Why DHT doesn’t cause hair loss - My response to Kevin Mann

[rr1]

The pituitary PRL secretion can be inhibited by use of bromocriptine and other dopamine receptor 2 agonists (Nature Clinical Practice Endocrinology and Metabolism 2(10): 571-581, 2006). These agents, however, do not suppress extrapituitary PRL synthesis that can compensate successfully for the inhibition of pituitary PRL synthesis leading to almost unimpaired PRLR-mediated signaling (Endocrine Reviews 19:225-268, 1998).
(WO2019011719A1 - Prolactin receptor antibody for male and female pattern hair loss - Google Patents)

---

Hair follicles synthesize their own prolactin which remains unphased by common means of reducing systemic prolactin. BAY 1158061 is a prolactin receptor antibody which effectively neutralizes PRL inside of the cell. The hair growth trials showed it continued to work even for months after quitting the drug, so clearly it does something that just taking B6 or Bromo cannot do.

I guess we could debate what the reason is for prolactin being a problem in the follicles but as long as it gives people who can't tolerate antiandrogens an alternative with less side effects (or positive ones), I'm not going to be too fussed whether it's the "right" way of fixing this.

Okay thanks for the explanation. I can definitely see the merits in this, since it's been shown that prolactin is elevated in the scalp of balding men (along with a variety of other stress hormones). And even something as basic as stopping frequent ejaculation (which drastically triggers prolactin) has stopped the itching and slowed hair loss in a lot of men. I can see how this medication could help some people. Also, Peat recently recommended Bromocriptine to someone reporting skin issues, who also had slightly elevated prolactin. The bromo fixed all of his skin problems. If this medication is successful, it may also help against some skin problems, sebhorric dermatitis, etc.

But I still don't believe it will help everyone, and I'm sure there will be some negatives effects, as with all medication. I'm sure a bioenergetic approach along with this would still be greatly beneficial. And this may be years away, if it even does get approved, so best to start now for anyone who may be waiting for this.

We should try to keep on topic however, and bring this back to DHT. Something which I didn't mention before, the guy in the photos I linked has reported that since 7-8 months ago, his T and DHT levels have skyrocketed. So there's one more anecdote to add to the 'DHT doesn't cause hair loss'.

Also great post @Hans. And great interview with Sam Empie. I've already recommended these to a few of my friends.

 

[Mrscorpion360]

Okay thanks for the explanation. I can definitely see the merits in this, since it's been shown that prolactin is elevated in the scalp of balding men (along with a variety of other stress hormones). And even something as basic as stopping frequent ejaculation (which drastically triggers prolactin) has stopped the itching and slowed hair loss in a lot of men. I can see how this medication could help some people. Also, Peat recently recommended Bromocriptine to someone reporting skin issues, who also had slightly elevated prolactin. The bromo fixed all of his skin problems. If this medication is successful, it may also help against some skin problems, sebhorric dermatitis, etc.

But I still don't believe it will help everyone, and I'm sure there will be some negatives effects, as with all medication. I'm sure a bioenergetic approach along with this would still be greatly beneficial. And this may be years away, if it even does get approved, so best to start now for anyone who may be waiting for this.

We should try to keep on topic however, and bring this back to DHT. Something which I didn't mention before, the guy in the photos I linked has reported that since 7-8 months ago, his T and DHT levels have skyrocketed. So there's one more anecdote to add to the 'DHT doesn't cause hair loss'.

Also great post @Hans. And great interview with Sam Empie. I've already recommended these to a few of my friends.

Those pictures are damn awesome.

 

[miraddo]

Lol.... Tell that to everyone else who has stopped their hair loss and regrown without 'antiandrogens'. The comments saying finasteride is all you can do, and nothing else will work, really get annoying after a while.

