bad though lol. I am eating very little meat these days so I don't need a whole lot of calcium to balance phosphorus.

Ah that's too bad. I'm still considering buying the Milky brand one but I need to find a reliable source of RP approved carbs to make up for the lost calories from fat. I like rice and potatoes but not in the amounts needed to replace those calories.

 

[michael94]

Galactose can shift metabolism out of glycolysis

But if you’re constantly “stressed” for whatever reason this will only be temporary of course. Sometimes the stress is in the milk itself if one has a hard time digesting it ( whether it’s the fat, casein, whey not being converted to niacin etc. ). Not to mention all the other forms of sress

 

[redsun]

You know, I am thinking it's the whey.

Why?

The last time I was in the best health in my life a couple years back, Whey protein and Maltodextrin were the two biggest staples of my diet. Lol. But I felt amazing. Even with whey protein that was heavily modified with all sorts of junk additives (You know, virtually every major protein powder brand out there =P)

I admit, this is a completely n=1 anectote though. But you've inspired me to consider bringing back whey... Lol

I personally don't do well currently on milk though.

I don't think it is the water and I think the negative effects of water may be blown out of proportion because I am pretty sure I either used tap water or just lightly filtered water for my whey shakes. Or maybe I just have decent quality tap water here in the Midwest.

I am just annoyed that it took me 6 months and massive weight gain to return to my roots - which is, high carb, moderate protein, low fat. Which BTW is basically what many people including Peat tend to recommend. Sigh. LOL but that's a topic for another thread

Whey is pretty high in tryptophan though. 23.5g protein from whey powder yields .5 g tryptophan and only .6 g tyrosine. Its possible you were feeling good regardless because you were converting that tryptophan you consumed into niacin.

 

[Cirion]

Whey is pretty high in tryptophan though. 23.5g protein from whey powder yields .5 g tryptophan and only .6 g tyrosine. Its possible you were feeling good regardless because you were converting that tryptophan you consumed into niacin.

Ah, that's actually a very good point. Tryptophan either makes you feel really bad or really good, it seems.

This goes into my whole observation that the ideal diet when one is sick is probably different than the ideal diet when one is well. I now believe "the Ray Peat diet" is the ideal diet when one is well and not when one is sick although *some* of the suggestions are good for when one is sick, like fruit and carbs in general, but I disagree with a lot of the sources of carbs and protein for the matter.

So the ideal diet is very fluid I now believe, and now I think the ideal diet to achieve health is low PUFA but also low total fat, high carb, but mostly starch and not sugar, and as low as you can get in tryptophan, cysteine, methionine etc which tends to mean an overall fairly low protein (as low as you can go without muscle wasting).

 

[Nebula]

I've never found anything but raw milk from a small family farm to be health promoting to me. Unfortunately raw milk often has bacteria strains that give me congested sinsuses. I'm not sure I get the same benefits from unhomogenized, but pasteurized milk. There seems to be a lot of fragile health promoting substances that only exist in raw milk or very minimally processed milk. Not sure what they are, but drinking a quart of raw milk per day seemed to get my metabolism back on track.

All commercial dairy has a very estrogenic effect on me at least when my thyroid function is low and is unable to detoxify it. Most people who consume a lot of commercial dairy look very estrogen dominant to me unless their liver is doing a good job at getting rid of the estrogen.

 

[Kartoffel]

In old papers, it was seen to completely abolish the more dangerous "putrefactive" fermentation,

Can you name one or two of them? Would be really interested to see them.

 

[Peatful]

I have eaten a lot of dairy over the years, of many different types. Nothing does what milk does. I can eat cheeses, fresh cheeses, pure cottage/ricotta/mozzarella that was made yesterday, and it doesn't have the effect that milk has, even the cheap inflammatory gas station milk.

So for me, that rules out calcium. While important, it is not the component that makes milk uniquely calming and focusing over other forms of dairy. It also rules out any fat/casein.

This means that the benefits I get from milk must come from either: the water, the lactose, or the whey.

Lactose: encourages the growth of gram positive bacteria, and it also facilitates the absorption of calcium. In old papers, it was seen to completely abolish the more dangerous "putrefactive" fermentation, where bacteria ferment protein. I think this could be at play, and could be a reason why everyone should consume milk, even if in small quantities.

Galactose: forms when people metabolize lactose, which mostly happens in certain ethnic groups (although individuals from any ethnicity can do so, it's just a matter of likelihood). I have never suffered from lactose intolerance, and drink very large amounts with little problem, so my guess is that I am digesting a large amount of the lactose. Metabolizing galactose may have some beneficial effects, though I'm not sure what.

Water: an underrated factor. People say that milk is estrogenic, but how does it compare to the estrogenicity of tap water? Tap water is full of unknown molecular knick-knacks which public testing doesn't even attempt to test for, although if Flint Michigan is any indicator, they can't even be bothered to properly test for actual heavy metals until it receives public blowback. Thus, drinking milk may be an idiot-proof way to get clean water.

Progesterone: people say that milk is also progestogenic, which balances its estrogenic effects. I know little about this.

Consider this:
Milk is a “complete food” with C/P/F. Ratios dependent on skim-> whole.

Whole milk providing 12g/8g/8g.

This is better for BS balance and regulation.
This takes you out of stress response.
This will help mitochondrial respiration...
This will make you feel better and your temps should rise...

 

[RWilly]

Are you doing skim milk, low fat milk or full fat milk?

