Troubleshooting Manual, When "RP Diet" Doesn't Seem To Work As Expected?

Atalanta

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Philosophy time :pompous:

IMO, there are 2 core tenets to this thing we call the "Peat Diet":

(1) Avoid stressful foods -- with PUFA being the most commonly consumed and generic stressor.
(2) Increase metabolic fuel -- in general, this will revolve around glucose, galactose, and fructose intake

----

Number (1) is usually more important than (2), and definitely more important if one is coming from an energetically compromised state.

"Stressful foods" refer to anything at all that you do not tolerate at all, be it gluten, lectins (eg: from potatoes), casein (dairy, and especially A1 casein), etc ....

PUFA is unique in that they are a class of compounds that provide a universal "slow down mechanism" at all levels of the body -- everything from low level mitochondrial dynamics, where chronic PUFA incorporation into mitochondrial membranes reduce ECT flow, and all the way up to higher-level .

PUFA are necessary for function, but dietary PUFA almost always exceeds requirements. Avoiding dietary PUFA as best as possible then becomes key.

Again, removal of stressful food items takes precedence over increases in metabolic fuel.

In the real world, my friend PaleoOsteo finds it much more effective to tell generally-nutritionally-clueless clients to do a "ketogenic diet", which basically means cutting out all the common items that lead to stress. It tends to be much easier (psychologically speaking) for people to cut PUFA-rich processed foods when asked to "go ketogenic". A lot of the PUFA-rich foods that most people eat tend to be viewed as "carb sources" -- chips, donuts, pastries, etc ...

Some care needs to be given to "fat sources" that are high PUFA -- example: peanut butter, and sometimes people use margarine. But in general, starting with a low carb approach, and then adding carbohydrate sources in, seems to be the easiest way for the nutritionally-illiterate to get started with this approach.

This usually leads to weight loss and general feelings of wellness. Again, the main factor here is that they are so inflammed to begin with, and are usually overweight and therefore releasing a lot of FFA to begin with. Reduction in further dietary stress is the biggest factor in this state.

We do this until some excess fat is lost, and the person is feeling a little better (this is best judged by a good health practitioner). This can take anywhere from a few weeks, to 6 months.

Then we start adding carbs. It can be as easily and moderate as saying, "OK, now you can have your cup of Fruit Juice in the morning and another piece of fruit during the day". Usually this also comes with, "we'll get you back on your steak and potatoes in a couple of weeks when things get better again"

Keeping things easy becomes important in this scenario. For example, a list of "allowed fat sources" needs to be kept as short as possible, and ideally as specific as possible. Something like:

- Butter
- Coconut oil
- Beef
- Lamb
- only lean fish

and nothing else, is much easier than saying, "avoid PUFA". Olive oil may be a not-ideal but affordable concession at this point.

This is the approach of "High fat first, then add carbs".

----

In the opposite case, like myself, who already had knowledge of all the biochemistry at hand, and who was 24 years old, a more aggressive template may be taken. In my case, it was a calorie-controlled (to whatever I knew was my maintenance caloric intake), and pretty high carb diet (< 10% fat).

IMO, this opposite approach is best done with fat intake at 10% or lower, and without excess calories to begin with. The low fat intake is to bias the Randle effect to carbohydrate metabolism. The controlled calories is to ease the metabolic adaptation to the new diet (processing a lot of carbohydrate still requires some switch over in enzyme and hormone levels, which can take anywhere from a few days, to weeks).

After a comfort level has been reached, then we decide if we want to add more carbs and/or fat.

This is the approach of "High carb first, then add fat"

----

As for "Metabolic Supplements", these are aimed towards point (2). I've made my prior opinion that "Good' supplements are "training wheels for the metabolism" -- Is There Any Reason For Me To Take Aspirin?

IMO, if the person is willing to try some of these, then they can and should be used as soon as possible. Test and identify which supplements work the best, and then stick to those.

You do not want to throw multiple supplements with possible interfering side effects at a person who is just starting out trying to regain their health. A good practitioner can guess which supplements work best for a client (based on lab tests, symptom analysis, or otherwise), though some supplements like Pregnenolone and/or Progesterone are almost always helpful, and never harmful. The same goes for low does Aspirin (higher doses, above say 300-400mg a day, require experimentation)

Sidenote: other supplements like K2 MK4, Vit E, can potentially lead to side effects depending on the person's condition. These require specific experimentation. Even Niacinamide may not be needed or properly handled in the beginning (perhaps due to mucked up enzyme kinematics regarding the machinery needed to transport niacinamide into mitochondria where it becomes useful)​

.....

