38 Male UK. Tired Of Being Like The Walking Dead

Discussion in 'Logs' started by Diddleum, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Something is definately happening!

    could t bring myself to sit inside on my own as normal. I went to gym and did light exercise and sauna spa etc. Felt slight hunger on the bike which built up then went after 5 mins. Left the gym feeling slightly better than when I entered! Got home and cooked salted potato mash and some chicken fried with coconut oil. I feel good, better then I have in a couple of weeks for sure.

    I weighed 78kg at the gym, down a whole 2kg from when I last weighed myself on the same scales a few weeks ago. I’d guess it’s water and glycogen lost as my muscles don’t look to pumped.

    So I think it’s the coconut oil making the difference. The only other things I’m supplementing is high dose niacinamide and copper. I don’t want to risk getting it wrong.

    I’m still not eating many calories and have been pretty active at gym and walking. I’m eating a few teaspoons of CO. I must still be burning stored fatty acids but I now feel a lot better while doing it. Possible mechanisms of coconut oil which I’ve read on the forum here is that coconut oil is lowering inflammation from the fatty acid burning or perhaps its improving my glucose metabolism. I’m not getting hungry or shakey despite not eating much and being active though....

    Feeling optimistic
     
  2. Kingpinguin

    Kingpinguin Member

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    think both the coconut oil and copper is whats helping. Copper is important on so many levels and people tend to be depleted/ eat low copper foods and supplement at some point with high doses if zinc. Doing that its incredibly hard to get copper levels up without a supplement. Copper involved in thyroid function, endogenius antioxidant system SOD, ceruloplasmin, cellular iron metabolism and cell respiration. Also involved in neurotransmitter levels. I almost always get a quite pronounced increase in metabolism days when I eat high copper or take copper supplement. Think your copper levels is beginning to normalize after being deficient. Also noticed from your picture you are just like me. I never work out and still have abs and look quite ripped. People always comment on it. It was like that even back in the days when I had ED issues, fatigue and cold hands etc. Also had low testosterone back then. Still looked muscular and ripped. I really didnt feel like I had a good metabolism back then so I dont even think that it was the reason why I was so lean. Im just always lean thats how it is. I’ve understood testosterone helps to build muscles but its not crucial. Anyway I also used coconut oil back then and I feel it only gave me positive effect. My body always prefered a good mix of carbs and saturated fat. Specially coconut oil. Imo I think the extra calories from coconut oil is whats doing good. If you and me are similair body types I know that you need to eat a lot more. I have to eat a lot to keep my metabolism high and feeling good. It can even be annoying because it can be hard to force feed yourself something boring like a bowl of extra white rice with coconut, butter and salt most days. But it improves my sleep so much. Much more morning erections hard and long duration. Eating enough food is essential. Look at your body obviously you get cortisol problems, low T etc and chronic stress fatigue depression because your body thinks its starving. Its kinda crazy but thats how it is. Keep up the coconut oil and keep adding foods you like to eat just to reach those extra daily calories. I think you’ll see a major turn in your health soon.
     
  3. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    thanks. Agree with you. Weird how my muscle mass is preserved with the idea of starvation. I maintain a high BODY MASS INDEX when eating around 1000 calories and doing physical work.

    but eating more seems to always make me feel ***t.

    I’ve drank double cream, eat potato chips, pots of pate, mass milkshakes, bowls of rice and pasta it always makes me feel awful. I’ve tried so many times.

    the coconut oil I’ve added is only a couple of hundred calories. It can’t be the extra calories something is having a affect. The other week I was downing loads of full fat milk and felt awful.

    it’s 2335 now about 2-3 hours after my dinner of heavy salted mashed potato, chicken breast and CO and 500g of grapes. Like doubled my days calories in my evening meal. Since that meal I’ve slowly felt the worst I have all day. I feel depressed and negative.

    I think eating more and feeling good is the end goal but something is in the way. Otherwise it would be easy to fix just by stuffing my face.

