All These Threads On Hair Loss Go Nowhere Because....

DMF

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Sep 5, 2012
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249
....because what we really need is feedback from those who HAVE their hair - a survey or study on their health, habits, diets, fathers/heredity, etc.
How we go about doing that I don't know, but I could guess, there wouldn't be found anything markedly different about them then those who've lost their hair. So the mystery goes on and on....
Anyhow, any Volunteers?
 

Ben.

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I agree that we wouldn't find to much difference. There are people with ***t diets or hormonal profiles and still have great hair. Why then would you want to make that survey? Most people who are healthy or a have good hair live in bliss of not knowing anything about their situation because things work so theres no need to research or experiment with themself, let alone question any of it.

My thought is that in people loosing their hair something internally is broken. Something in the immense chain of processses happening inside the body is not working properly, and the compensation mechanisms can only do so much.

Personally, i would be more interested in the health issues bald people have and make a survey/study of that, and if my idea is right, they all have health issues, wethere they are aware of it or not. I highly doubt we find answers looking for diet/habits in people with hair. They would contradict eachother immensely.

Imo everyone is damaged in a unique way. The thing i found most helpful with my hair for example is that something with my muscles/fascia/spine is causing issues with digestion and bloodflow to the head. I was able to achieve night and day difference within minutes by doing some stretching or strength training or postural correction work.
We are talking about instant difference from brittle, weak hair that breaks and falls out upon cumbin trough it with my hand while looking whitish with dandruff to literally pink/redish scalp that is fluffy, strong and withstands cumbing/stroking it with no issues while having no issue staying up being styled with water or gel. It also "feels" fuller. I am jumping between hair loss and hair regrowth for a year now.

The only issue is i can't seem to make it permanent. But theres a obvious correlation with the cold hands/feet, digestion, microbiome, hair/nail quality and posture. Whats the cause is different for everybody tho so this does not have to be the direction to take for others to solve it but should definitely be explored.

Mccrib articulated it nicely:

Hair loss is definitely complicated. That much is true. But the big issue with it is many men tend to see it in isolation and will dismiss clear evidence, and will blame the 'genetics' boogeyman rather than look at the metabolic problems and ensuing thyroid down regulation.

I feel like Danny Roddy has been an outstanding researcher on the topic of hair loss, and he's not been getting the credit he's due. His articles on his website are phenomenal, and will help many people understand hair loss better, but I admit they are not easy to grasp at first glance. But I think it speaks to the high quality and inherent value of his research that it holds up as well if not better as the years go by.

My personal view of hair loss is that nearly all cases are the same, with varying rates and circumstances. I think the ''male pattern baldness'' shape is a universal pattern, observed in all sexes at all ages, reflecting the relative vascular deficiency at the top of the scalp, and the usual immobility of the occipito-frontalis muscle. Relatively speaking, everyone has lower density on the top of their head than the sides, even the children. And even 90 y.old men with senescent thinning, will have thinner vertex hair, even if they've seemingly kept a ''full head of hair''.

I know that sounds like a hot take, but I genuinely believe it. Scalp hair on humans clearly has a different function than other hair in mammals, as evidenced by the extremely long hair cycles (lasting years), and much greater energy requirements than other hair (eyebrows, beard, body hair have a very short cycle). It's been expanded elsewhere how scalp hair requires perfect glucose metabolism, and I think the way the stress physiology affects peripheral circulation and makes it very difficult to meet those requirements (adrenaline reduces circulation to the extremities, thyroid increases it).

Individual differences play a major role. The health of your parents, the physiological characteristics you inherit from generations before you, the conditions of your early-life, and the way you perceive stress in your own lifetime all influence what happen to your hair. I suspect most of the men who experience premature baldness had physiological shortcomings from inadequate development. In order words, less energy resources to meet stress. This may not be as obvious in childhood or the teenage years, but signs like apathy, poor sexual interest, behavioral problems (agitation etc.) may indicate a deficiency of thyroid function (and energy production). Broda Barnes highlighted several of these cases among teenage boys, where thyroid supplementation corrected their energy deficiency.

