Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Jabuger]

@Jabuger Do you think there is a difference in hepatic absorption through butter versus fat-free dairy products?

To my understanding I don’t think it matters what the source of retinol is too much as it’s going to be taken up by the liver after it enters the blood stream. I don’t think fat free dairy products have much retinol but Grant has argued that the protein in dairy products bind to retinoic acid and claims this is why rats died in these VA deficient diets as they weren’t actually deficient.

Also retinol in certain products may degrade to retinoic acid and or anhydroretinol (which is potently toxic) so I’d say the safest source of retinol if you think it is necessary would be eggs. I’d just like to say my knowledge is limited so I wouldn’t direct your questions at me (I’m a noob).

 

[DanDare]

Biochemical but not clinical vitamin A deficiency results from mutations in the gene for retinol binding protein

Interesting case study, not much info though.


“Interestingly, intestinal absorption of retinyl esters was normal”


“The genetic defect induced severe biochemical vitamin A deficiency but only mild clinical symptoms (night blindness and a modest retinal dystrophy without effects on growth).

Conclusions: We conclude that the cellular supply of vitamin A to target tissues might be bypassed in these siblings via circulating retinyl esters, beta-carotene, or retinoic acid, thereby maintaining the health of peripheral tissues.”

This conclusion is based on assumptions which are incorrect

 

[Kyle970]

This may be a little controversial but i think it's worth discussing. Depending on how risk averse you are, this may sound either crazy or brilliant.

One of the big issues as i understand it is that as the liver releases stored Poisonal et al. in bile, it can be reabsorbed at a fairly high rate. It would make sense then to use a strong purgative that flushes out the liver, gallbladder stomach etc. wouldn't it? Such a purgative exists and it is associated with healing blindness, depression, fatigue, addiction and chronic illness. Blindness is the one that really catches my attention.

Kambo is used in the amazon as a medicine and as a hunting aid. The secretions from the skin of the frog Phyllomedusa bicolor are collected and dried on flat pieces of wood. The person being treated usually drinks large quantities of water (multiple litres) very quicky before several small round burn mark are made with a stick on the skin of the shoulder or ankle. the frog secretion is then applied to the burn mark. This makes you vomit with great force. The intensity of the purge depends largely on the quantity of venom used and the number of burns. traditionally 1-4 burns were made, as with most things in the west people have taken this to the extreme with some people apply 20+ burns, sometimes purging is done back to back to back...

Very quickly your body becomes hot and flushed and the face swells right up. the stomach, gall bladder and liver purge a huge amount of bile and whatever else into the huge amount of water sitting in the stomach and you vomit pretty violently for about 15 minutes max. then you feel pretty great! The color of the vomit is usually florescent yellow/green though many people take it far enough to produce orange and even black vomit. THE LIVER REALLY DOES PURGE INTO THE STOMACH AND INTESTINES. and in a significant way too. Minimal reabsorption. even less with charcoal beforehand.

Could the miraculous healing effects of Kambo be attributed to it's detoxification of poisonal and associates? I think so. There are some pretty powerful opiates and other things in the venom that undoubtedly have an impact, but, if people really are recovering their eyesight from concurrent sessions lasting a week or two, then I think there is something more going on. Kambo doesn't get you high but whatever you do don't ingest it or put it on any mucous membrane. the chemicals in it will not play nicely with your brain using it that way. it's strictly a lymphatic thing.

I've done Kambo quite a few times, as far as I know it's VERY SAFE and I've not heard of anyone dying etc. from it despite the massive immune response the body has to it. I'm not sure what the long term effects might be after say a decade of use, though I'm fairly confident in it's safety for most people and it has been used in the amazon for a long long time. The hype around ceremonies is bull****, it's easy to buy and administer yourself, the only downside is your face will be very swollen for a day or so depending on how many burns you administer. for some people it may not swell at all. The feeling immediately after the purge is awesome, relief, accomplishment, adrenaline. the day of and day after I usually experience a bit of fatigue. From there the subsequent week is AWESOME. There really is something powerful about going through with it all and overcoming the discomfort. I usualy have a big smile on my face right before it all comes out. it's great.



