Tyromax bovine T3:T4 ratio?

[apr]

In light that Tyromax is out of stock I am forced to switch to either another NDT or a synthetic combo. From my understanding, Tyromax has a T4:T3 ratio like all porcine NDT of approximately 4:1. However, Tyromax is from bovine source. If so, wouldn’t the ratio be closer to 10:1 as in all other bovine glandulars?

 

[milk_lover]

It's in stock now TyroMax

 

[apr]

It's in stock now TyroMax

It's in stock now TyroMax

Thank you I saw that. However due to the shortages of late, I prefer to make a change. And I need the answer to this question in order to make the conversion with another medication properly.

My question is how can Tyromax be 4:1 ratio if is bovine?

 

[MayaPapaya]

In light that Tyromax is out of stock I am forced to switch to either another NDT or a synthetic combo. From my understanding, Tyromax has a T4:T3 ratio like all porcine NDT of approximately 4:1. However, Tyromax is from bovine source. If so, wouldn’t the ratio be closer to 10:1 as in all other bovine glandulars?

I contacted Forefront about the ratio of their Bovine Thyroid desiccated, and they answered that it's impossible to know because it's bovine, not porcine.

 

[apr]

I contacted Forefront about the ratio of their Bovine Thyroid desiccated, and they answered that it's impossible to know because it's bovine, not porcine.

Thanks! I would assume it would be the same case with Tyromax yet I see some posts referring to 4:1 ratio in Tyromax. I just don't understand how it's possible if its of bovine origin.

 

[apr]

@haidut I know you cannot comment on Tyromax specifically, I'm wondering if you can comment on how any generic bovine extract could achieve a ratio of 4:1? Or it is same to assume that most bovine extracts have a ratio closer to 10:1?

 

[MayaPapaya]

Thanks! I would assume it would be the same case with Tyromax yet I see some posts referring to 4:1 ratio in Tyromax. I just don't understand how it's possible if its of bovine origin.

I do not have any idea either, but still take Thyroid from Forefront, 65mg x4/day.

 

[apr]

I do not have any idea either, but still take Thyroid from Forefront, 65mg x4/day.

thank you!

 

[apr]

thank you!

Bump!

 

[youngsinatra]

In light that Tyromax is out of stock I am forced to switch to either another NDT or a synthetic combo. From my understanding, Tyromax has a T4:T3 ratio like all porcine NDT of approximately 4:1. However, Tyromax is from bovine source. If so, wouldn’t the ratio be closer to 10:1 as in all other bovine glandulars?

Good question!
Bovine sources are typically lower in T3 and higher in T4 in comparison to porcine sources.

I once saw a quality analysis sheet of a bovine thyroid glandular product that had a 8:1 ratio of T4:T3.

I have read that @Jennifer needs a much lower dosage of synthetic thyroid (TyroMix) in comparison to NDT. (TyroMax)

I think this is due to lower levels of T3 in bovine NDT.

 

[apr]

Good question!
Bovine sources are typically lower in T3 and higher in T4 in comparison to porcine sources.

I once saw a quality analysis sheet of a bovine thyroid glandular product that had a 8:1 ratio of T4:T3.

I have read that @Jennifer needs a much lower dosage of synthetic thyroid (TyroMix) in comparison to NDT. (TyroMax)

I think this is due to lower levels of T3 in bovine NDT.

Thank you! Yes, exactly. This is why I'm wondering how the 4:1 ratio in Tyromax is achieved with a bovine source? I would like to know because as I switch if it is in fact closer to 8:1, I could potentially unknowingly switch to a t3 dosage that is too high for me and would like to avoid that.

@haidut can you comment on wether its possible for a bovine glandular to have a 4:1 ratio?

 

[Jennifer]

Good question!
Bovine sources are typically lower in T3 and higher in T4 in comparison to porcine sources.

I once saw a quality analysis sheet of a bovine thyroid glandular product that had a 8:1 ratio of T4:T3.

I have read that @Jennifer needs a much lower dosage of synthetic thyroid (TyroMix) in comparison to NDT. (TyroMax)

I think this is due to lower levels of T3 in bovine NDT.

Yes, I needed half the dose when I switched from TyroMax to TyroMix 4 months ago and I’ve since had to further reduce my dose. Was the bovine glandular you saw the quality analysis sheet on an over-the-counter glandular or a standardized (USP grade) one?

@apr, Ray said this in an email exchange:

“[Ratio of T4 to T3, which is sometimes suggested to be wrong in NDT] Pigs' and cows' thyroids are very similar to people's, with a ratio usually between 3:1 and 4:1. The blood serum of hypothyroid people can have a ratio of 50:1 or 100:1, when the liver is failing to convert thyroxin. Maybe the authors of the book are physicians, educated by pharmaceutical advertisements.”

