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I though natural body building meant doing it without supplementing hormones. I misunderstood?Renky said:I just hit 40 and am into natural bodybuilding. My sister inlaw is a Doctor and she freaked out when she heard I was taking DHEA. I was only taking about 10mg a day. After she freaked out, I stopped, but am now wondering if I should go against her advice?
haidut said:post 87639 Once again, I am amazed at how well Ray's recommendations are backed by science. He has said that taking DHEA is fine and can restore proper youthful hormone balance. However, he cautioned that DHEA should only be taken in doses of no more than 10mg at once and preferably no more than 15mg daily.
Virtually all studies with DHEA used doses 50mg+ daily and the results for men were quite disappointing in terms of hormonal profile as in men DHEA raises estrogen quite a bit while in women it raised mostly DHT. Basically, the opposite effect of what most clinicians try to achieve. These results have convinced the scientific community that DHEA is a non-starter as an HRT for older people.
However, I have posted studies showing DHEA in doses of <15mg daily is quite androgenic and virtually indistinguishable from DHT in terms of anabolic effects.
So, what is the catch? This studies shows the that the estrogenic effects of DHEA start manifesting only at concentrations of 500nM or higher. A single dose of 15mg of DHEA results in concentrations slightly higher than 500nM, so Ray's recommendations at 10mg being the cutoff for non-estrogenic effects seem spot on.
So, DHEA does seem to have a lot of potential if you know how to use it and follow Ray's advice that "more is not better" when it comes to hormone supplementation. Also, doses of 5mg taken 2-3 times a day happen to mimic very closely the physiological levels and hormone metabolism of 20-year old men and women. So, once again, Ray's recommendations make perfect sense even in that context.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364836/
"...Finally, we examined whether the precursor hormone DHEA is taken up into the myotubes in culture and further processed to T or E2. After 5 days of differentiation, myotubes were exposed to 100 nm DHEA, 500 nm DHEA or mock for 6, 24 and 72 h. Myotubes readily took up DHEA into the cells as shown by the increase in the cellular concentration of DHEA (Fig.(Fig.5A).5A). There were significant group differences at all time points (ANOVA P = 0.001, 0.003 and 0.002, respectively). Cellular DHEA concentration was significantly upregulated already at 6 h in 500 nm DHEA-exposed myotubes when compared to mock (P = 0.002) and continued to be elevated at 24 h (P = 0.004) and at 72 h (P = 0.004), while 100 nm DHEA was not sufficient to increase cellular concentration of DHEA at any time point. Interestingly, the cellular concentrations of T and E2 also increased in response to the DHEA treatment, indicating that their synthesis from DHEA was induced. However, the differences in E2 concentration did not reach statistical significance (Fig.(Fig.5B).5B). Cellular T concentration was significantly different at 6- and 24-h time points, but not at 72 h (ANOVA P = 0.007, 0.027 and 0.144, respectively; Fig.Fig.5C).5C). In addition, the gene expression of aromatase was statistically significantly upregulated after 72-h exposure to 500 nm DHEA (P = 0.13), while no significant differences in the gene expression of ESR1,ESR2,GPER, or AR were observed (Fig(Fig5D5D–H)."
sladerunner69 said:post 118015haidut said:post 87639 Once again, I am amazed at how well Ray's recommendations are backed by science. He has said that taking DHEA is fine and can restore proper youthful hormone balance. However, he cautioned that DHEA should only be taken in doses of no more than 10mg at once and preferably no more than 15mg daily.
Virtually all studies with DHEA used doses 50mg+ daily and the results for men were quite disappointing in terms of hormonal profile as in men DHEA raises estrogen quite a bit while in women it raised mostly DHT. Basically, the opposite effect of what most clinicians try to achieve. These results have convinced the scientific community that DHEA is a non-starter as an HRT for older people.
However, I have posted studies showing DHEA in doses of <15mg daily is quite androgenic and virtually indistinguishable from DHT in terms of anabolic effects.
So, what is the catch? This studies shows the that the estrogenic effects of DHEA start manifesting only at concentrations of 500nM or higher. A single dose of 15mg of DHEA results in concentrations slightly higher than 500nM, so Ray's recommendations at 10mg being the cutoff for non-estrogenic effects seem spot on.
