Low Toxin Testimonials Why We Stopped the Vitamin A Detox Diet

[S.Holmes]

I think it needs to be combined. We need to be able to have good ALDH and retinol binding protein (zinc dependent becomes it seems this is more like an antibody wrapper it completely encapsulates the retinol) and good bile flow to not be harmed by what comes out. Vit A is rapidly cleared from the blood when they have given a supp to people. Where is it going? It's shuttled away into our fatty tissues.

Check out this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4452429/
Overall, such findings indicate a potential ability of vitamin A and its derivatives to negatively interact with biological membranes, an event that may lead to organelle stress, as, for instance, mitochondrial dysfunction, and to cell apoptosis or necrosis.

‘Vitamin A and its derivatives, the retinoids, disrupt mitochondrial function by a mechanism that is not completely understood. However, it accounts with impaired electron flux between the complexes of the METC, increased ROS production, and induction of oxidative and nitrosative stress to mitochondrial membranes. Additionally, vitamin A and retinoids alter the mitochondrial structure by causing swelling of the organelle. More investigations are needed to elucidate how vitamin A and retinoids affect mitochondria and whether there is a causative link between such event and the clinical manifestations observed both experimentally and in humans.’

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I skimmed this study looking for in vivo experiments. It looks like they were using vit A in supplement form, not from food. That would be like saying red meat is bad because of toxic iron. We all know you can get too much of a "good" thing.

The in vivo doses used in rodents were 1000 to 9000 IU. Any adult taking the equivalent dose would likely end up in the hospital.

 

[InChristAlone]

I skimmed this study looking for in vivo experiments. It looks like they were using vit A in supplement form, not from food. That would be like saying red meat is bad because of toxic iron. We all know you can get too much of a "good" thing.

The in vivo doses used in rodents were 1000 to 9000 IU. Any adult taking the equivalent dose would likely end up in the hospital.

Ah see you are are under the impression supplements are different than food. Sure supplements can raise certain metabolites of retinol more than liver but liver raises the metabolites as well check out this study: The teratogenic metabolites of vitamin A in women following supplements and liver - PubMed

They took 10 female volunteers and gave them either vitamin A supplements or calf liver to eat (50 mg and 150 mg of vit A).

They measured the following retinol metabolites (vitamin A by-products):
- All-trans-retinol
- All-trans-retinyl palmitate
- 13-cis-4-oxo-retinoic acid
- 13-cis-retinoic acid (= isotretinoin)
- All-trans-retinoic acid
- All-trans-4-oxo retinoic acid

All of those metabolites have known teratogenic (birth defect inducing) properties. All metabolites spiked both after the oral supplementation with vitamin A as well as after the consumption of calf liver with equivalent vitamin A content.

But vitamin A supplements caused a significantly higher spike in all-trans-retinoic acid than eating liver (supplements caused a 8 to 20-fold spike of all-trans-retinoic acid as compared to liver).

This led the study authors to express the opinion that the risk of birth defects after eating liver was negligible relative to its potential benefits.

But this conclusion was based on a wrong assumption.

The study authors assumed that the most dangerous of the 6 measured byproducts was all-trans-retinoic acid.

They called it the "principle teratogenic metabolite of retinol".

Given that eating liver caused only an insignificant increase in all-trans-retinoic acid levels (relative to the increase caused by vitamin A supplements), they thought that eating liver was consequently not a concern for pregnant women.

We now know that this assumption is not correct. We know that one of the 6 measured metabolites, 13-cis-retinoic acid (also known as isotretinoin) is highly teratogenic. It can cause birth defects in up to 35% of babies exposed to it: Isotretinoin (Accutane®)

Women, who are prescribed Isotretinoin have to sign a pledge to not become pregnant while taking the drug.

It is so toxic, that people are not allowed to donate blood while taking isotretinoin and up to a month afterwards:

So what did eating liver do to the levels of isotretinoin?

The study showed that eating liver increased the levels of isotretinoin more than 22-fold.

The baseline concentration of isotretinoin among the study participants was at around 1.4 ng/ml. Those were the average isotretinoin levels BEFORE they were given either vitamin A supplements or liver.

