What is Nausea?

[Healthseeker]

I want to know what is nausea. How do we perceive nausea. Is like feeling hunger which is caused by a hormone. Or is it like feeling pain or temperature. I wonder what it does to your body when you become nauseous. And if there could be medicinal benefit from it.

 

[sunny]

It is a symptom of high serotonin.
In my experience, nausea is always relieved by vomiting whatever the body needs to expel.

 

[Healthseeker]

I thought it had something to do with the vagus nerve because the vagus nerve is such big thing. And nausea is one of those things that seem so strong to me, like, I a person can fight though pain with adrenalin or whatever, but getting nauseous is a whole different nature of activity that we have to be sensing through our nerves. And I was wondering if there was a vagus nerve stimulating hormone.

 

[xeliex]

Nausea is just too damn awful. I don't think it's fully understood yet it's theorized. In anatomy and physiology, we were told that it's the GI tract not moving in the right direction. Hormones and neurotransmitters are part of it along with vagal theories. I don't think it's fully understood yet by medicine.

 

[GTW]

Often stimulated by bitter receptors. Below a threshold bitter stimuli are hormetic, ie healthy.

 

[BearWithMe]

The medicinal benefit might be association of the thing that caused the nausea with trauma. It teach us never to eat that thing again (hello alcoholics). Maybe it have to be so strong to burn it deep into our memory, and possibly into the memory of our peers. Strong aversion to toxic plants, animals and poisons in general greatly increase the chances of survival.

I'd guess there is more than one pathway involved. Possibly multiple nerves + multiple hormones + something non-physical, purely in consciousness.

 

[Nick]

The root cause of nausea is the presence of toxins in the stomach, usually bile getting into the stomach. The elevated serotonin is secondary, the body elevates serotonin to speed up gut motility to get the toxins out.

 

[BearWithMe]

The root cause of nausea is the presence of toxins in the stomach, usually bile getting into the stomach. The elevated serotonin is secondary, the body elevates serotonin to speed up gut motility to get the toxins out.

How do you explain motion sickness? How do you explain people vomiting from seeing a disgusting picture or video?

 

[Nick]

How do you explain motion sickness? How do you explain people vomiting from seeing a disgusting picture or video?

Those stimuli are acting as triggers for the excretion of bile from the liver or gallbladder and/or interfering with the proper function of the intestine and pyloric sphincter, causing the excreted bile to go backwards into the stomach.

 

[BearWithMe]

Those stimuli are acting as triggers for the excretion of bile from the liver or gallbladder and/or interfering with the proper function of the intestine and pyloric sphincter, causing the excreted bile to go backwards into the stomach.

Bile in the stomach is quite rare finding during upper GI endoscopy, yet majority of people do feel nausea in the moment. I'm the opposite, I had bile in my stomach during upper GI endoscopy, yet I felt no nausea in the moment (capsule endoscopy). There are people, who have extremely low bile output, and they definitely can feel very strong nausea.

 

[Nick]

Bile in the stomach is quite rare finding during upper GI endoscopy, yet majority of people do feel nausea in the moment. I'm the opposite, I had bile in my stomach during upper GI endoscopy, yet I felt no nausea in the moment (capsule endoscopy). There are people, who have extremely low bile output, and they definitely can feel very strong nausea.

Whether or not the bile causes nausea may depend on the composition of the bile, as in the ratios of the different bile acids and the types of toxins and hormone derivatives bound to the bile. People with low bile output (cholestasis) are likely to have a more toxic bile composition that people with good bile excretion so it may not take very much bile to trigger nausea. Bile going into the stomach can also be considered a form of extrahepatic cholestasis and so may be grouped in with low bile output (ie. low output that goes in the correct direction).
Perhaps endoscopy can artificially trigger the same irritant reflux in the stomach as is created by endogenous toxins irritating the stomach.

 

[BearWithMe]

Whether or not the bile causes nausea may depend on the composition of the bile, as in the ratios of the different bile acids and the types of toxins and hormone derivatives bound to the bile. People with low bile output (cholestasis) are likely to have a more toxic bile composition that people with good bile excretion so it may not take very much bile to trigger nausea. Bile going into the stomach can also be considered a form of extrahepatic cholestasis and so may be grouped in with low bile output (ie. low output that goes in the correct direction).
Perhaps endoscopy can artificially trigger the same irritant reflux in the stomach as is created by endogenous toxins irritating the stomach.

If specific toxins or irritants in bile can cause nausea, why can't exogenous toxins or irritants also cause nausea, directly, by the same mechanism, without involvement of bile?

 

[Peater]

I read that morning sickness (Which obviously doesn't involve any external toxins) is caused by B6 deficiency.

 

[Nick]

If specific toxins or irritants in bile can cause nausea, why can't exogenous toxins or irritants also cause nausea, directly, by the same mechanism, without involvement of bile?

I would think that they probably can, I just suspect that bile is the cause for most people most of the time. I could be wrong, my opinion is based on both material evidence and a strong hunch, so it is far from a rigid belief. I first heard the idea from Garrett Smith and it has so far lined up with everything I have observed in life as well as every line of questioning I have subjected the hypothesis to, at least as far as I can tell from the existing scientific literature (as read with a wary and critical viewpoint).

I read that morning sickness (Which obviously doesn't involve any external toxins) is caused by B6 deficiency.

Morning sickness is caused by the toxins previously stored in the liver and excreted in the bile, getting into the stomach. For more information you can look up cholestasis of pregnancy, which is considered normal nowadays because most people have so much stored toxicity. I don't doubt that B6 deficiency can play a role in this pathology.