The question is, could a weeks worth of kambo achieve the same result as 6months+ of diet, reabsorption and detox symptoms? would it be easier on the body to go through a few purges, or all that reabsorption and detoxification? obviously not everyone is going to jump at the idea of burning frog poion into their skin and throwing their guts up however for some people it may be the perfect solution to years of detox symptoms. You would probably want to use kambo daily or every second day for a week or two to really see if it can make a significant impact on detox. Frog face is a real problem, you wouldn't want to be spending a lot of time in public.. if you used it at night you might get away with it the next morning. I would recommend using activated charcoal beforehand as the liver purges into the small intestine aswell as the stomach. last time I used it I got a nasty ulcer, fatigue etc. the next day. I'm presuming my liver dumped a lot of poisonal into my small intestine, it sure felt like it.

You can find lots of testimonials and experiences on this forum
Kambo - Index



I am not endorsing kambo, it might be another tool in the tool belt, who knows. It's worth mentioning.
Grant's response was that it's obviously a toxin and it's risky; which is fair. sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. Risk aversion right..

That sounds like quite the workout.
I may just start with tobacco leaf tea.

 

[NoSomosNadie]

Bump. Interested.

 

[tallglass13]

To my understanding I don’t think it matters what the source of retinol is too much as it’s going to be taken up by the liver after it enters the blood stream. I don’t think fat free dairy products have much retinol but Grant has argued that the protein in dairy products bind to retinoic acid and claims this is why rats died in these VA deficient diets as they weren’t actually deficient.

Also retinol in certain products may degrade to retinoic acid and or anhydroretinol (which is potently toxic) so I’d say the safest source of retinol if you think it is necessary would be eggs. I’d just like to say my knowledge is limited so I wouldn’t direct your questions at me (I’m a noob).

Unfortunately Fat Free Dairy is the worst because it is Fortified with Vitamin A and D. According to Ray Peat, the fortification is not always controlled and sometimes the machines that squirt the Vitamin A in the milk are not calibrated properly and alot can go into the milk. Ray stated that whole milk would be better if you are concerned with VA. Raw milk can be skimmed by the person and would be a better way to go.

 

[FitnessMike]

I tend to agree that people were on the wrong track with choline. I think it could be due to some kind of liver flush effect. There's even an egg yolk liver flush recipe out there.

Edwin’s Egg Yolk Liver Flushing | The Cure Manual

For majority of the people who are sick with cancer or other diseases, the liver needs cleaning and nourishing. What better way to do this than with egg yolk liver flushing as the liver is nourished and cleansed at the same time. If this is the first time you are doing a liver flush, you

www.curemanual.com

I am not sure it slows down detox, as I compared its effects to all kinds of other problematic foods like milk and carotene rich vegetables, and I never had an effect comparable to eggs.

There was one guy on the genereux forum who went without eggs for 5 years on a zero A diet and only got worse, until he added in eggs, and he needs one per day to feel good.

Probably speaks to some kind of liver block, so not everyone needs it.

Others don't do well on it at all.

I was going back and forth with eggs, every time i stop eating them it somehow impair my liver function, i got blood sugar swings and cant go long in between meals.

 

[Dr. B]

Unfortunately Fat Free Dairy is the worst because it is Fortified with Vitamin A and D. According to Ray Peat, the fortification is not always controlled and sometimes the machines that squirt the Vitamin A in the milk are not calibrated properly and alot can go into the milk. Ray stated that whole milk would be better if you are concerned with VA. Raw milk can be skimmed by the person and would be a better way to go.

Good point’s I wasn’t aware Ray had mentioned that there can be much more of those vitamins than stated on label. The dosage of them is fairly low I think its like 800IU D3 per half gallon or gallon. A doses are higher. But the issue Ray discussed extensively was the fact there are filler ingredients in the vitamin mixtures. Because they use liquid vitamin pack’s blended into the milks, basically all, from what ive heard all of the vitamin fortified milks use the same few kinds of liquid vitamin additive packs. They have the vitamin A and D plus water, plus propylene glycol and polysorbate 80. I think haidut or someone else said they could even be using carrageenan in some of them? The propylene glycol is a preservative because its a liquid vitamin mixture it needs to be preserved. The polysorbate 80 is an emulsifier. Carrageenan is also an emulsifier. They need the emulsifiers so it stays suspended evenly in the milk otherwise, the entire vitamin mixture would settle in the bottom of the milk bottle.