This got posted by someone in a discord group, who apparently is doing 1on1 with Danny Roddy and not using any anti androgens. Just low stress, peaty diet with milk, vitd/vitk, aspirin, lifting weights, massaging etc.
View attachment 25400View attachment 25401
Tell this guy that if antiandrogens dont work for him, then nothing will.

Tell myself, and the MANY other people I've talked to, who have also had results just as good, that if antiandrogens don't work, then nothing will!

Also, before you try to say, "these people never had 'AGA', just diffuse thinning", please save your breath. That used to be 'funny', or something one may entertain, but not anymore.

what discord group is this?

 

[miraddo]

I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad.. that people who are aware of the Ray Peat community still don't know what Ray was trying to get at...

From my understanding, aging sets in right at puberty.. why? puberty itself marks a period of increase in androgens and therefore of estrogen. This coincides with greater activity of the pituitary gland. A delicate balance is required to introduce the highly energy intensive reproductive/sexual function and at the same time maintain the body's structure.

This delicate balance can become easily disregulated by the accumulation of many environmental stressors and poisons. ie polyunsaturated fatty acid accumulation in storage, heavy metal accumulation, EMF, socioeconomic stress, psychosocial stress, generational stress and prenatal stress.

In balding men, DHT, like DHEA-S, rises to counteract the myriad of stressors, the reductionists have taken this to mean that it is the CAUSE of the problem. Just like saturated fat takes the blame for the damage that unsaturated fats do.

Females do experience some balding but not to the degree of men because they have ovaries which produce massive amounts of progesterone to balance estrogen. They generally have better ratio of progesterone:estrogen vs the balding man who may have lower estrogen but not as good a ratio.

Eunuchs don't bald - because they don't have androgens which can aromatase into estrogen.

Addison's disease people don't bald (ie JFK) because they don't produce cortisol.

It seems that if you completely knock out one or more of these stress signalling hormones you can halt or reverse the balding process, because they are all required to create a self sustaining loop of stress.

As Peat has mentioned many times, the aim should be to lower all the stress substances, as they seem to support one another: estrogen, endotoxin, nitric oxide, parathyroid hormone, prostaglandin, prolactin, cortisol, aldosterone, serotonin, iron, polyunsaturated fats.

 

[Hans]

Also great post @Hans. And great interview with Sam Empie. I've already recommended these to a few of my friends.

Thanks man, much appreciated.

 

[RPDiciple]

Where can i get DHT?

 

[Charger]

@Hans, where do you stand on histamine, whether it's a stress hormone, and it's potential role in hair loss?

I learned from reading your blog and also @redsun's posts about the benefits of increasing histamine and that it also supposedly increases 5ar. I notice more focus and less anxiety when supplementing L-Histidine, but I feel like it's the most powerful driver of thinning/loss in my case, moreso than lowering estro or increasing DHT directly. It would make sense why antihistamines used topically (such as cetirizine) have been shown to be beneficial for hair.

Peat and those on RPF typically consider histamine to be a stress hormone, but considering it also increases 5ar/DHT, I'm torn on whether or not it's something I should be increasing when I feel cognitive benefits but see an increase in hair loss.

And this seems to be a common thing in my experience and others I've talked to. The better, more driven, motivated, or androgenic we tend to feel, the more hair loss seems to progress or accelerate. Hair loss almost seems to be a trade between slowing the engine down and keeping your hair or improving performance and increasing hair loss. Which if hair loss is mostly driven by stress, wouldn't make a lot of sense to me, as the better my metabolism and androgens get, the better I tolerate stress and the more stable my mood.

Where can i get DHT?

Purple Panda Labs

 

[MyUsernameHere]

And this seems to be a common thing in my experience and others I've talked to. The better, more driven, motivated, or androgenic we tend to feel, the more hair loss seems to progress or accelerate. Hair loss almost seems to be a trade between slowing the engine down and keeping your hair or improving performance and increasing hair loss. Which if hair loss is mostly driven by stress, wouldn't make a lot of sense to me, as the better my metabolism and androgens get, the better I tolerate stress and the more stable my mood.