    Maybe I’m just tired. I’ll see what tomorrow brings.
     
  4. Kingpinguin

    Kingpinguin Member

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    Yeah obviously there different mechanics regarding to fat or carbohydrate, if its saturated or not, if its short chain or long chain fatty acids. Like Ray writes about coconut oil it seems to have a sort of almost magical effect on metabolism and just nurturing the body. And yeah I didnt mean that the total daily calorie is the important factor either. Whats important is keeping blood sugar from crashing. So feeding a little every now and then will help keep it up and reduce cortisol. But yeah you get your energy from cortisol and adrenaline which is bad. The thing is that once your cortisol goes down you should not feel bad and sluggish like you complain you do. Kinda perplexing that this happens to you. Because some how your body doesnt seem to have what it needs to push you through the day without relying on cortisol and adrenaline. Hard to say what that could be. Probably a combination of things like low hormone levels, and some sort of metabolic dysregulation at a cellular level. Keep working on it. You know what makes you feel good. Rely on your instincts to heal. I enjoy following your progress.
    Your drive and optimism is whats gonna heal you eventually!
     
  5. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Slept really well well for like 8-9 hours. No waking but no erections.

    I’m ok but mood feels flatter on waking. Temperature has dropped to 36.3 on waking. Voice still deep.

    The only real differences yestarday was I stopped caffeine at midday and I had a really big evening meal.

    @Kingpinguin - I’ve often considered what you’ve said. That eating a lot crashes my cortisol and that’s why I feel crap as I was relying on it. Cortisol can warm you up also, maybe why I’m a bit colder this morning. My saliva and blood cortisol is always top but in range. The thing is that’s when I get my worst symptoms - when I eat plenty. If it is a cortisol drop then there’s no good metabolism to replace it. I’ve tried pushing through and just keep on eating loads but I end up like a zombie and sleep all day. Never works. That’s why I suspect insulin resistance. But I just don’t know. You are right though that I need to work out how to eat more and feel good. That’ll be the key to recovery.

    Perhaps my high cortisol keeps my fatty acid oxidation high giving me energy. When I eat enough carbs it drops and I loose energy. My glucose metabolism just isn’t enough to provide enough energy.

    perhaps I’m slowing improving my glucose metabolism but still heavily reliant on FAO. Coconut oil is linked to improving glucose use. I have mildronate on order to test this. It will block fao. I’ll see how it makes me feel.
     
  6. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Went on a 2 hour walk. Feel crappy.

    eating too many carbs has done this.
    I have a sweet spot of about 100g a day littke and often. When I feel good I get carried away and forget this.

    actually don’t think coconut oil did have a great effect. My mood improvement was due to eating restricted carbs for a few days.

    maybe because I stopped caffeine yestarday afternoon? Seeing as I’ve dropped down I’ll resume drinking coffee.

    round and round in circles!
     
  7. Vinny

    Vinny Member

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    Can you explain why?
    Thanks
     
  8. GreekDemiGod

    GreekDemiGod Member

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    I believe that's what happens to folks who have sleep / glycogen issues.
    If you're running on glucose and your liver glycogen stores are low, you'll burn through your fuel faster at night and cortisol / adrenaline will wake you up.
     
  9. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    FML so I’ve had about three cups of coffee and just sat watching a film and I feel energy rushes through my body. Like little tickles of energy or pleasure in my otherwise dead corpse.
     
