Young Men And Clashing With Mature Women

[Andman]

Great post. Couldn't agree more.

+1, great insight

 

[Lolinaa]

I love this conversation, there are a lot of good points, above all the last 2 interventions @CLASH and @goodandevil. Even though I tend to think the humour part is easier for men to get away with it that for women.
Some people are so insecure and sick that its almost lethal.

 

[Peatful]

I work as a male nurse. My supervisor, boss and bosses boss are females. My co-workers are females. My HR is all females and one gay guy. Most of the females are overweight, stressed out, and easily agitated. They exhibit the same behavoir that the OP mentioned and has been discussed. Whats interesting is that this is a female dominated environment yet the same charicteristic behavoirs are at play. To combat their behavoiur I make jokes and when theyre getting agitated I make slight fun of thier agitation such that if they get upset they have given into the joke and then they have lost in an ego sense. Works everytime, keeps everyone happy and allows them to realize that theyre just stressed out. I would say they react the way they do because of thier hormonal state more than some social pressure to be honest. They are overworked, have poor emotional intelligence and self awareness, have poor emotional regulation, have general low self esteem, low self regard, they eat terribly or not at all, they have children and families that they have to take care when they go home and theyre interpersonal relationships are somewhat toxic. I think they all have the possibility to be counter to everything above but they dont have the info, time, support, or energy to turn themselves around so they act out of their situation and vent thier pent up cumulative stress on the people around them. The thing is, atleast for me, once I understood this I was able to get along with them nicely and give them an ear to listen what they had to say or make the jokes that subtly put them in thier place when they began to display innapropriate behavoir by commonly accepted standards (the jokes are never mean though, only a slight push back to the behavoiur indicating a crossing of a boundary). The thing is I think most people are functioning under these same conditions. Its not just the women (I often see people pointing out specific groups). I think its all people. Everyone is under a squeeze by bills, laws, work, family obligations, health problems etc. And the only outlet for the pressure is sideways to other people when the real problems are from above and below. This coupled with the progressive fracturing of families and hence childrens upbringings and emotional development is only snowballing through the generations. I understand the initial reaction to outrageous behavour though, we all get the hair raised on the back of our necks when someone is being illogical and its directly effecting you.... The only thing you can do is manipulate your surroundings and people by controlling yourself (emotions and all) to effect the desired outcome (i’m still working on this, helps to think of it like a challenge, a puzzle to solve, as opposed to a barrier or obstacle).

+1
I respect this

 

[Lilac]

Its not just the women (I often see people pointing out specific groups). I think its all people. Everyone is under a squeeze by bills, laws, work, family obligations, health problems etc. And the only outlet for the pressure is sideways to other people when the real problems are from above and below. This coupled with the progressive fracturing of families and hence childrens upbringings and emotional development is only snowballing through the generations.

Great post, CLASH.

I recognize the description of the women you work with. Spot on!

People are stressed by all the problems you mention, plus: "food" that isn't food, tainted water, tainted air, harmful medicine, EMFs, destruction of the culture.

A while ago, I was at a lunch with some former coworkers. One woman, about 50, was seething, in a subtle way, about politics. By the time the afternoon was over, I was speculating it wasn't really Trump she hated but elements of her life. Maybe how her eldest child had turned out, not that she would admit this to an outsider or herself. She seemed to have no insight into how the health of younger people has been compromised. Maybe she doesn't even see the generational decline. People just accept autism and cancer in 20-year-olds as normal abnormal. There is a lot to be angry about today, and people are raging like King Lear.

 

[Lisaloo]

A feminist would say in response to this post, that the writers own insecurity in power is causing him to be uncomfortable with the woman’s power, but as a 55 year old female who is also a manager, I seem to be very turned off by gay men working for me. Maybe that is the same thing somehow? I just cannot stand when gay men hide behind this put on over the top female persona ( or what they perceive to be female). I know they are trying to embrace their feminine, but it comes off as degrading to me. I would say that violence towards anyone because you don’t like them is Unaceptable. Interesting topic.

 

[betsyaida]

Hilarious post with lots of mansplaining. A “discussion” that starts off with character assassination where one has already made up their mind in very specific detail what all “mature woman” are is not a discussion. It is seeking validation for how you feel about it.

