I'd Like To Understand Better All About Dairies.

[Xisca]

There are really different points about dairies, and I find it complicated to cross all the criterias to take into account.

Some people have problem with lactose, others with caseine.... some with milk and cheese is ok, or only some cheese....

Fermenting is supposed to be good... or bad. I have no digestive problem with yogurt nor fermented cheese or blue cheese. ok, lactic acid... but is this oe bad? I would think that the problem is lactic acid in muscles, from anarobic exercice....

Has milk been transformed in the past only for "keeping with no fridge" reasons? Or are there some health reasons too?

Many ways have 2 sides, and some bad aspect may be counterbalanced for some people and not others.... Fermented food is thought to be protective through their probiotic effect. I know they can be carcinogenic, but if in great quantities and for some part of the digestive track. I meann this looks only as an irritative local effect, not general on all the body.

Then, would you drink sterilized UHT cow milk?
Is there any recommendation about the animal giving the milk?
Anything about raw, pasteurized and sterilized?
I think I remember Peat wrinting that raw is better and pasteurized second.
And pastured fed as well?

I have access to goat dairies, but they eat corn and soy for sure...
Also some sheep milk around here, cow products are imported. The organic cow butter I buy to make ghee is from Germany...

So, the most common cheese here is made from the stomach of young goats, and withh raw milk. I might be lucky? It is also full fat. Then I have to decide if fresh cheese is better than the 2 months or 5 months old drier cheese.

What's about brie or camembert style? They also make some of it here.

 

[Xisca]

I used to have sinusitis with ordinary dairies, even with very little. Really, it stpped so quick when I stopped dairies! (which was some yogurt and some grated gruyere).
That is why I am very careful with dairies, and want to chose to ones that will do best, among what is available here!

So, a lot of different things to take into account if I summerize:
- the animal giving the milk
- the processing of the milk, from raw to sterilized
- the product that is made with the milk
- the addition of bacterias and/or funghi
- the time of curing cheese from fresh to stone hard!
- Something else to take into account?

 

[you]

Peat is generally not a fan of fermentation due to the lactic acid content of fermented foods. I believe the "probiotic" effects and benefits are overstated.

Generally, the 3 dairy foods that are most approved of here are: Low-fat milk, greek yogurt and hard cheese

Greek yogurt is yogurt with the whey strained out, Peat doesn't like whey because it apparently spikes insulin very hard. Hard cheese has less fat than soft cheese, which is usually viewed as beneficial and of course, low-fat milk has less fat than whole-fat.

I believe there are a few problems with homogenization of milk while pasteurization is ok/good depending on how it's pasteurized (there are different methods).

Goat milk is great stuff too. Cheese is best made from raw milk and with ANIMAL RENNET, it's less allergenic among others things.

You should try to buy organic and grass-fed milk over typical cheap milk I believe, or at least I do, I find I digest it better and it tastes better, plus it isn't homogenized. In Australia, where I live, most dairy is from a few conglomerate dairy corporations. I get my milk from a local farm where their cows are almost fully grass-fed with a tiny bit of grain and hay.

Hope this helped OP!

 

[tara]

Hi Xisca,
Yes, there are a lot of actors to take into account, aren't there. But as you say, different factors may make a large or small difernce for different people. So it largely come down to trying the variants that are available to you, and seeing which ones seem to work for you. Some thought inline below:

I used to have sinusitis with ordinary dairies, even with very little. Really, it stpped so quick when I stopped dairies! (which was some yogurt and some grated gruyere).
That is why I am very careful with dairies, and want to chose to ones that will do best, among what is available here!

So, a lot of different things to take into account if I summerize:
- the animal giving the milk
tara: Some people have said that the distinction between A1 and A2 protein variants in milk is important, and that milk that is mostly A1 protein can increase the risk of some systemic difficulties. I have not seen Peat confirm this. Different animals give more A1 or A2. Poster Burtlancast has posted about this. I have been trying to get A2 milk to test this out for myself, but have not been able to be consistent enough with it to have clear results yet. I just know the A2 cow's milk I can sometimes get tastes a lot better than any other milk I've had for many years. I am sure, but I think I heard goats milk is mostly A2. Some people do better with goats milk. When I tried it a few years ago, i got the same symptoms as from cow's milk.
Milk from grass fed animals is preferable, but Peat has said that generally even when condions and food is not ideal, the animals still manange to make fairly nutritious milk, and can to some extent convert some of the PUFA in their feed into SFAs.
Peat has said some peple can have allergic reacions to milk based-on some allergenic plant the animals were eating. If you have trouble with milk from a particular farm or brand, you can try different sources to hopefully avoid that allergy.

- the processing of the milk, from raw to sterilized
tara: I think Peat as said that though raw milk has some advantages(greater nutritional value), depending on intestinal microbiota, some people may have difficulty with the bacteria in raw milk, while others handle it fine. Even with standard pasteurisation, some people can be sensitive to to any remaining bacteria, and do better with UHT pasteurised milk. This is just a matter of trying them to see how you react, though with raw milk you'd want to have some confidence in the hygeine practices involved in milking and packaging.
I have not heard Peat talk about any downsides from homogenisation, but I gather it lengthens shelf life and some people say homogenisation makes it not be digested as well.