After the consumption of 50 mg (150 mg) of calf liver those levels increased 10-fold (more than 22-fold).

They went from an average of 1.4 ng/ml to 14 ng/ml and 31 ng/ml, respectively.

The overall exposure to isotretinoin reached a whopping 243 ng*h/ml (596 ng*h/ml).

[Supplementation with 50 mg (150 mg) of vitamin A caused an even higher overall exposure to isotretinoin of 359 ng*h/ml (674 ng*h/ml).]

The results of the study show that eating liver causes a SIGNIFICANT increase in isotretinoin and other known teratogenic metabolites of retinol.

The study authors wrongly discounted the dangers of eating liver because they were making wrong assumptions about the toxicities of the retinol metabolites.

In fact, at one point in the study, the authors admit that there is a possible risk of incurring birth defects from eating liver by writing:

"Even allowing for the 8-20 fold differences in all-trans-retinoic acid formation from supplements compared with liver, the foetal exposure after the consumption of large amounts of liver could theoretically approach those in women who produced malformed babies while taking vitamin supplements."

 

[Peatful]

Josh Rubin keeps it simple.
He’s smart.
And I don’t give out compliments easily.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Vitamin A retinol comes from foods like fatty fish (salmon, herring, mackerel, sardines), eggs, dairy and organ meats. Retinol is the active form of vitamin A most bioavailable to the body. Vitamin A from beta carotene or vitamin A from retinyl palmitate are not equivalent.

Beta-carotene is a precursor to Vitamin A (provitamin A) from plant sources that humans, especially low thyroid or hypothyroid humans, are VERY poor converters of beta-carotene and the more one eats, the less it is converted into retinol. Beta-carotene must be converted to retinol and research has shown this happens at a rate of about 3% AND requires thyroid hormone, copper, and vitamin C, to make this conversion.

Example: 3oz of beef liver contains approx. 9000mcg of retinol. To get the same amount in plant source, you would have to eat 40lbs of raw carrots or 50 cups of cooked Kale. Have fun!

So it is simple, mother nature always wins! Consume more foods with retinol = activate thyroid hormone receptor, convert thyroid hormone, the synthesis of TSH, supporting copper metabolism, regulating iron recycling and more.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Also this:

Thyroid hormone along with other vitamins and minerals such as vitamin A are needed for the synthesis of cholesterol into pregnenolone and other protective steroidal hormones.


^^^^^ This is huge



Lastly-

Vitamin A: the under-appreciated fat-soluble thyroid supportive vitamin.


Iodine, selenium, tyrosine and SUGAR get all the attention. But what about good ole Vitamin A? Why is it so important? It’s simple, your liver stores copper, and the only way it can be converted to its usable bio-available form (ceruloplasmin: Cp) is with Vitamin A (retinol). So we are looking at the importance of Vitamin A and its role in producing Cp.


Cp is needed to make TRH (Satwika et al. 2015), required to convert T4 to T3 (Elson Haas MD) and necessary for important enzyme: thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and Dual Oxidase Enzyme (DUOX). When copper is dysregulated, the enzymes don’t work, which will lead to thyroid issues.


To illustrate the point, first the thyroid gland absorbs iodine from food, then the iodide is oxidized by TPO into active iodine. Once oxidized these molecules attach to the tyrosine found in thyroglobulin (produced by the thyroid gland). When iodine and tyrosine join, they create the thyroid hormone precursors T1 and T2, which then combine to form thyroid hormones T3 and T4. Without enough bioavailable copper, this doesn’t happen efficiently. A doctor may instruct a patient to increase iodine if T4 is not converting into T3, when the real problem is the liver and a lack of bioavailable copper.



So what if the symptoms of hypothyroidism- fatigue, weight gain, anemia, hair loss, high cholesterol, bone loss, brain fog, etc.-

are ACTUALLY SYMPTOMS OF LOW BIO-AVAILABLE COPPER:



How to boost bio-available copper:


Eliminate things that deplete copper: GMO, HFCS, Drugs: SSRIs, diuretics, pain meds, muscle relaxants, GERD, NSAIDs, Supplements: Vit A, Iron, Calcium, Zinc and Vitamin D.