So, DHEA does seem to have a lot of potential if you know how to use it and follow Ray's advice that "more is not better" when it comes to hormone supplementation. Also, doses of 5mg taken 2-3 times a day happen to mimic very closely the physiological levels and hormone metabolism of 20-year old men and women. So, once again, Ray's recommendations make perfect sense even in that context.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364836/
"...Finally, we examined whether the precursor hormone DHEA is taken up into the myotubes in culture and further processed to T or E2. After 5 days of differentiation, myotubes were exposed to 100 nm DHEA, 500 nm DHEA or mock for 6, 24 and 72 h. Myotubes readily took up DHEA into the cells as shown by the increase in the cellular concentration of DHEA (Fig.(Fig.5A).5A). There were significant group differences at all time points (ANOVA P = 0.001, 0.003 and 0.002, respectively). Cellular DHEA concentration was significantly upregulated already at 6 h in 500 nm DHEA-exposed myotubes when compared to mock (P = 0.002) and continued to be elevated at 24 h (P = 0.004) and at 72 h (P = 0.004), while 100 nm DHEA was not sufficient to increase cellular concentration of DHEA at any time point. Interestingly, the cellular concentrations of T and E2 also increased in response to the DHEA treatment, indicating that their synthesis from DHEA was induced. However, the differences in E2 concentration did not reach statistical significance (Fig.(Fig.5B).5B). Cellular T concentration was significantly different at 6- and 24-h time points, but not at 72 h (ANOVA P = 0.007, 0.027 and 0.144, respectively; Fig.Fig.5C).5C). In addition, the gene expression of aromatase was statistically significantly upregulated after 72-h exposure to 500 nm DHEA (P = 0.13), while no significant differences in the gene expression of ESR1,ESR2,GPER, or AR were observed (Fig(Fig5D5D–H)."
Should ther ebe any need to cycle DHEA, as in take breaks from it? Seems like the androgenic effects would wear off after sometime. Also, would a 205lb male like me be able to handle a few more mg of DHEA topically? I was thinking I should do 10mg x2 a day. I am a post-finasteride-syndrome guy so I have low andro especially low DHT. I need all the DHT I can possibly muster. Thanks.
@haidut what was the mg/kg for the 18mg topical dose? I'm 135kg, at last weigh but I may have lost a little. Ive been doing 15, I might double that spread out.
BioMatrix DHEA Drops are made with safe ingredients and the dose per drop is small.
Biotics Research have also 2 DHEA products ( dosage of 2mg or 5mg ) which are safe but not sublingual.
What are people’s thoughts on taking higher dose DHEA and a AI to reduce conversion to estrone?
Awesome! If you are willing to experiment try adding 30mg - 60mg zinc daily to the DHEA regimen for added effect. Take zinc on empty stomach as absorption is inhibited by food.
Just to clarify...
I do not compete... I consider myself natural, because I am not on the AAS type gear. I did not consider DHEA to be anything that radical until my sister inlaw (a Doctor), freaked out. I was only ever taking 5mg to 10mg per day. My blood results showed that my testosterone level was way down (a long way below the recommended levels), even though I lift weights and was taking DHEA. Not sure what is going on there. I am not sure what to do...
When I get my next blood work done and my Testosterone has not gone up to even average, then I feel the Doc will agree that I am a candidate for androgel or something like that. Personally... I would prefer to keep it natural though.
do you still recommend this dosage of zinc? in the email repository thread Ray mentioned that zinc if supplemented should be limited to 10mg or less. I developed copper and iron deficiency symtpoms just from regularly supplementing 20mg zinc a day (with another 15mg or so from diet-ground beef/lamb). Although I didn't eat liver or oysters so my dietary copper and iron intake would have been lower than someone regularly eating liver and oysters
I never recommended this dose zinc as a daily regimen. It was suggested simply as an experiment (as the comment itself says) to see if it would inhibit aromatase and increase DHEA conversion into DHT.
Estrone is a really weak estrogen, AIs are trash anyway.
Don’t conflate XENOestrogens with E1/E2