This will sound like esoteric nonsense to people who haven't been exposed to this perspective, but it is backed up by decades of knowledge. Hair density and coverage on the scalp increases steadily until puberty, and some boys will have an astoundingly thick and well developed head of hair (as indicated by low hairline, and dark pigmentation). Other boys have thin, lightly-pigmented hair with high hairlines, even at 15. You can often tell that they will go bald very early. Progesterone, and other protective steroids are often present in high amounts until the age of 20, in both sexes, thus generally preventing the worse cases of hair loss until the 20s, although decline is starting earlier and earlier in each generation

Now that doesn't mean that every bald men is unhealthy or that every man with hair is unhealthy. But can we say on average, that men with hair are healthier than men without hair? Absolutely.

The cause of hair loss is simple, all it requires is a massive failure to produce energy, at any time. For young men, this state is often achieved after several years of malnutrition, psychological stress, total lack of sunshine exposure, and many other stressors. At some point, the hair just starts to shed. When the stress is very sudden, you can have so called diffuse thinning. For most guys it's progressive, but if the stress is too great, you'll shed diffusely all over. Now normally this would be temporary,
but the modern environment is so bad, be it from the toxic culture, constant EMF, moldy buildings, blue light exposure, sunshine deficiency, PUFAs, malnutrition, on top of grossly inadequate development (formula, no breastfeeding etc.). It's only getting worse with each new generation.

Basically the stress is constant and there is never any relief. Therefore there isn't any opportunity for hair to grow back. In terms of what's happening on the scalp, estrogen rises and stops the hair growth, and also causes a rise in prolactin (which is the cause of the shedding as the 'melting' hormone), then cortisol rises to control the inflammation of the hair follicle (caused by energy deficiency, estrogen, PUFAs, and ultimately the prostaglandins). As is well known, cortisol, prevents any future regrowth, and the scalp inflammation leads to edema, then fibrosis, and ultimately calcification, closely influenced by the parathyroid hormone. On top of it there's serotonin, which is driven up by estrogen and constricts blood flow to extremities while increasing muscle tension (including the surrounding scalp muscles...)

There are several more layers of complexity involving endotoxin, histamines etc.

But basically it's a gigantic mess. And if you had bad hair to start with, and you can't activate your occipito-frontalis muscle (move your scalp back and forth as you raise your eyebrows), then over time, you get a block of dead, fibrotic tissue instead of a pink, supple scalp like you had as a child. And this process is not just happening on your scalp. I laugh everytime I hear a man say: I am going bald but otherwise I am perfectly healthy!

The reason why hair loss is correlated with so many markers for chronic disease and cardiovascular disease is because it's exactly the same process which is happening in your organs and tissues that's taking place on your scalp. And considering how difficult it is to reverse hair loss, it should scare every man to death about what is happening in their bodies.

That being said, many men stop the massive cascade of stress at some point in their lives. They mature, become more content, get a nice wife/GF/partner and settle into life. Their health often improves. In general, more mature organisms are less susceptible to stress, that's a general biological characteristic. But most of the time it's not nearly enough positive changes to reverse the pathological changes which have occurred on their scalp. Which is why Danny has never met a man over the past 7 years or so of consulting who had hair problems and didn't have a subpar temperature.

Women have the benefit of their menstrual cycle, with strong concomitant surges in estradiol (e2) and progesterone (p4), as well as the high progesterone state of pregnancy, which gives them great restorative benefits. This becomes clear when you notice what happens when the menstrual cycle is interfered with or doesn't occur (PCOS), those women often develop ''Androgenetic Alopecia'', along with the ugly hirsutism and body hair often present in balding men. This is an evolutionary thing. Women of reproductive age are the most resilient group because they are infinitely valuable. It's seen in nature: one fertile and healthy ''dominant'' male can reproduce with many, many females.

So there is a primal thing going on as well. There is a great deficit of meaning for many men in today's culture, and if they don't meet society or their own expectation of themselves, this can lead to chronic social defeat, an experimental condition since in lab animals, which is such a powerful stressor that it basically causes the organism to shift towards involution and death rather than growth and development.

So as Ray said many times before, hair loss is extremely serious (and complicated), but at the core it really comes down to energy.