Get more retinol rich foods: fatty fish, eggs, dairy, organ meats



Get more copper-rich foods: shellfish, whitefish, pots, mushrooms, organ meats



Get more whole food C: citrus fruits, papaya, cherries, strawberries



The key point is finding what foods work, how much and when, to ensure you are meeting your body's needs each day.

——————————————————-

Hope this helps.

——————————————————-

I was previously banned btw
Glad to be back
Thx for having me…..

 

[charlie]

Josh Rubin keeps it simple.
He’s smart.
And I don’t give out compliments easily

You can be smart and still be misled. He is on the bad science, so is @haidut.

 

[Peatful]

You can be smart and still be misled. He is on the bad science, so is @haidut.

Thx again for having me back C

 

[charlie]

Thx again for having me back C

Good to see you.

 

[Ras]

The in vivo doses used in rodents were 1000 to 9000 IU. Any adult taking the equivalent dose would likely end up in the hospital.

What? Some people take more than 100,000 IU of Vitamin A as retinyl palmitate per day.

 

[S.Holmes]

Ah see you are are under the impression supplements are different than food. Sure supplements can raise certain metabolites of retinol more than liver but liver raises the metabolites as well check out this study: The teratogenic metabolites of vitamin A in women following supplements and liver - PubMed

They took 10 female volunteers and gave them either vitamin A supplements or calf liver to eat (50 mg and 150 mg of vit A).

They measured the following retinol metabolites (vitamin A by-products):
- All-trans-retinol
- All-trans-retinyl palmitate
- 13-cis-4-oxo-retinoic acid
- 13-cis-retinoic acid (= isotretinoin)
- All-trans-retinoic acid
- All-trans-4-oxo retinoic acid

All of those metabolites have known teratogenic (birth defect inducing) properties. All metabolites spiked both after the oral supplementation with vitamin A as well as after the consumption of calf liver with equivalent vitamin A content.

But vitamin A supplements caused a significantly higher spike in all-trans-retinoic acid than eating liver (supplements caused a 8 to 20-fold spike of all-trans-retinoic acid as compared to liver).

This led the study authors to express the opinion that the risk of birth defects after eating liver was negligible relative to its potential benefits.

But this conclusion was based on a wrong assumption.

The study authors assumed that the most dangerous of the 6 measured byproducts was all-trans-retinoic acid.

They called it the "principle teratogenic metabolite of retinol".

Given that eating liver caused only an insignificant increase in all-trans-retinoic acid levels (relative to the increase caused by vitamin A supplements), they thought that eating liver was consequently not a concern for pregnant women.

We now know that this assumption is not correct. We know that one of the 6 measured metabolites, 13-cis-retinoic acid (also known as isotretinoin) is highly teratogenic. It can cause birth defects in up to 35% of babies exposed to it: Isotretinoin (Accutane®)

Women, who are prescribed Isotretinoin have to sign a pledge to not become pregnant while taking the drug.

It is so toxic, that people are not allowed to donate blood while taking isotretinoin and up to a month afterwards:

So what did eating liver do to the levels of isotretinoin?

The study showed that eating liver increased the levels of isotretinoin more than 22-fold.

The baseline concentration of isotretinoin among the study participants was at around 1.4 ng/ml. Those were the average isotretinoin levels BEFORE they were given either vitamin A supplements or liver.

After the consumption of 50 mg (150 mg) of calf liver those levels increased 10-fold (more than 22-fold).

They went from an average of 1.4 ng/ml to 14 ng/ml and 31 ng/ml, respectively.

The overall exposure to isotretinoin reached a whopping 243 ng*h/ml (596 ng*h/ml).

[Supplementation with 50 mg (150 mg) of vitamin A caused an even higher overall exposure to isotretinoin of 359 ng*h/ml (674 ng*h/ml).]

The results of the study show that eating liver causes a SIGNIFICANT increase in isotretinoin and other known teratogenic metabolites of retinol.

The study authors wrongly discounted the dangers of eating liver because they were making wrong assumptions about the toxicities of the retinol metabolites.