Yes. As a PFS sufferer, there is a directly proportional link between mental clarity, motivation, libido, and ever increasing aggresiveness of hair loss.

 

[Hans]

@Hans, where do you stand on histamine, whether it's a stress hormone, and it's potential role in hair loss?

I learned from reading your blog and also @redsun's posts about the benefits of increasing histamine and that it also supposedly increases 5ar. I notice more focus and less anxiety when supplementing L-Histidine, but I feel like it's the most powerful driver of thinning/loss in my case, moreso than lowering estro or increasing DHT directly. It would make sense why antihistamines used topically (such as cetirizine) have been shown to be beneficial for hair.

Peat and those on RPF typically consider histamine to be a stress hormone, but considering it also increases 5ar/DHT, I'm torn on whether or not it's something I should be increasing when I feel cognitive benefits but see an increase in hair loss.

And this seems to be a common thing in my experience and others I've talked to. The better, more driven, motivated, or androgenic we tend to feel, the more hair loss seems to progress or accelerate. Hair loss almost seems to be a trade between slowing the engine down and keeping your hair or improving performance and increasing hair loss. Which if hair loss is mostly driven by stress, wouldn't make a lot of sense to me, as the better my metabolism and androgens get, the better I tolerate stress and the more stable my mood.



Purple Panda Labs

If it's too high it can cause problems. If someone is in a compromised state of health, high histamine is most likely much worse, since it does have inflammatory effects. So in an inflammatory state, lowering overall inflammatory things might be best. Have you tried boosting dopamine and GABA instead?

 

[Riesensackteil]

Purple Panda Labs

EU people need a special tax number now

 

[Charger]

If it's too high it can cause problems. If someone is in a compromised state of health, high histamine is most likely much worse, since it does have inflammatory effects. So in an inflammatory state, lowering overall inflammatory things might be best. Have you tried boosting dopamine and GABA instead?

My typical daily stack pretty much centers on dopamine, lowering cortisol, serotonin, etc.

50mcg T3
120mg Ginkgo Biloba (Increase Dopamine)
1100mg Ginger (5-HT3 Antagonist/Anti-serotonin)
280mg Caffeine (Increase dopamine, anti-serotonin/estrogen)
300mg Thiamine HCL
300mg Forskolin (Increase cAMP and TH)
300mg Phosphatidyslerine (Lowers cortisol)
10,000IU Vitamin D3
3000mg Calcium Pyruvate (Lower PTH, Increase Dopamine)
334 Cat's Claw Extract (MAO-B Inhibitor, lowers estrogen by 40%)
8mg Manganese (Anti-serotonin)
500mg Kutaj Bark (H3 Antagonist)
1275mg Magnesium Malate

Occasionally: 2mg K2 MK4 (Kuinone), 1 drop Androsterone or DHT, 1 drop Pansterone, 500mg L-Histidine, 1 drop Allo or 5a-DHP,

While I'm typically focused and productive on this stack, I also tend to come off as almost too focused to a point where I come off as rude/unprofessional. I lack interest in others, only interested in getting things done. Which I would say is mostly a good thing from a work/productivity perspective, but a hindrance for socializing and forming relationships.

I think this might come down to cortisol being too low with the Phosphatidylserine or Cat's Claw. I've read a few anecdotes from others that Phosphatidylserine pretty much killed their desire to socialize, regardless I continue taking it because I notice I'm less irritable and have more patience at work. L-Histidine seems to turn that sociability back on while still being able to focus and be productive. Not sure if it's increasing serotonin and thus cortisol and turning the 'care' back on or what.

So, obviously I would like to lower cortisol, serotonin, and estrogen to reap the supposed benefits of doing so but not if it makes me robotic/kills my desire to socialize with others.