In short - hair loss of any kind is a sign of a serious health issue.

Also this one is far to underrated:
Great comment. People who want to fix their health issues (including hair loss which is not a mere cosmetic problem, don't listen to people who tell you it's not important) need to stay away from forums and stop comparing themselves to others and focus on their own situation, step by step. That's how you beat learned helplessness.
 

pauljacob

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
367
I agree that we wouldn't find to much difference. There are people with ***t diets or hormonal profiles and still have great hair. Why then would you want to make that survey? Most people who are healthy or a have good hair live in bliss of not knowing anything about their situation because things work so theres no need to research or experiment with themself, let alone question any of it.

My thought is that in people loosing their hair something internally is broken. Something in the immense chain of processses happening inside the body is not working properly, and the compensation mechanisms can only do so much.

Personally, i would be more interested in the health issues bald people have and make a survey/study of that, and if my idea is right, they all have health issues, wethere they are aware of it or not. I highly doubt we find answers looking for diet/habits in people with hair. They would contradict eachother immensely.

Imo everyone is damaged in a unique way. The thing i found most helpful with my hair for example is that something with my muscles/fascia/spine is causing issues with digestion and bloodflow to the head. I was able to achieve night and day difference within minutes by doing some stretching or strength training or postural correction work.
We are talking about instant difference from brittle, weak hair that breaks and falls out upon cumbin trough it with my hand while looking whitish with dandruff to literally pink/redish scalp that is fluffy, strong and withstands cumbing/stroking it with no issues while having no issue staying up being styled with water or gel. It also "feels" fuller. I am jumping between hair loss and hair regrowth for a year now.

The only issue is i can't seem to make it permanent. But theres a obvious correlation with the cold hands/feet, digestion, microbiome, hair/nail quality and posture. Whats the cause is different for everybody tho so this does not have to be the direction to take for others to solve it but should definitely be explored.

Mccrib articulated it nicely:



In short - hair loss of any kind is a sign of a serious health issue.

Also this one is far to underrated:
Thank you Ben. Excellent info and references. While I know that baldness is somewhat hereditary, I also know from my own case that nutrition and emotional stress have an important role in it. I've lost some hair since the beginning of the covid farce, but hair shedding varies from day to day. That's why I think that the food I eat and the supps I take have a role in hair health because one day my comb is clean, the next there are at least half a dozen strands on it. It's complicated.
 

equipoise

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Jul 29, 2020
Messages
598
Location
Europe
My hairline has definitely receded and my hair has definitely gotten thinner the last 5 years and it's obviously due to stress, I had an extremely stressful life with many unfortunate things happening to me in the period of the last 5-6 years. Had I known about aspirin and progesterone back in 2015, I'm certain I'd keep my hair.

I also think once it's triggered, the hair loss, it's almost impossible to uncheck it. It's as if something just breaks in the body.
 

OccamzRazer

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Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
815
My hairline has definitely receded and my hair has definitely gotten thinner the last 5 years and it's obviously due to stress, I had an extremely stressful life with many unfortunate things happening to me in the period of the last 5-6 years. Had I known about aspirin and progesterone back in 2015, I'm certain I'd keep my hair.

I also think once it's triggered, the hair loss, it's almost impossible to uncheck it. It's as if something just breaks in the body.
Yeah, stress will do it. And prevention is way, way easier than reversal - if only we could go back in time, right?

But IMO there's still hope. Check out this one if you haven't already:

Topical DHEA for hair loss?!? | Ray Peat Forum
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
3,147
....because what we really need is feedback from those who HAVE their hair - a survey or study on their health, habits, diets, fathers/heredity, etc.
How we go about doing that I don't know, but I could guess, there wouldn't be found anything markedly different about them then those who've lost their hair. So the mystery goes on and on....
Anyhow, any Volunteers?
The women in my family has a history of hair thinning, especially in the back. I was following in their footsteps, until I took matters into my hands, in my 30's and today my hair, at almost 58, is better than it was in my 20's!
 