  10. tara

    tara Member

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    Whenever I slack off on Mg and Ca, I get white spots on nails again. (I also supp a little zinc every week or so. I'm not diagnosed with hemachromatosis, and not knowledgeable about it.)
    I've not seen Peat recommend lots of refined sucrose in general (more like sometimes as a stop gap when better sources aren't available). I've seen him recommend sugars in milk, fruit etc.
    Which carbs? In which foods? Are you eating carby foods that include lots of minerals (eg potassium, magnesium, ...) too?
    Undereating should cause hunger. It's not uncommon for it to also cause stress response and sleep trouble.
    Based on? If you are maintaining on a low-energy diet, that would imply a low base metabolism. Calories?
    I don't know what is up with your carb handling, but maybe it is an effect or adaptation to prolonged energy deficit? Refeeding after starvation has some risks, and can apparently feel bad. If your difficulties stem primarily from prolonged undereating, then I don't think you can resolve them with supplements alone. Consistently getting adequate food is the basis. No guarantees about recovery feeling good every day, especially in the beginning. If you have been in severe deficit, then medical supervision is wise - refeeding syndrome can occasionally become dangerous if not treated. (I think it involves minerals and fluids in the system getting badly out of balance.) Data required to assess if this is relevant. As a reference, men who are not restrictive dieting on average maintain themselves on something like 3000 cals/day, a bit more or less depending on height, and more if extra active. If you have been eating a lot less than that, then either your base metabolism has slowed down, or you have a lot of repair to catch up on, or both. If there is repair to do, refeeding can feel bad - it can signal that rest is required for the repair to proceed.
    My perspective is informed by Gwyneth Olwyn (Patients and General Public — The Eating Disorder Institute) and the Minnesota Starvation Experiment amongst others. SOme commentary on the subject from me and others in this forum thread: Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia
    Member Kelj has recently been posting lots of related material too.

    Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia
    There may well be value in pursuing psychological health. But bear in mind that sometimes there are physical causes or contributors too. For instance, it is generally much more difficult to have relaxed sustained energy for life while in severe chronic energy deficit, or while deficient in B-vitamins, or necessary minerals, etc. Physical components may need to be addressed as well as any psychological ones. Ideally, synergistic solutions.
     
  11. tara

    tara Member

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    Have you ever persisted with eating at least 3000 cals/day for at least 2 months? (And more if you get hungry.) 4-6 weeks to get through initial bloat ...
    If the trouble is starvation, recovery can be unpredictable, but you can't tell if it's working by just considering how feel after a day or three. Recovery is likely to take more than a year; some days feeling bad is normal.
    I'd guess rest and recovery.
    This might be what recovery looks like. Ie that's it working.
    Maybe going on a 2 hr walk is not what you need while recovering from energy deficit.

    I'd suspect that not overdoing the caffeine and other stimulants could be helpful.
     
  12. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    thanks for your kind inputs.

    certainty rest is not my issue. I don’t work much. I’ve spent most of the last 4 years motionless in bed.

    I completely understand the stance on refeeding and feeling worse to begin with. Refeeding 3k+ calories makes me feel progressively worse through the first few days. I sleep all day, depressed to the point of suicidal thoughts. Appetite drops to the point where looking at food makes me feel sick. I get dizzy and foggy. I just can’t do it. I can’t function and eat that much it seems.

    it’s so hard to think clearly when feeling like this I’m cognitively a mess. Part reason why I’m logging on here rather than it all be in my head. Anyone reading this thread will think I’m going round in circles and a complete mess and they’d be right. I’m actually an extremely successful computer programmer / IT entrepreneur. I must be reasonably smart not that you’d guess by my lack of focus.

    my brother eats little and is remarkably driven.

    All I can do is keep plugging away.
     
  13. tara

    tara Member

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    Hi,
    First up, keep yourself safe, and find local support if you need it.
    What I was saying is likely to apply if you have been in severe energy deficit. Since I still don't have a clear idea of what sort of calories you've been eating over the last year or two, I'm not sure whether this applies. With that proviso:

    I mean that when you eat enough to start to restore the energy deficits and begin the repair processes, the repair process itself seems to often require rest. Feeling bad and low energy can be signals to rest.
    It's not the same as being inactive because you are out of fuel/in chronic energy deficit - this is unlikely to result in repair or recovery.