In fact, at one point in the study, the authors admit that there is a possible risk of incurring birth defects from eating liver by writing:

"Even allowing for the 8-20 fold differences in all-trans-retinoic acid formation from supplements compared with liver, the foetal exposure after the consumption of large amounts of liver could theoretically approach those in women who produced malformed babies while taking vitamin supplements."

Supplements ARE NOT the same as food. There's a reason the ratio of beef liver to beef muscle (on the hoof) is significant. We should not consume high amounts of liver (or ANY organ meat). I need to see a good in vivo study that uses "reasonable" amounts of vit A foods.

 

[S.Holmes]

What? Some people take more than 100,000 IU of Vitamin A as retinyl palmitate per day.

They're asking for trouble.

 

[InChristAlone]

Supplements ARE NOT the same as food. There's a reason the ratio of beef liver to beef muscle (on the hoof) is significant. We should not consume high amounts of liver (or ANY organ meat). I need to see a good in vivo study that uses "reasonable" amounts of vit A foods.

Did you read the post? I just showed that liver increases vitamin A metabolites just like vitamin A supps. Eat liver and you will have circulating accutane in your blood.

 

[S.Holmes]

Did you read the post? I just showed that liver increases vitamin A metabolites just like vitamin A supps. Eat liver and you will have circulating accutane in your blood.

I don't eat liver

 

[InChristAlone]

I don't eat liver

Good! but that wasn't the point, the point was showing food vs supps end up down the same pathways.

 

[charlie]

What? Some people take more than 100,000 IU of Vitamin A as retinyl palmitate per day.

Until the liver fills up, then boom, the cascade begins.

 

[S.Holmes]

I skimmed this study looking for in vivo experiments. It looks like they were using vit A in supplement form, not from food. That would be like saying red meat is bad because of toxic iron. We all know you can get too much of a "good" thing.

The in vivo doses used in rodents were 1000 to 9000 IU. Any adult taking the equivalent dose would likely end up in the hospital.

40 grams vs 80,000 grams. That's the approximate weight ratio of a lab rat to a human. And the rats are being dosed with 1,000 to 9,000 IU of A. I don't think the study is helpful. That being said, I don't think supplementing vit A is helpful either.

 

[S.Holmes]

40 grams vs 80,000 grams. That's the approximate weight ratio of a lab rat to a human. And the rats are being dosed with 1,000 to 9,000 IU of A. I don't think the study is helpful. That being said, I don't think supplementing vit A is helpful either.

All I need is a simple in VIVO study that proves eating "normal" amounts of fruits and vegetables containing vitamin A is unhealthy. Does one exist or is that too much to ask for?

 

[Kimster]

Josh Rubin keeps it simple.
He’s smart.
And I don’t give out compliments easily.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Vitamin A retinol comes from foods like fatty fish (salmon, herring, mackerel, sardines), eggs, dairy and organ meats. Retinol is the active form of vitamin A most bioavailable to the body. Vitamin A from beta carotene or vitamin A from retinyl palmitate are not equivalent.

Beta-carotene is a precursor to Vitamin A (provitamin A) from plant sources that humans, especially low thyroid or hypothyroid humans, are VERY poor converters of beta-carotene and the more one eats, the less it is converted into retinol. Beta-carotene must be converted to retinol and research has shown this happens at a rate of about 3% AND requires thyroid hormone, copper, and vitamin C, to make this conversion.

Example: 3oz of beef liver contains approx. 9000mcg of retinol. To get the same amount in plant source, you would have to eat 40lbs of raw carrots or 50 cups of cooked Kale. Have fun!

So it is simple, mother nature always wins! Consume more foods with retinol = activate thyroid hormone receptor, convert thyroid hormone, the synthesis of TSH, supporting copper metabolism, regulating iron recycling and more.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Also this:

Thyroid hormone along with other vitamins and minerals such as vitamin A are needed for the synthesis of cholesterol into pregnenolone and other protective steroidal hormones.


^^^^^ This is huge



Lastly-

Vitamin A: the under-appreciated fat-soluble thyroid supportive vitamin.


Iodine, selenium, tyrosine and SUGAR get all the attention. But what about good ole Vitamin A? Why is it so important? It’s simple, your liver stores copper, and the only way it can be converted to its usable bio-available form (ceruloplasmin: Cp) is with Vitamin A (retinol). So we are looking at the importance of Vitamin A and its role in producing Cp.