Joined
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Messages
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The women in my family has a history of hair thinning, especially in the back. I was following in their footsteps, until I took matters into my hands, in my 30's and today my hair, at almost 58, is better than it was in my 20's!
MY husband was getting a lot of gray which has halted and people now think he is in his 30's at 52! Here we ate a couple of months ago.
 

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Mrscorpion360

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Sep 23, 2020
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Thank you Ben. Excellent info and references. While I know that baldness is somewhat hereditary, I also know from my own case that nutrition and emotional stress have an important role in it. I've lost some hair since the beginning of the covid farce, but hair shedding varies from day to day. That's why I think that the food I eat and the supps I take have a role in hair health because one day my comb is clean, the next there are at least half a dozen strands on it. It's complicated.
I actually do agree that emotional stress causes hair loss, I did suffer from this condition everyday since school up until my adulthood and slowly I was losing hair due to stress but things got worse for me when I use to live in my older neighborhood, I got attacked by some weird old man along with some creep relative of his. When I was with my sister, she told me I had a bald spot on the frontal part of my scalp which severely stressed me in such a horrendous way and given I wanted to search “genetic hair loss” at the time, the information stressed me out even worse. So like not only was I attacked, being looked at like a criminal, a loved one of mine passed away did this to my hair but the info about pattern hair loss made it worse. There’s so much going on with me it’s ridiculous, especially low vitamin D since I couldn’t go out for some sun exposure due to how uncomfortable I am with my old neighborhood. I mean I did manage to regrow some hairs back but back then was the worst and I follow the realization I’m way to sensitive to stress. Hell about a month ago, I bought a PlayStation 1 game for $1 and I showed it in a group on Facebook out of excitement and ask how worth this game is and those guys started attacking me for no reason, that made me feel both negative and emotionally stressed. So yeah, emotional stress sucks. Thank god I didn’t go for finasteride.

Now I’m feeling a bit better, Danny roddy’s info is nice, I’m getting plenty of sun exposure ((my D levels is about 34 on my last lab test I think.)), living in a new neighborhood, been busy with my hobbies, avoiding online gaming ((too much toxicity going on.)), I’m restricting the usage of the phone because I overuse it a lot everyday so I’m going to take multiple breaks from it. Etc.

while my hair doesn’t look the best, because I have a long way to go, atleast it looks better than before. Soon I’m going to try out scalp massaging one day to experiment.
 
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Mar 10, 2021
Messages
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May I ask what you’re doing both for your own hair and skin and your husband’s? Thank you 😊
The Ray Peat protocol with liver, lots of shellfish, oranges and milk has made for healthy hair. The biggest thing I think is getting the PUFA' s, as well as most of the grains and meat out of our diet, as they are high both high in phosphorus and really aging. I also took nettle for a few years which got the gray gone quick, but really darkened it. Once I learned that it is estrogenic I quit taking it. I don't suppliment anything else, besides Progest-E and niacinimide, but I only started that about a month ago.
 

Nemo

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Jul 8, 2019
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Can't remember whether I saw it on Haidut's website or one of Danny's podcasts, but Haidut said to put progesterone on bald spots a couple of times a week.

It works on the outer third of eyebrows, if they're slow to grow back after you're correcting thyroid.

And it worked on a bald spot the size of a quarter that developed after a lengthy surgery.
 
Joined
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May I ask what you’re doing both for your own hair and skin and your husband’s? Thank you 😊
You know I should also mention that I have not used hair eyes or bleach on my hair. I don't know about the dyes, but I have heard that bleach destroys the hair follicles, and causes premature graying, so I don't know how much possibility there is in restoring them, but I would say nettle is the best chance of trying.
 

Fairykiller

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Joined
Feb 28, 2021
Messages
30
O
The Ray Peat protocol with liver, lots of shellfish, oranges and milk has made for healthy hair. The biggest thing I think is getting the PUFA' s, as well as most of the grains and meat out of our diet, as they are high both high in phosphorus and really aging. I also took nettle for a few years which got the gray gone quick, but really darkened it. Once I learned that it is estrogenic I quit taking it. I don't suppliment anything else, besides Progest-E and niacinimide, but I only started that about a month ago.
Oh that’s good to know - I am also drinking nettle infusions and didn’t know it’s estrogenic. Thank you!
 
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