My cortisol was 9.3 ug/dL (6.2-19.4) in the AM on my most recent blood test. Which I think is lower than most I've seen, I've kinda wondered if I'm just pushing cortisol too low, which I didn't think was a possibility from a Peat perspective. ?‍

 

[Korven]

My typical daily stack pretty much centers on dopamine, lowering cortisol, serotonin, etc.

50mcg T3
120mg Ginkgo Biloba (Increase Dopamine)
1100mg Ginger (5-HT3 Antagonist/Anti-serotonin)
280mg Caffeine (Increase dopamine, anti-serotonin/estrogen)
300mg Thiamine HCL
300mg Forskolin (Increase cAMP and TH)
300mg Phosphatidyslerine (Lowers cortisol)
10,000IU Vitamin D3
3000mg Calcium Pyruvate (Lower PTH, Increase Dopamine)
334 Cat's Claw Extract (MAO-B Inhibitor, lowers estrogen by 40%)
8mg Manganese (Anti-serotonin)
500mg Kutaj Bark (H3 Antagonist)
1275mg Magnesium Malate

Occasionally: 2mg K2 MK4 (Kuinone), 1 drop Androsterone or DHT, 1 drop Pansterone, 500mg L-Histidine, 1 drop Allo or 5a-DHP,

While I'm typically focused and productive on this stack, I also tend to come off as almost too focused to a point where I come off as rude/unprofessional. I lack interest in others, only interested in getting things done. Which I would say is mostly a good thing from a work/productivity perspective, but a hindrance for socializing and forming relationships.

I think this might come down to cortisol being too low with the Phosphatidylserine or Cat's Claw. I've read a few anecdotes from others that Phosphatidylserine pretty much killed their desire to socialize, regardless I continue taking it because I notice I'm less irritable and have more patience at work. L-Histidine seems to turn that sociability back on while still being able to focus and be productive. Not sure if it's increasing serotonin and thus cortisol and turning the 'care' back on or what.

So, obviously I would like to lower cortisol, serotonin, and estrogen to reap the supposed benefits of doing so but not if it makes me robotic/kills my desire to socialize with others.

My cortisol was 9.3 ug/dL (6.2-19.4) in the AM on my most recent blood test. Which I think is lower than most I've seen, I've kinda wondered if I'm just pushing cortisol too low, which I didn't think was a possibility from a Peat perspective. ?‍

Hey I'm sure you have valid reasons for taking all of that stuff, but in my experience the shotgun approach rarely does what you want it to do. I've also found that you can push "bad hormones" such as cortisol and estrogen too low and feel awful. Just 1-2 drops of Androsterone makes me anti-social to the point where I can't even be in the same room as other people.

Also for me just getting the correct dose of thyroid was pretty difficult. If I also had to manage 10 other variables + diet at the same time I would be seriously confused.

Maybe try going back to a clean slate of just the T3 and see how you do? IMO optimal thyroid function and good diet should be plenty enough for lowering stress hormones and feeling good.

 

[edoos]

Very interesting.
What did you dissolve it in?

@Hans interesting finding, if finasteride effectiveness on MPB is not related to DHT inhibition could it be related to lower epinephrine since finasteride inhibit PMNT that convert norepinephrine into epinephrine? I’m currently using small dose of beta blocker .4mg of bisopropol and my hair look way better and stronger. Finasteride seem to lower adrenaline and beta blocker lower the effect of adrenaline.

 

[Charger]

Maybe try going back to a clean slate of just the T3 and see how you do? IMO optimal thyroid function and good diet should be plenty enough for lowering stress hormones and feeling good.

Yeah I've been meaning to refine the supplements I take, I don't necessarily need most of it, and on the weekends, today for example, I take about half of that stuff and feel better in some ways, but I'm also not under pressure to be productive on the weekends as I am at work.

I guess that says something to the importance of changing your environment, unfortunately, giving up on a 9-5 and earning a living isn't a realistic option for many of us and the supplements do help increase resilience to the day-to-day induced stress from work.