Progesterone tells the body to maximize toxin storage in the liver because active detoxification via bile excretion into the intestines puts too many toxins into active circulation and is too risky for the developing fetus. If someone already has too much toxicity prior to pregnancy, this ends up causing cholestasis where the stored toxicity is too toxic for the bile ducts, which become leaky and bile can end up leaking bile both intrahepatically and extrahepatically.

 

[charlie]

From my observations bile is the cause of nausea.

 

[Peater]

Progesterone tells the body to maximize toxin storage in the liver because active detoxification via bile excretion into the intestines puts too many toxins into active circulation and is too risky for the developing fetus.

This is actually a very important point if true - it sounds true to me. Because the progesterone threads have comments from people saying it seemed to affect their gall bladder, but they could not work out why. Another case where less might be more, as with salt.

Have a search, you'll see the threads I mean. I found them because I suffered with skin itching which I probably don't need to tell you is a bile salts thing.

I don't know if topical administration would counter-act this.

 

[Nick]

This is actually a very important point if true - it sounds true to me. Because the progesterone threads have comments from people saying it seemed to affect their gall bladder, but they could not work out why. Another case where less might be more, as with salt.

Have a search, you'll see the threads I mean. I found them because I suffered with skin itching which I probably don't need to tell you is a bile salts thing.

I don't know if topical administration would counter-act this.

There is a reason for the low progesterone part of the female hormone cycle--this way 50% of the time the liver is focused on detoxifying and excreting bile while progesterone is low, and 50% of the time (once the egg is released) the liver focuses on keeping toxicity locked down and not excreted in case the egg gets fertilized.

Even if women only supplement progesterone in the luteal phase (when it is physiologically appropriate) there could be the potential that if one takes too much, excess progesterone would get stored in the fat and then released at inappropriate times whenever the fat is used for energy. With topical supplementation I wonder if there could be an even greater risk of this problematic fat storage and subsequent time delayed release.

For men and women, I think part of the therapeutic benefit of progesterone comes from shutting down detoxification and bile excretion for a bit. While this can definitely help symptoms and probably sometimes break disease cycles, if the progesterone is taken for too long or not cycled, there comes a point at which the toxicity will build up too much and it will get out of the liver one way or another (cholestasis). So I'm not sure it's always a good strategy in the long run, especially for men, who are meant to detoxify and excrete bile in a less cyclical manner than women.

Edit: I looked at some of those threads. I too have had skin itching, in my case over the liver and gallbladder area from liver issues. I have mostly fixed the problem so that it no longer itches, but when it was happening, taking supplemental progesterone always made it worse within 10-20 minutes.

 

[BearWithMe]

I would think that they probably can, I just suspect that bile is the cause for most people most of the time. I could be wrong, my opinion is based on both material evidence and a strong hunch, so it is far from a rigid belief. I first heard the idea from Garrett Smith and it has so far lined up with everything I have observed in life as well as every line of questioning I have subjected the hypothesis to, at least as far as I can tell from the existing scientific literature (as read with a wary and critical viewpoint).

Morning sickness is caused by the toxins previously stored in the liver and excreted in the bile, getting into the stomach. For more information you can look up cholestasis of pregnancy, which is considered normal nowadays because most people have so much stored toxicity. I don't doubt that B6 deficiency can play a role in this pathology.

Progesterone tells the body to maximize toxin storage in the liver because active detoxification via bile excretion into the intestines puts too many toxins into active circulation and is too risky for the developing fetus. If someone already has too much toxicity prior to pregnancy, this ends up causing cholestasis where the stored toxicity is too toxic for the bile ducts, which become leaky and bile can end up leaking bile both intrahepatically and extrahepatically.

Thank you. Can we use this knowledge to stop nausea in cases when there was no actual toxin ingested and there is no need to purge?

 

[Nick]

Thank you. Can we use this knowledge to stop nausea in cases when there was no actual toxin ingested and there is no need to purge?

I haven't had many chances to experiment with this personally but I wonder if activated charcoal slurry (capsules might not dissolve before leaving the stomach) or well hydrated soluble fiber like oatmeal or psyllium husk fiber would help quickly by binding up the bile in the stomach. If the nausea is too bad though I would think sometimes ingesting anything at all might trigger vomiting.

 

[Peater]

There is a reason for the low progesterone part of the female hormone cycle--this way 50% of the time the liver is focused on detoxifying and excreting bile while progesterone is low, and 50% of the time (once the egg is released) the liver focuses on keeping toxicity locked down and not excreted in case the egg gets fertilized.

Even if women only supplement progesterone in the luteal phase (when it is physiologically appropriate) there could be the potential that if one takes too much, excess progesterone would get stored in the fat and then released at inappropriate times whenever the fat is used for energy. With topical supplementation I wonder if there could be an even greater risk of this problematic fat storage and subsequent time delayed release.

For men and women, I think part of the therapeutic benefit of progesterone comes from shutting down detoxification and bile excretion for a bit. While this can definitely help symptoms and probably sometimes break disease cycles, if the progesterone is taken for too long or not cycled, there comes a point at which the toxicity will build up too much and it will get out of the liver one way or another (cholestasis). So I'm not sure it's always a good strategy in the long run, especially for men, who are meant to detoxify and excrete bile in a less cyclical manner than women.

Edit: I looked at some of those threads. I too have had skin itching, in my case over the liver and gallbladder area from liver issues. I have mostly fixed the problem so that it no longer itches, but when it was happening, taking supplemental progesterone always made it worse within 10-20 minutes.

All that makes sense and is very well explained, thank you. What are your thoughts on it pushing estrogen out of cells? With the grated carrot ultimately carrying it out, in theory.