Cp is needed to make TRH (Satwika et al. 2015), required to convert T4 to T3 (Elson Haas MD) and necessary for important enzyme: thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and Dual Oxidase Enzyme (DUOX). When copper is dysregulated, the enzymes don’t work, which will lead to thyroid issues.


To illustrate the point, first the thyroid gland absorbs iodine from food, then the iodide is oxidized by TPO into active iodine. Once oxidized these molecules attach to the tyrosine found in thyroglobulin (produced by the thyroid gland). When iodine and tyrosine join, they create the thyroid hormone precursors T1 and T2, which then combine to form thyroid hormones T3 and T4. Without enough bioavailable copper, this doesn’t happen efficiently. A doctor may instruct a patient to increase iodine if T4 is not converting into T3, when the real problem is the liver and a lack of bioavailable copper.



So what if the symptoms of hypothyroidism- fatigue, weight gain, anemia, hair loss, high cholesterol, bone loss, brain fog, etc.-

are ACTUALLY SYMPTOMS OF LOW BIO-AVAILABLE COPPER:



How to boost bio-available copper:


Eliminate things that deplete copper: GMO, HFCS, Drugs: SSRIs, diuretics, pain meds, muscle relaxants, GERD, NSAIDs, Supplements: Vit A, Iron, Calcium, Zinc and Vitamin D.



Get more retinol rich foods: fatty fish, eggs, dairy, organ meats



Get more copper-rich foods: shellfish, whitefish, pots, mushrooms, organ meats



Get more whole food C: citrus fruits, papaya, cherries, strawberries



The key point is finding what foods work, how much and when, to ensure you are meeting your body's needs each day.

——————————————————-

Hope this helps.

——————————————————-

I was previously banned btw
Glad to be back
Thx for having me…..

Maybe you've seen Morley Robinson's book : CUre : Your Fatigue Morley Robbins - Cu-RE Your Fatigue Book He goes in depth on balancing Iron , Copper, Magnesium Morley is a huge fan of blood donations to dump Iron, says we're rusting from the inside out. Listening to Morley recite scientific papers makes you think he and Georgi were twins separated at birth. The late great Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez had the same skill, till he was taken out for curing Pancreatic cancer regularly. Can't have that!

 

[InChristAlone]

All I need is a simple in VIVO study that proves eating "normal" amounts of fruits and vegetables containing vitamin A is unhealthy. Does one exist or is that too much to ask for?

RDA is actually 300mcg based on studies. If you are consuming high beta carotene fruits and veggies you are going over that and will slowly become more toxic as the days go by. Pretty much everyone has too much by mid age.

 

[InChristAlone]

There's no magic supplement that completely nullifies the toxic effects of retinol, because the toxicity comes from the chronic overingestion and burdening of the liver and subsequent overflowing into blood and tissues. There are countless things that help the body deal with certain problems when it's out of balance. And there are helpful nutrients that protect the body to some degree from toxicity - things like zinc, ascorbic acid, choline, vitamin E, K, etc. Obviously a diet should be high in any of those nutrients.

One can include all the perfect nutrients with a retinol-rich meal and feel better, but all of those nutrients don't change the fact that excess retinol gets stored away into the liver and you have to deal with it inevitably at one point in the future.

So there's really nothing that replaces a diet of reasonable vA intake. I think the physiological healthy amount of retinol is below 300mcg.

Looking at the official data, there are numerous clues that the body doesn't even use up 300mcg per day for physiological processes.

https://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/consultation/consultation/141117.pdf

Actual utilization for body processes seems to be around 50-200mcg every day.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916522038977

The RDA is mostly political, as the implications of a RDA of 200 or 300mcg are substantial. They just tried to get the RDA as close as possible to the actual average intake of the population to not having to declare a public emergency of chronic toxicity.

 

[S.Holmes]

RDA is actually 300mcg based on studies. If you are consuming high beta carotene fruits and veggies you are going over that and will slowly become more toxic as the days go by. Pretty much everyone has too much by mid age.

Where's the sauce for "everyone has too much by mid-age"?

 

[Peatful]

Had not.

Thx