- the product that is made with the milk
tara: Some milk products have additives in them that can be harmful, eg carrageenan, which is harmful to the gut lining. Peat has an artical that talks about carrageenan. He would recommend fairly strictly avoiding carrageenan and other gums serving silmilar functions. In some places synthetic vitamins and accompanying emulsifiers are added to low fat milk. Some people are sensitive to these additives and are best to avoid them. Others seem to be fine with them.
Peat sees the lactic acid in whey as a systemic metabolic burden, proabbaly harder for the system to del with than that lactic aid the body tself poducces (though he also advises avoiding too much of this, too), and generally recommends fresh milk over fermented milk/yogurt, kefir, etc. He has said it's probabaly OK to have spoon or two of yogurt for flavouring, but not ot eat much of it. Greek yogurt is preferable to whole yogurt because most of the whey is removed, so it doesn't have much lactic acid left in it. It gives higher protein and calorie density than milk or regular yogurt, and for people who are having trouble with too much liquid, this can be an advantage. Cottage cheese can also be helpful for this reason, if you can buy or make a good one (where I am I can't buy one without carrageenan). Fresh cottage or farmers cheese is very easy to make at home from whatever kind of milk you have available. Another advantage of cottage or farmers cheese or strained yogurt is that the discardec whey contains a higher proportion of the more inflamatory amino acids. A disadvantage is that a lot of the calcium (but not all) is lost in the whey.
Butter is preferable fat compared to many seed oils etc.
Some people are trying to limit their fat intake in order to limit or reverse body fat gain and/or to reduce PUFA stores and/or to restore the bodies ability to oxidise carbohydrates (Radle cycle). So they tend to favour lower fat versions of milk and cheese. Peat has suggested that if you are drinking enough milk to provide most of your protein and calcium needs, and you want to avoid unnecessary fat gain, 1% fat milk provides enough fat to aid digestion but low enough to not contribute unduly to fat gain. He usually recommends that every meal should have at least a little (saturated) fat in it to improve over all digestion. He particularly recommends saturated fat as protective against soem of the downsides of starch.
I think that for people who are significantly underweight or have been semi-starving fo a while, whole fat milk is probably the better option, and there would be not such reason to avoid the high fat cheeses.
For people who curently have lactose intolerance, cheeses and strained yogurt etc can be easier than fresh milk. But Peat has said theat people can often restore lactose digestion by gradually including an increasing amount with meals.

- the addition of bacterias and/or funghi
tara: Peat favours cheeeses made from natural rennet and long established traditional cheese cultures and is suspicious of recent common artifical cultures.
The more bacteria have been at work in any food, the more histamine it is likely to contain. For people who are sensitive to histamine in food, this is another factor that makes fresh milk preferable to yogurt etc and aged cheeses.
Peat tends to favour not having excessive GI bacteria, so he's not big on the probiotic effects of yogurt etc.
I absolutely love the taste and texture of brie and camembert, but I have not succumbed to these temptations without regretting it the next day for many years. I seem to fare worse with yogurt and aged cheeses than with fresh milk or cheese.
Dry milk powder can be a useful addition for people who need to limit liquids, or fofr times when fresh milk is not available. Dehydration may oxidise some of the fats in milk, and some poeple here favour ski milk powder partly for that reason. Peat has said dehydrated foods always get some damage, but milk powder can be worth having around when you don't have access to sufficient fresh milk.

- the time of curing cheese from fresh to stone hard!
tara: I personally seem to tolerate fresh cheese better than aged cheese. I guess this is about histamine, but there may well be other factors too. Some people here and Peat, do well with hard cheeses, eg parmesan.

- Something else to take into account?

Bound to be other factors i can't currently bring to mind. :)

Summary:
Favour fresh over fermented milk, avoid additive gums and emulsifiers etc. Favour grass-fed, but don't fret i you can't get it. Consider what calorie density and protein you need. Experiment with available sources and drink any milk that agrees with you personally.

 

[tara]

So yes, I did think of another factor I missed. Some people are intolerant of lactose, and get digestive sdistress from it. In the short-term, this can make lower lactose products such as cheese or strained yogurt preferable for major dairy consumption. Peat has said that many people can gradually restore lactose digestion by starting with just a little milk with meals, and gradually increasing the amount as the body adapts with more lactase production.
I think it may be more common to have trouble with the lactose than the proteins, but for me I have not noticed any digestive distress from milk, and I suspect it is the proteins that sometimes mess with me.

 

[Xisca]

Peat is generally not a fan of fermentation due to the lactic acid content of fermented foods. I believe the "probiotic" effects and benefits are overstated.

Thanks, I have to look for more information about lactic acid in Peat's articles.
I believe that the probiotic effect exists, and may be better to not understate it either?
I also believe that an excess would be bad because of the irritation of the digestive tract, and carcinogenic effect, but it has been reported in traditions with a BIG amount of fermented food.

If whey spikes insuline, this is more a concern for me!

Goat milk is great stuff too. Cheese is best made from raw milk and with ANIMAL RENNET, it's less allergenic among others things.