 

[Korven]

Yeah I've been meaning to refine the supplements I take, I don't necessarily need most of it, and on the weekends, today for example, I take about half of that stuff and feel better in some ways, but I'm also not under pressure to be productive on the weekends as I am at work.

I guess that says something to the importance of changing your environment, unfortunately, giving up on a 9-5 and earning a living isn't a realistic option for many of us and the supplements do help increase resilience to the day-to-day induced stress from work.

I get what you're saying about doing what's necessary to feel good and not get crushed by stress.

Cyproheptadine is amazing for me and helps me sleep and eat a ton of good food. Though I do take breaks where I use something else instead or no supplements at all. For me personally I've gotten the best health gains and increased stress resilience by tinkering with my diet, thyroid, liver/bile/small intestine and gut microbiome (and there are definitely substances that have been useful in supporting these systems).

 

[Hans]

@Hans interesting finding, if finasteride effectiveness on MPB is not related to DHT inhibition could it be related to lower epinephrine since finasteride inhibit PMNT that convert norepinephrine into epinephrine? I’m currently using small dose of beta blocker .4mg of bisopropol and my hair look way better and stronger. Finasteride seem to lower adrenaline and beta blocker lower the effect of adrenaline.

That is possible. I still suspect that finasteride had many other effects that haven't been looked at because researchers think they know the mechanism of actions.

 

[edoos]

That is possible. I still suspect that finasteride had many other effects that haven't been looked at because researchers think they know the mechanism of actions.

And here is the link: In Addition to Blocking 5α-R, Finasteride Inhibits Adrenaline Production, Possibly Inducing Sexual and Psychological Side Effects, New Research Suggests - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation

 

[Hans]

View attachment 25509
And here is the link: In Addition to Blocking 5α-R, Finasteride Inhibits Adrenaline Production, Possibly Inducing Sexual and Psychological Side Effects, New Research Suggests - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation

Yes I'm quite familiar with that moc, but what I'm trying to say is that I think there is more mechanisms that need to be explored.

 

[edoos]

Yes I'm quite familiar with that moc, but what I'm trying to say is that I think there is more mechanisms that need to be explored.

When I was on fin before having sides effect my athletic performance where to the roof with no feeling of "stess" during workout. After 9 months I got side and stay stuck into pfs for years and never gain back my resistance to stress even with workout I got wack out quite easily. Now I'm on beta blocker since having tachycardia due to insomnia and stress from PFS for years. I can say beta blocker work really well to lower my stress level.

 

[redsun]

@Hans, where do you stand on histamine, whether it's a stress hormone, and it's potential role in hair loss?

I learned from reading your blog and also @redsun's posts about the benefits of increasing histamine and that it also supposedly increases 5ar. I notice more focus and less anxiety when supplementing L-Histidine, but I feel like it's the most powerful driver of thinning/loss in my case, moreso than lowering estro or increasing DHT directly. It would make sense why antihistamines used topically (such as cetirizine) have been shown to be beneficial for hair.

Peat and those on RPF typically consider histamine to be a stress hormone, but considering it also increases 5ar/DHT, I'm torn on whether or not it's something I should be increasing when I feel cognitive benefits but see an increase in hair loss.

And this seems to be a common thing in my experience and others I've talked to. The better, more driven, motivated, or androgenic we tend to feel, the more hair loss seems to progress or accelerate. Hair loss almost seems to be a trade between slowing the engine down and keeping your hair or improving performance and increasing hair loss. Which if hair loss is mostly driven by stress, wouldn't make a lot of sense to me, as the better my metabolism and androgens get, the better I tolerate stress and the more stable my mood.



Purple Panda Labs

The other problem with taking histidine is it chelates important metals like copper and zinc. This could be why it increases thinning besides the fact that if histamine is too high, inflammation can mess with hair growth and other bodily processes.