This post is the equivalent of walking up to your young healthy wife after a fight and saying you are a bi$ch and it’s all your fault but I think if we talk about it, it will help us understand what’s going on and then we can make it better.

If you want to really have a conversation then flinging opinions as concrete diagnosis will get you nowhere. If you say you’ve been attacked and made to feel in specific ways by mature woman and that you don’t like it and you want to figure out a way to change that then THAT is actually a conversation.

For example...I am going to rewrite this post making pretend like I am you. Scince I am not you I might have some of the details wrong but it’s just an example of how to actually have a conversation instead of a wich hunt...

Topic is perfect so it stays as is:

Young Men And Clashing With Mature Women

Why is it when I encounter mature woman they berate, attack, dominate and manipulate me? I feel like this is happening with every mature woman I work with or encounter in my life. I am not going to just roll over and put up with it. It immediately puts me on the defensive so that we butt heads even more because I am being attacked.

I would like to understand what is going on and engage in conversation with some mature woman to help me understand how I can prevent this from happening and also if you might be willing to shed light on why a mature woman would clash so intensely with a young man. Ask me specific questions, if that helps, and I can provide specific details as to precise situations. I am wondering if it is insecurity, gender/age gap, hormones on both sides ect... I am open to all ideas.

Something similar to what I wrote above, but in your words of course, would get you real information from actual mature woman instead of other people not in that demographic jumping on the bandwagon of agreeing with you on what bi$&@s mature women are.

Just a suggestion if you are really interested in learning and are really interested in possibly finding a way to understand this problem better which may lead to better results when you run up against this obviously frustrating problem.

 

[lacto man]

Hello,

I've come across information on the forum about when young androgenic men clash with mature women with elevated estrogen and or on SSRI drugs and I experience this in my personal life and I think it would help if we could discuss this issue and seek some clarity as to what is going on in order for people to foresee and prevent altercations in communication in family and in work environments.

My personal experience is that these women are expressing a personality of authority, dominance, control, manipulative, patronising, condescending, passive aggressiveness, stubbornness, lack of empathy and compassion, inability to admit fault, inability to apologise, inability to express gratitude.

If this behaviour is expressed towards me I react strongly with aggressiveness and full adrenaline reaction as if I am under great threat and has occurred even if I am using progesterone and taking aspirin. I tend to get 'gas lighted' for my behaviour. This does not happen to me with men of all ages or young women healthy women.

I think it would be beneficial if we can speak about what is happening on a biological level and how to communicate with these kinds of women for the peace and harmony of humanity. I think it has to do with young androgenic men being dominant themselves and not wanting to submit and these women getting used to less androgenic men in society.

Perhaps people with greater knowledge and or experience could chime in.

WOW! I don't know where to start.

It could be what you said, or it just could be that you are a **** and every woman you get near can see it.

 

[Lolinaa]

WOW! I don't know where to start.

It could be what you said, or it just could be that you are a **** and every woman you get near can see it.

Seriously why insulting? He is not the only one who has expressed his concern on this matter.
I am a woman and I saw it too but I would not say it was only mâture women even though they tend to be more like that.
the only post that was misogyne was repasdusoir and schultz corrected him.

Please respect each others opinion and bring the conversation to another level than this.

I think goodandevil's response brought the beginning of an answer to this.

 

[freyasam]

I wish more women would chime in, as these types of threads tend to turn into seemingly bitter men complaining about women. Sorry men if I am hurting your feelings.

Fewer and fewer women participate in this forum and other RP groups because of blatant misogyny such as that expressed in this thread. A lot of RP groups used to be friendlier places with a diversity of voices. Not so much anymore. Many of us have to form our own groups so that we can discuss Peat without being body shamed or condescended to or insulted or called crazy / hysterical / psycho or whatever the current term is that sexists use to silence women. It gets a little old seeing people cherry pick Peat's stuff and throw around isolated terms he uses to reinforce their divisive beliefs.

It's pretty ironic seeing how Peat dedicated much of his work to helping women and their physiology, and he has commented extensively on cultural factors that marginalize women.