Some people said there could be silica in the mixture too, that doesnt make sense because silica is usually used as a moisture absorbent so if silica did show up in milks it may be contamination from other products in the factory. I know one brand of milk had the same polysorbate 80, and propylene glycol and also had sunflower oil as well. On the label they can just put vitamin A and D added and dont have to label all these filler additives because theyre part of the vitamin mixture and are considered as being in small amounts so don’t require labeling.

But besides all that one thing Ray didnt talk about is these supplemental forms of A just arent the same as getting A from whole milk or even liver. I havent tested out eating fresh raw liver, but I have tested out drinking half gallon whole milk, using ancestral supplements liver organ products which totalled out to an ounce of liver, which I believe container 5000IU of vitamin A. And the effects of getting 3000-5000IU A from whole milk or cheese or freeze dried liver, are nothing like supplementing 3000-5000IU retinyl palmitate. The supplement soirce had several side effects like joint pain, hair loss, oily skin and scalp, red inflamed skin… stomach effects etc.

 

[Dr. B]

I was going back and forth with eggs, every time i stop eating them it somehow impair my liver function, i got blood sugar swings and cant go long in between meals.

Eggs have choline but you can also get it from beef and milk correct. Is it part of the beef fat and milk fat, so fattier milk and beef has more?

 

[FitnessMike]

Eggs have choline but you can also get it from beef and milk correct. Is it part of the beef fat and milk fat, so fattier milk and beef has more?

I got this good effect only from eggs, once i stop them i start to belch after food and blood sugar swings to some extend

 

[DanDare]

Eggs have choline but you can also get it from beef and milk correct. Is it part of the beef fat and milk fat, so fattier milk and beef has more?

Fattier beef actually has less according to nutritional stats therefore it it is concentrated in the non- fat portion

 

[DanDare]

Eggs have every vitamin and mineral necessary for the development of a young chicken as well as chemicals to defend themseelves from attack. I'd like to see the pro eggs for choline anecdotes account for exactly how it was choline that was responsible for the improvement and not say one of these other nutrients.

 

[Jabuger]

Unfortunately Fat Free Dairy is the worst because it is Fortified with Vitamin A and D. According to Ray Peat, the fortification is not always controlled and sometimes the machines that squirt the Vitamin A in the milk are not calibrated properly and alot can go into the milk. Ray stated that whole milk would be better if you are concerned with VA. Raw milk can be skimmed by the person and would be a better way to go.

Milk is not fortified in my country.

 

[tallglass13]

Milk is not fortified in my country.

Nice!

 

[Highserotonin90]

I believe that in Europe it is not fortified

 

[Peater]

You still get retinoic acid with the casein content.

That's literally one of the studies that got Grant interested in the whole thing.

 

[DanDare]

You still get retinoic acid with the casein content.

That's literally one of the studies that got Grant interested in the whole thing.

Yes indeed:

Binding of vitamin A with milk α- and β-caseins

The binding sites of retinol and retinoic acid with milk α- and β-caseins were determined, using constant protein concentration and various retinoid c…

www.sciencedirect.com

"The number of bound retinol molecules per protein (n) was 1.5 (±0.1) for α-casein and 1.0 (±0.1) for β-casein, while 1 molecule of retinoic acid was bound in the α- and β-casein complexes. Molecular modelling showed different binding sites for retinol and retinoic acid on α– and β-caseins with more stable complexes formed with α-casein. Retinoid–casein complexation induced minor alterations of protein conformation. Caseins might act as carriers for transportation of retinoids to target molecules."


Proteins are like soil for minerals and other nutrients...

So for example clay soils hold onto potassium, but not sodium, hence the ocean is high in sodium, extremely low in potassium. In our bodies, if the proteins are formed correctly, they hold onto what they require, what they are designed for ( so bone cells make a protein scaffold which has an affinity for calcium). And heart cells are made which do not hold onto calcium. If something goes wrong with the protein synthesis ( caused by vitamin a) we have a tissue which binds to the wrong thing.

 

[Peater]

Proteins are like soil for minerals and other nutrients...