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

 

[apr]

Yes, I needed half the dose when I switched from TyroMax to TyroMix 4 months ago and I’ve since had to further reduce my dose. Was the bovine glandular you saw the quality analysis sheet on an over-the-counter glandular or a standardized (USP grade) one?

@apr, Ray said this in an email exchange:

“[Ratio of T4 to T3, which is sometimes suggested to be wrong in NDT] Pigs' and cows' thyroids are very similar to people's, with a ratio usually between 3:1 and 4:1. The blood serum of hypothyroid people can have a ratio of 50:1 or 100:1, when the liver is failing to convert thyroxin. Maybe the authors of the book are physicians, educated by pharmaceutical advertisements.”

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

Thanks for your input Jennifer!

I too like @youngsinatra have seen mentioned in other thyroid forums that over the counter glandular (Thyrovanz for example), the ratio is usually believed to be between 8-10:1.

If that is indeed the case I was just wondering how could a bovine source achieve a 4:1 ratio.

 

[youngsinatra]

Yes, I needed half the dose when I switched from TyroMax to TyroMix 4 months ago and I’ve since had to further reduce my dose. Was the bovine glandular you saw the quality analysis sheet on an over-the-counter glandular or a standardized (USP grade) one?

@apr, Ray said this in an email exchange:

“[Ratio of T4 to T3, which is sometimes suggested to be wrong in NDT] Pigs' and cows' thyroids are very similar to people's, with a ratio usually between 3:1 and 4:1. The blood serum of hypothyroid people can have a ratio of 50:1 or 100:1, when the liver is failing to convert thyroxin. Maybe the authors of the book are physicians, educated by pharmaceutical advertisements.”

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

Yes it was an OTC bovine thyroid glandular by the brand „Allergy Research Group“.

 

[Jennifer]

Thanks for your input Jennifer!

I too like @youngsinatra have seen mentioned in other thyroid forums that over the counter glandular (Thyrovanz for example), the ratio is usually believed to be between 8-10:1.

If that is indeed the case I was just wondering how could a bovine source achieve a 4:1 ratio.

You’re welcome. :) Over-the-counter thyroid glandulars haven’t gone through the process of standardization so you don’t know what you’re getting for hormones from batch to batch. This is why Ray recommended synthetic over natural thyroid—the former’s potency is more consistent, even when compared to standardized (USP) thyroid extract. There have been so many recalls on prescription NDTs from Acella (NP Thyroid) and RCL Labs (Nature-Throid and WP Thyroid) due to sub and suprapotency.

 

[apr]

thank you @Jennifer!

So just to clarify:
glandular: not standardized, varies from batch to batch
standardized USP extract: same as NDT (Armour, etc), standarized, should be consistent but not as consistent as synthetic

I would assume Tyromax enters in the standardized USP extract category?

So when you have a standardized thyroid extract, is the t3 and t4 content manipulated to achieve the desired ratio?

 

[Jennifer]

You’re welcome, @apr. :)

So just to clarify:
glandular: not standardized, varies from batch to batch
standardized USP extract: same as NDT (Armour, etc), standarized, should be consistent but not as consistent as synthetic

Correct.

I would assume Tyromax enters in the standardized USP extract category?

Correct.

So when you have a standardized thyroid extract, is the t3 and t4 content manipulated to achieve the desired ratio?

That’s my understanding, but I haven’t been able to find info on exactly how they do it, just a history of desiccated thyroid extract. The earliest form was bovine, until Armour, a meat company at the time, started marketing its own desiccated thyroid from pigs. They eventually sold it to Revlon who removed the calcitonin to sell as a separate product so it seems to me that they can isolate the other hormones to achieve a standardized formula of roughly 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3 per 1 grain. I’m almost certain Ray mentioned that the original standardization process that Armour developed made for a consistent product, but subsequent companies changed it and as a result, the hormones in NDT are no longer as consistent.

 

[apr]

You’re welcome, @apr. :)



Correct.



Correct.



That’s my understanding, but I haven’t been able to find info on exactly how they do it, just a history of desiccated thyroid extract. The earliest form was bovine, until Armour, a meat company at the time, started marketing its own desiccated thyroid from pigs. They eventually sold it to Revlon who removed the calcitonin to sell as a separate product so it seems to me that they can isolate the other hormones to achieve a standardized formula of roughly 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3 per 1 grain. I’m almost certain Ray mentioned that the original standardization process that Armour developed made for a consistent product, but subsequent companies changed it and as a result, the hormones in NDT are no longer as consistent.

Thanks for clearing that up for me @Jennifer . This answers my question. I wasn't aware that during the standardization process they could manipulate the ratio! Thanks!

 

[Jennifer]

My pleasure, @apr. :)

 

[FitnessMike]

I do not have any idea either, but still take Thyroid from Forefront, 65mg x4/day.

did you ever ask them how much of the hormones is in their 65mg? they must have tested