 

[Waynish]

Haven't you noticed? Fewer and fewer women participate in this forum and other RP groups because of blatant misogyny such as that expressed in this thread. Many of us have to form our own groups so that we can discuss Peat without being body shamed or condescended to or insulted or called crazy / hysterical / psycho or whatever the current term is that sexists use to silence women. It gets a little old seeing people cherry pick Peat's stuff and throw around isolated terms he uses to reinforce their divisive beliefs.

It's pretty ironic seeing how Peat dedicated much of his work to helping women and their physiology, and he has commented extensively on cultural factors that marginalize women.

I notice more and more women here... Where's the evidence that they all left - perhaps the forum admins can share some stats?

 

[freyasam]

I notice more and more women here... Where's the evidence that they all left - perhaps the forum admins can share some stats?

You joined 2.5 years after I did. I don't know overall numbers but I can assure you that a lot of the women who were around in the earlier years have left. I don't contribute in the groups (not just this one) as much as I used to and I know many women who feel the same way.

Anyway, you're quibbling over a minor point in my comment and missing the larger picture.

 

[Jsaute21]

Great thoughts in here but women are not the only ones guilty of estrogenic and unhealthy competitive behavior in the work place. They also often possess organizational capabilities that masculine men often don't. Women need to be managed differently than men in my experience. You treat everyone fairly, but no two people the same if that makes sense.

 

[Herbie]

I think @BenjaminBullock meant that older women are under a great influence from estrogen even though they technically have lower overall estrogen, this effect being due to a significantly lower progesterone level. Since progesterone isn't there to mitigate the action of estrogen then estrogen goes unopposed. This is what I tend to think people are talking about when they say older women have higher estrogen (sort of short hand for higher estrogen to progesterone ratio). Also tissue estrogen may be higher in older women since progesterone is what knocks it out of the tissue into the blood. Since progesterone is low, the estrogen stays active in the tissue yet shows up low in the bloodstream.

This is how I understand it so far from reading Ray's stuff, though my understanding of things keeps evolving as I learn more.

Great reply, thanks for clearing that one up.

 

[Herbie]

Really interesting topic. What I've come to think is that women are much more aimed towards fairness in everything. Fairness or equality depending on how you want to read it. What I see is that, when they are exerting an authoritarian stance, it is usually to enforce some sort of fairness as they perceive it. I don't think this is a bad trait at all. I think it can be quite excellent in an appropriate situation. It's great for bringing up children in which you want a fair playing field as much as possible to make sure each kid can develop well and to their potential or beyond. But there are certain extreme and obvious circumstance where you absolutely don't want fairness to be an issue, such as military endeavors or other things were competency matters to the point of meaning life or death (or success or failure in a business scenario). Of course, sometimes you just get mean people of any gender.

I not that long ago left working for a very large company with a very large, female-dominated HR department because it was getting impossible to get anything done without perfect circumstances. If I was on a project where no one wanted to be a problem, things went fine. But more often than not, there's always that person (or several) who is/are just there to get by and draw a paycheck, or even be a pain because they got some sick pleasure out of it and knew they could get away with it. On these project situations, you were screwed because you could not remove the person, you were forced 'involve' them and 'make things work for them' and you would be sent to training to 'learn' how to 'make them interested'. But it would never fix anything. That person would have to be treated 'fairly' at the expense of the whole project; they could not be held accountable. It would literally stop all progress while you wait on that person to be 'inspired' or 'engaged' to finally carry their part or whatever, which also never really happened. I saw projects run years behind and millions over budget due to this. It would have been better to remove the person and hire a consultant to fill their place. Most often, the situation was resolved by some of the (male) managers secretly setting up something to run around the problem person and get it done as side project that 'just so happened' so solve the problem in the other project that was the hold up and to keep HR happy.