You should try to buy organic and grass-fed milk over typical cheap milk I believe, or at least I do, I find I digest it better and it tastes better... I get my milk from a local farm where their cows are almost fully grass-fed with a tiny bit of grain and hay.

Well, so I am LUCKY!
Where I live, goat cheese is made with only rennet and raw milk. They make it with a lot of rennet, so it is made in 1/2 hour, removes a lot of the whey and anable to eat it very fresh and totaly unfermented.

I prefer to buy it organic, because the problem is that goats eat more and more genetically modified corn and soy. I learned also that goats now live half the years they did before, and produce half the time they did...

And raw goat milk is very tasty, nothing to do with the tetra-packed one!

 

[Xisca]

Tara, how do you react to dairies?
I also think I have more problem with the protein than the lactose...
Is there a dairy with less casein?

I have known people who had ever-ending problems that were solved by stopping dairies, or eating only from goat and sheep. Problems include all colds and throat or bronchis problems, + joint problems.
It seems that when the gut is not funcioning well, some undigested parts of milk pass in the bloodstream, and have to be excreted by the body, by lungs, or deposited into articulations.
I have personally helped a little boy of 2 recover both from chronic colds and diarrhea just by the advise to try and stop dairies.
I also have this sort of problems, BUT I digest milk and dairies perfectly!
So it does not seem to come from lactose....

I guess the problem can be with proteins.
I heard about caseinomorphin that some people produce from milk (same as gluteomorphin from gluten, both are proteins)

- the processing of the milk, from raw to sterilized
tara: I think Peat as said that though raw milk has some advantages(greater nutritional value), depending on intestinal microbiota, some people may have difficulty with the bacteria in raw milk, while others handle it fine. Even with standard pasteurisation, some people can be sensitive to to any remaining bacteria, and do better with UHT pasteurised milk.
... with raw milk you'd want to have some confidence in the hygeine practices involved in milking and packaging.
Peat tends to favour not having excessive GI bacteria, so he's not big on the probiotic effects of yogurt etc.

It is very contrary to a lot of sayings, and it seems that it is good to have plenty of good bacterias, just to have them fight for yourself against the bad ones! May be some people have difficulties with bacterias just because they don't have the right ones in the digestive tract...

A local organic cheese maker told me here that his analysis are always good and beleves that there is such a level of good bacterias from cheese making, that the bad ones have no room to develop.

Fresh cottage or farmers cheese is very easy to make at home from whatever kind of milk you have available. Another advantage of cottage or farmers cheese or strained yogurt is that the discardec whey contains a higher proportion of the more inflamatory amino acids. A disadvantage is that a lot of the calcium (but not all) is lost in the whey.
Butter is preferable fat compared to many seed oils etc.
Some people are trying to limit their fat intake in order to limit or reverse body fat gain and/or to reduce PUFA stores and/or to restore the bodies ability to oxidise carbohydrates (Radle cycle).

When I make ghee from butter, I find it incredible what amount of casein there is in butter!
Yes I try to have as much saturated fat as possible, and have been doing it for long, ooof!

Not sure what is cottage cheese made from... I think it is made with bacterias, a type that works at lower temps than the ones for yogurt. This is the case of a local cheese that looks like the cottage cheese I can remember... A nice very white speading cheese. Also, it has less fat.

I have always been thin but want to be sure to get rid of an excess pufa, to solve inflamatory problems. But at the moment I do well with fat calories, more easy than sugar for me... Starches are an absolute no for me at the moment.

The more bacteria have been at work in any food, the more histamine it is likely to contain. For people who are sensitive to histamine in food, this is another factor that makes fresh milk preferable to yogurt etc and aged cheeses.
tara: I personally seem to tolerate fresh cheese better than aged cheese. I guess this is about histamine, but there may well be other factors too. Some people here and Peat, do well with hard cheeses, eg parmesan.

Great input for me as well, as I am almost sure I have a problem with histamine!!!!

REal all good info, thanks soooo much to all for helping!

 

[jyb]

Tara, how do you react to dairies?
I also think I have more problem with the protein than the lactose...
Is there a dairy with less casein?

I have known people who had ever-ending problems that were solved by stopping dairies, or eating only from goat and sheep. Problems include all colds and throat or bronchis problems, + joint problems.
It seems that when the gut is not funcioning well, some undigested parts of milk pass in the bloodstream, and have to be excreted by the body, by lungs, or deposited into articulations.
I have personally helped a little boy of 2 recover both from chronic colds and diarrhea just by the advise to try and stop dairies.
I also have this sort of problems, BUT I digest milk and dairies perfectly!
So it does not seem to come from lactose....

Maybe due to the poor quality of commercial cow milk? Unhealthy cows, homogeneization,... Other dairy products don't go through as much processing.

 

[Xisca]

Right + genetic natural selection for more milk and "better" milk/production....
For sure and Indian or African cow has nothing to do!!!

And growth factors?
A cow is a bigger animal than sheep and goat... and us.

I have heard that boiling the milk remove some of these, without doing so much harm as pasteurizing.
Anybody knows something about this?