    If 3000 cals is way more than usual, how much do you habitually eat?
    Have you tried gradually ramping up with 200 cals more every few days?
    When you have tried eating more, has it been real food, or have you been trying to cram huge amounts of pure sucrose, with little other nutrition?
    Have you got someone around/where you live who will notice if you get into trouble and need urgent medical help? You know about refeeding syndome?

    Have you searched locally to see if there are any health professionals with experience in supporting people in recovery from restrictive eating disorders? It sounds as though you could use in -person support and medical supervision for recovery from someone who has at least some understanding of the processes?

    Along with whatever else, prolonged energy deficit affects cognition. (See Minnesota Starvation Experiment)

    Suggestions:
    - read ED Institute articles
    - log your food and monitor calories for a week or more to see how much you are eating. If it shows a pattern of eating on average less than 2000 cals:
    - search locally to see if there are any health professionals with experience in supporting people in recovery from restrictive eating disorders, and seeing if you can find on e who will be helpful for you in person - both for medical supervision and psychological support
    Measure your body temp both before and 1/2 hourish after breakfast, and see if it goes up or down. (I think this an add info about whether metabolism is being sustained by stress hormones or thyyroid.)
     
  14. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Thanks Tara, I’m ok. I’ve been in this state for all my life. Whilst I am on my own a lot, I’m fine but thanks for your concern. I thought expressing how bad I feel might help other people know they are not alone.

    My habitual diet is anywhere between 1000 to 5000 calories. I’ve eaten fast food all day or bags of doughnuts when I can’t be bothered to cook.

    My morning temps and temps in general increase with eating. My pulse is 60-70. I can sleep fine - all day usually. I don’t think I’m
    Chronically underfed but there are definately times where I haven’t eaten enough because I forget to due to lack of appetite.

    I’m quite familiar with the Minnesota starvation experiment. I often considered undereating my issue. I’ve gone long periods eating 4000 plus cals low carb eating butter fatty meats etc. I just can’t tolerate carbs. I don’t look like the guys from Minnesota starvation experiment. I’m actually slightly over weight for my height going by bmi. My skin is good, hair and beard reasonably thick. I look a picture of health. Most my bloods are reasonable.

    I do tend to be a bit all others nothing and when I feel a little bit better I eat ten times as much and feel crap. Your suggestion of slowly increasing is a good one if I can find the discipline. Thanks. Anything that increases metabolism like carbs, coffee can often make me feel amazing for like a day or two before crashing down.
     
  15. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Today was an average crappy day mostly bed ridden apart from popping out doing a few quotes.

    I started reading and thinking about why I can’t process many carbs. Why they make me feel so bad. I obviously do metabolise carbs just not efficiently. Obviously mostly the glycolysis pathway. I noted that lactic acid is a waste process of anaerobic glucose metabolism. Also lactic acid build up with those with diabetes and metabolic syndrome. So another theory is the build up of lactic acid from eating too many carbs causes the ill feelings. I also get the same feelings from over physical exertion, which increases lactic acid.

    quotes on peat said to eat more carbs to improve this. I also found references to beta alanine and baking soda. I had beta alanine in the cupboard as I experimented it about a year ago. I looked back in my diary at that time and I actually felt really good at that time! I think at the time I was injecting testosterone and attributed the good feelings to getting my test levels rid right and beta alanine got forgotten about.

    anyway about ten mins after ingestion of a teaspoon I got the strong skin itching tingle flush reaction similar to niacin. An hour or so and I’m up brighter and motivated to clean my van and work tools in the freezing cold. Seems positive.

    from what I can fathom beta alanine concerts to carnosine which breaks down / clears up the lactic acid coming from glucose metabolism....

    Another day another theory!
     
  16. tara

    tara Member

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    I tend to see carbs and coffee as very different. Fuel versus temporary stimulant. I seem to get withdrawal from even small amounts of coffee.
    I don't count BMI as a reliable guide to 'overweight' - I think it's individual, like height. I'm glad it's not been unremitting starvation.

    If you've had extended period of HFLC, then maybe it will take a bit for carb handling to come fully online again. Maybe gradual readaptation to carbs could give the system a better chance, along with ensuring generous amounts of relevant micros etc.