I moved to a much smaller company with no HR department and a very masculine, semi-locker-room culture. ***t. Gets. Done. Competency is what rules and the environment is of can-do and make-it-happen, no excuses. Plus, all the guys, no matter what position/level are constantly busting on each other, not really mean-spiritedly, but as a way to keep things in line. There is no restriction on speech. It's like a way of subtly checking on each other, saying "hey, are you okay? You know I'm paying attention. I know you got this, and I'll get your back where I can, but if you don't, it's going to get done one way or another" but in crude terms to hide the fact that is what you are doing. It keeps everyone honest somehow. Despite lots of foul language, it's in an odd way the most professional environment I've worked in because everyone is basically held accountable. People that aren't doing anything or are bullshitters are quickly found out and fired. I quite like it. And, yeah, leaders naturally emerge as the people who can check on others, make sure they're getting the help they need, being honest, not taking too much crap, strengthening the team, and responding in a measured way to problems that arise, while also being competent themselves.

The fairness makes sense to see it from their point of view, its when they cannot see both sides even if they disagree, to be able to acckknlowdge the others point of view is respectful.

 

[Herbie]

Yes. Having a hard time to function at work due to exactly this. Im curious, has it always been that way for you?

It happens once every few years, I just read Non Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg and The Art of seduction by Robert Greene, I have clearer understanding of this now and how to communicate more effectively to prevent these kind of situations from happening.

 

[Dhair]

It happens once every few years, I just read Non Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg and The Art of seduction by Robert Greene, I have clearer understanding of this now and how to communicate more effectively to prevent these kind of situations from happening.

Good for you for trying to better yourself. I know so many men much older than me who have ruined their lives and careers because of their violence and hubris. Learning from other people's mistakes is good too.

I notice more and more women here... Where's the evidence that they all left - perhaps the forum admins can share some stats?

Taking the bait...

I honestly think this is the one place on the internet where older women and younger men seem to get along. At least, that seems to be the demographic make-up of this forum from my point of view.

 

[Badger]

They figured out why a lioness grew a mane, usually only domain of male lions (reason sounds Peaty, them stress hormones): "It turns out, despite veterinarians' expectations, Bridget's testosterone levels were perfectly normal, nearly identical to her sister Tia's. The source of the mane, D'Agostino said Tuesday, stemmed instead from significantly elevated levels of two other hormones: cortisol and androstenedione." https://www.ajc.com/news/zoo-figures-out-why-lioness-mysteriously-grew-mane/0gZVCuan4fSYfC1lOIbP6O/

 

[Tarmander]

They figured out why a lioness grew a mane, usually only domain of male lions (reason sounds Peaty, them stress hormones): "It turns out, despite veterinarians' expectations, Bridget's testosterone levels were perfectly normal, nearly identical to her sister Tia's. The source of the mane, D'Agostino said Tuesday, stemmed instead from significantly elevated levels of two other hormones: cortisol and androstenedione." https://www.ajc.com/news/zoo-figures-out-why-lioness-mysteriously-grew-mane/0gZVCuan4fSYfC1lOIbP6O/

Adrenals...I talked to a guy at a health food store with a kid who had asthma and took adrenaline to manage it(the inhaler one). Kid was young, before puberty, already had body hair growth...

 

[Herbie]

Thanks for everyone who contributed to the thread, a lot helpful insights and interesting to see how others deal with these situations.

Since I wrote this post I read a few books:

-Non violent communication by Marshall Rosenberg (psychologist)
-The art of seduction by Robert Greene
-The 48 laws of power by Robert Greene
-The wisdom of psychopaths by Kevin Dutton (psychologist)
-The sophist by Plato

I was hoping for some talk on pheromones and addressing how to communicate more effectively with people using SSRI drugs.

What I came to further understand after reading all the posts was that the clearest way to put the issue that I spoke about is in the realm of hierarchies, being in situations where the hierarchical structure hasn't been clearly established (in broken families for example) and assuming that I deserve a certain level of respect which is just general restpectful polite behaviour and not receiving this and for what ever reason a powerful chemical and biological response comes over me which I cannot control and the challenge for me is not acting upon that which I do my best to but usually results in raising my voice to express my view and leading to argument which is not desirable or effective at meeting my needs.

In the social chaos of todays world I find clarity in watching old films (pre 1990) Soviet, Italian and Hollywood which shows more natural social structures and confirms that things are clearly changed and I'm sure I'm not the only one being bewildered by what is occurring in the west today.