So for example clay soils hold onto potassium, but not sodium, hence the ocean is high in sodium, extremely low in potassium. In our bodies, if the proteins are formed correctly, they hold onto what they require, what they are designed for ( so bone cells make a protein scaffold which has an affinity for calcium). And heart cells are made which do not hold onto calcium. If something goes wrong with the protein synthesis ( caused by vitamin a) we have a tissue which binds to the wrong thing.

Thanks for the simple explanation on that subject. A very understandable way of putting it.

 

[Highserotonin90]

@DanDare So can we say that ocean PH is acidic? Does vitamin A decrease protein synthesis?

 

[DanDare]

@DanDare So can we say that ocean PH is acidic? Does vitamin A decrease protein synthesis?

First part is easy, ocean pH is 8.1, so alkaline.

2nd party is harder. Mainstream understanding is that vitamin A is theoretically necessary for gene regulation and hence cell differentiation. What is sure is it does indeed interact with gene expression and cell differentiation.
However if people are walking around with levels of almost zero with good skin then it appears that interaction has only been assumed to be good and necessary, and infact it isn't.

Experimentally, vitamin A increases the rate of epithelial cells proliferation, so like skin refreshes in 14 days instead of 28.

Grant talks about his theory of how vitamin A interferes with making proteins correctly here I'm his 9 year update:

"
So now, just what do you suppose is responsible for causing the messed-up structure of the proteins generated by the pancreatic and other tissue stem cells? How about we seriously consider it to be a toxic molecule that has now been proven to cause about 500 different gene “expressions” in stem cells. Except, to most of us here it’s now clear these are, in actuality, sites of gene “damage” and not that of gene “expressions” at all. That gene damage then messes up the cell’s protein weaving machinery. Naturally, the follow-on consequence is going to be the defective structures of the manufactured proteins.

Somewhat like with the wild goose chase of genetics, there’s been a vast amount of research in trying to correct the misfolding proteins using pharmaceutical drugs. Of course, that effort has been futile. Additionally, most research is narrowly focused right down into trying to decipher what’s wrong with the protein structure, Oddy, it appears most people are only asking why the protein is misfolding, as if something has gone wrong with it post manufacturing. They they are not considering that it has been expressly manufactured that way due to RNA/DNA damage."

Ideas, Concepts, and Observations

Investigating why so many are so sick.

ggenereux.blog

 

[Richiebogie]

"The number of bound retinol molecules per protein (n) was 1.5 (±0.1) for α-casein and 1.0 (±0.1) for β-casein, while 1 molecule of retinoic acid was bound in the α- and β-casein complexes.

Someone suggested the chemical formula of casein is

C81H125N22O39P

which has a molecular weight of 2060


The chemical formula of retinol is

C20H30O

which has a molecular weight of 286

So a single retinol bound to a single casein means that retinol is 286 / (286 + 2060) of the total. Retinol is about 12% the mass of the casein / retinol combination.

Google says:

“The four proteins in bovine casein, αs1-, αs2-, β- and κ-, represent approximately 38, 10, 36 and 12%, respectively, of whole casein.”

Achim Treumann on researchgate.net writes:

If we look at bovine (cow) beta casein (http://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P02666, here you will also find a lot of research references on the structure of casein), the mature form of the unmodified protein has 209 amino acids. If you try and get a sum formula for this, you would arrive at C1080H1692N268O310S6. As the protein is generally phosphorylated, this would change a bit (e.g. for the triply phosphorylated protein to C1080H1695N268O319S6P3), but it would still be a very big molecule, unlike the salt C47-H48-N3-O7-S2-Na, which is definitively not a protein.

The molecular mass of this is 12*1080 + 1695 + 14*268 + 16*319 + 32*6 + 31*3 =

Is it 1.5 retinols for one of these casein proteins? Then the percentage of retinol to retinol+casein by mass becomes



Someone in quora writes:

“Casein makes up around 80% of the protein in milk, and it is a slow-digesting protein that is often used in protein supplements and bodybuilding products.

The other main type of protein found in milk is whey. Whey makes up around 20% of the protein in milk, and it is a fast-digesting protein that is often used in protein supplements and protein bars.”

So does whey bind to retinol too?