    Other possible angles cld be monitoring UpH (eg with pH strips). Then you can choose some foods etc to help keep it in range (~6.3-6.7).
    Or considering whether you could be reacting badly to some specific foods.
     
  17. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Tara thankyou for persisting with this line of thought.

    I think you are right. I am chronically under nourished. I have always been a hyper focused motivated individual. It started with obsessing with curing my acne as a teen. I then obsessed over having the dream body. I’m now stuck in a ortherexic rollercoaster trying to fix why I don’t feel good or have normal functions.

    Ive had periods of fasting, intermittent fasting because I simply feel better running on stress. I haven’t avoided calories for too long but low carb or zero carb has been my lifestyle for most my adult life. I’m a decent guy but I struggle to get attention via my personality. I struggle communicating with adults. I’ve always relied on my appearance. Daily gym, fad diets has got me here.

    I thought about what you said about body resting after finally getting enough. I came across this thread on a eating disorder website Wondering if these symptoms are part of recovery for anyone else?
    I started crying as the way some of these people described how they feel refeeding got home to me.

    thanks again.

    I’m confident that my up and down success in the last week is from going under eating to eating enough. I only feel ok when I undereat (carbs mostly).

    The last two days I’ve been drinking orange juice constantly. When I wake up in the night - orange juice. Today I woke feeling normal. I eat and fell asleep again for three hours, I went to work for two hours, eat and then fell asleep for three hours! This after 9 hours sleep the last few nights. I’ve felt fogged and dizzy when I stand up. Exactly how eating disorder people on that thread describe refeeding.

    So I’m gonna keep going and push through expecting to get worse before a slow improvement. Constant orange juice to kept sugars and nutrition high and three proper meals. I doubt I’m the only person coming from a lifetime of low carb experiencing this.

    On a positive note. My temps, pulse, weight are good so I don’t think I’m in as bad state as the people I’ve been reading about. Hopefully recovery won’t take as long.

    it’s hard because feeling much better than I do right now is as simple as not eating. But in the long term it’ll be worth it!

    feel free to hound me if I go off track, which is inevitable.
     
  18. tara

    tara Member

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    I just looked at the thread you linked. The administrators posted a couple of lists of symptoms and when they recommend to seek medical attention. I think dizziness was one such.
    If you haven't already done so, engaging with a suitable medical professional about your history of restriction and your intention to recover would be a way to keep it safer. Olwyn and others recommend everyone doing recovery have suitable medical supervision for refeeding. There are risks of serious harm that can sometimes need treatment.

    PS, Olwyn has a 'letter to doctors' on her site.
     
  19. OP
    Diddleum

    Diddleum Member

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    Didn’t sleep till 2am, and had broke sleep. Everytime I woke up I drank orange juice.

    I properly woke at 9:45 with a feeling that I can’t sleep any more. I feel ok. Really warm and relaxed. Temp is 36.6 pulse is 72. Voice feels stronger and deeper.

    sleeping in the day a lot hampered my night time sleep. So my first goal is too try and not sleep in the day but slowly increase my eating.

    I eat a big bowl of mash potato with salt and butter and minced beef. I then eat grapes and orange juice all evening. I felt so hot and my temps hit 37.2!

    update — I eat more orange juice, a protein low fat yoghurt, 250gram grapes and Within minutes I’m a mess! Heart palpitations, weakness, fog, fatigue. This reaction is always worse in the morning. I guess either because I’ve not been eating as much for 10 hours sleeping or it’s because of the daily cortisol being highest in morning. I eat ten times as much last night and felt fine.

    feel awful, stomach feels slightly cramped also. I’ll keep sipping orange juice and rest till it goes.
     
  20. ilhanxx

    ilhanxx Member

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    What is your digestive enzyme status? Do you have reflux, bloating or other digestion problems? have you ever try pancreatin or digestive enzymes?
     
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