 

[Amazoniac]

Can you name one or two of them? Would be really interested to see them.

- The Influence Of Intestinal Bacteria Upon The Thyroid Gland (1923)

--
Things like these should be losted in whey:
- How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?
- Mega Dosing Iodine = Bad, Destroys Thyroid Tissue Permanently

 

[YourUniverse]

B-casomorphins?

 

[lampofred]

I've never found anything but raw milk from a small family farm to be health promoting to me. Unfortunately raw milk often has bacteria strains that give me congested sinsuses. I'm not sure I get the same benefits from unhomogenized, but pasteurized milk. There seems to be a lot of fragile health promoting substances that only exist in raw milk or very minimally processed milk. Not sure what they are, but drinking a quart of raw milk per day seemed to get my metabolism back on track.

All commercial dairy has a very estrogenic effect on me at least when my thyroid function is low and is unable to detoxify it. Most people who consume a lot of commercial dairy look very estrogen dominant to me unless their liver is doing a good job at getting rid of the estrogen.

Are you saying that raw milk is less estrogenic than store-bought dairy? I thought the anti-androgenic effect of the milk I drink was just a property of all milk (which I counter with daily thyroid, aspirin, and Vit K), but if raw milk is not like that, then I need to make the switch...

 

[Kartoffel]

- The Influence Of Intestinal Bacteria Upon The Thyroid Gland (1923)

--
Things like these should be losted in whey:
- How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?
- Mega Dosing Iodine = Bad, Destroys Thyroid Tissue Permanently

Thanks, Guru. This study doesn't seem much like a testament to the benefits of milk, though.

Lactose: encourages the growth of gram positive bacteria, and it also facilitates the absorption of calcium. In old papers, it was seen to completely abolish the more dangerous "putrefactive" fermentation, where bacteria ferment protein. I think this could be at play, and could be a reason why everyone should consume milk, even if in small quantities.

In the study from 1923 that Travis Jr posted they mentioned that unboiled milk will actually increase putrefactive fermentation, and that only boiled milk is harmless. Furthermore, they state that fairly large amounts of lactose (1/4-1/2 lb) are needed to be effective, and that maltodextrin is more effective than lactose. This resonates nicely with the experience of many people saying that they can only tolerate UHT processed milk.

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks, Guru. This study doesn't seem much like a testament to the benefits of milk, though.



In the study from 1923 that Travis Jr posted they mentioned that unboiled milk will actually increase putrefactive fermentation, and that only boiled milk is harmless. Furthermore, they state that fairly large amounts of lactose (1/4-1/2 lb) are needed to be effective, and that maltodextrin is more effective than lactose. This resonates nicely with the experience of many people saying that they can only tolerate UHT processed milk.

I don't think that's necessary. The priority is getting the intestines moving considerably fast, then a little lactose combined with some fruit fibers should do it because they will be able to reach all parts of the intestine. And (indeed) having it sterilized and the fat content much-reduced should also be helpful in this regard. Exercise and a few days of a laxative might aid in kickstarting the process.[experimentation needed]

Lactose has been shown to enhance calcium absorption, but they often use high amounts in experiments. It does enhance in lower amounts as well but the interesting part is that lactase-deficient entities absorb less calcium than those who isn't. They speculate that once it's brokened down, the metabolites draw water to the intestine, which facilitates calcium adsorption.

- Effects of lactose on intestinal calcium absorption in normal and lactase-deficient subjects
- Effect of lactose hydrolysis on calcium absorption duringduodenal milk perfusion

Some strains of bacteria that thrive on lactose might not only produce lactic acid but of the more challenging type, and if it isn't further metabolized to desirable fatty acids in the intestine, it can make the host make a die.

- D-Lactic Acidosis in Humans: Review of Update

 

[LiveWire]

You know, I am thinking it's the whey.

The last time I was in the best health in my life a couple years back, Whey protein and Maltodextrin were the two biggest staples of my diet. Lol. But I felt amazing. Even with whey protein that was heavily modified with all sorts of junk additives (You know, virtually every major protein powder brand out there =P)

It is very easy to get a pure organic pastured whey with zero additives.

Btw why maltodetrin? It’s a bizzare sweetener. Why not just sugar, or lets say dextrose, if fructose is a problem.

 

[Kartoffel]

Some strains of bacteria that thrive on lactose might not only produce lactic acid but of the more challenging type, and if it isn't further metabolized to desirable fatty acids in the intestine, it can make the host make a die.

Do you write these adorable things on purpose or are they genuine mistakes? I think these bacteria thrive on almost any sugar, not only lactose. In experiments, sucrose significantly increases both lactobacilli and bifidobacteria.

I don't think that's necessary. The priority is getting the intestines moving considerably fast, then a little lactose combined with some fruit fibers should do it because they will be able to reach all parts of the intestine. And (indeed) having it sterilized and the fat content much-reduced should also be helpful in this regard. Exercise and a few days of a laxative might aid in kickstarting the process.[experimentation needed]

Why do you think it would be helpful to have the fat content much reduced? I'm experimenting a lot at the moment to find the optimal balance of carbs, fats, and protein for me. Reducing animal protein to 50grams or less in the face of enough calories has been the best thing, so far, but I find that reducing saturated fat too much in favor of carbohydrates in not good. I think saturated fat is important to balance our microbiome.

Supplementation of Saturated Long-chain Fatty Acids Maintains Intestinal Eubiosis and Reduces Ethanol-induced Liver Injury in Mice