What are the possible side effects of K2 MK4 and vitamins E?
 

tyw

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What are the possible side effects of K2 MK4 and vitamins E?

Search these forums for Vitamin E side effects. Some people don't do well with it. Some do better when K2 is added with Vitamin E.

"Vitamin E" is also not a uniform formulation. Various sources need to be experimented with (I'm still waiting for my order of Haidut's Vit E ;) )

K2 MK4 can be powerful (specifically MK4), usually side effects are not present. I have had however, people mention to me the random side effects they experienced -- everything from excessive sweating at night and therefore not being able to sleep properly, to one person I won't mention who had latent parasite issues which would flare every time they took K2 (tried numerous sources, all had the same effect).

....
 

whodathunkit

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My first suggestion for noobs, as a relative noob myself who is experiencing good results with Peat after not experiencing good results one time before:

Eat very low fat for a while, especially if you're coming off a lot of processed food and PUFA and/or a low-carb eating style. Very low fat can help to greatly reduce the burden on the liver, and good liver function helps EVERYTHING. Very low fat is the best thing I've EVER done to improve my liver function. I can tolerate things like progesterone now that used to give me a fit before, and the only explanation is improved liver function.

By very low fat I mean almost no fat at all. Skim milk, skim cottage cheese, gelatin, seafood cooked without fat, etc. No fatty cheses, no meat, no whole milk, etc. Fruits and fruit juices and veggies to taste, all without any added fat.

I don't advocate very low fat as a permanent thing. But as someone who had impaired liver function and did not have good results with Peat style the first time around, I suspect that impaired liver function is probably a major roadblock when people have problems and/or gain weight when starting Peat. Nobody has to eat very low fat forever. Gods know I surely don't intend to. But as an intervention for helping to improve health and to tolerate the increased carb/sugar consumption that Peat calls for, there's probably not a better noob strategy than very low fat.
 
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scarlettsmum

scarlettsmum

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Thank you everyone for your great contributions as usual! Lots of sensible advice. Perhaps we could agree that younger people (males) might do better on low fat and people over 30 and perhaps females to take the slow route not fearing SF. Going back to RP words, it all depends on context. :)
 

Atalanta

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Messages
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Search these forums for Vitamin E side effects. Some people don't do well with it. Some do better when K2 is added with Vitamin E.

"Vitamin E" is also not a uniform formulation. Various sources need to be experimented with (I'm still waiting for my order of Haidut's Vit E ;) )

K2 MK4 can be powerful (specifically MK4), usually side effects are not present. I have had however, people mention to me the random side effects they experienced -- everything from excessive sweating at night and therefore not being able to sleep properly, to one person I won't mention who had latent parasite issues which would flare every time they took K2 (tried numerous sources, all had the same effect).

....

I wanted to know about your personal experiences/side effects with Vitamin E and vitamin K, if you had any.
 

whodathunkit

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777
Some may do well on very low fat, but others don't. This was discussed before, for example here.
Point taken. That looks like a good thread, thanks for pointing it out. I admit my perspective may be skewed because I had already dumped a lot of my PUFA load before trying very low fat.

However, I think at least one member (@thebigpeatowski) had good results with VLF and she was carrying a pretty big PUFA load. Maybe she'll chime in since I tagged her.

Very low fat might be worth trying for some to see if they could tolerate it, though. It is a great strategy, but I freely admit I don't know how it would have worked for me in the beginning, when I was at my worst. Apart from any sides from PUFA detox, I was unable to tolerate a very low fat eating because I LUV FAT. :) If I could live off of full-fat cream and full-fat cheese, I would probably be doing it. "Permission" to eat these things in moderation and still benefit healthwise is one thing that attracted me to Peat in the first place. ;)
 
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scarlettsmum

scarlettsmum

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Point taken. That looks like a good thread, thanks for pointing it out. I admit my perspective may be skewed because I had already dumped a lot of my PUFA load before trying very low fat.

However, I think at least one member (@thebigpeatowski) had good results with VLF and she was carrying a pretty big PUFA load. Maybe she'll chime in since I tagged her.

Very low fat might be worth trying for some to see if they could tolerate it, though. It is a great strategy, but I freely admit I don't know how it would have worked for me in the beginning, when I was at my worst. Apart from any sides from PUFA detox, I was unable to tolerate a very low fat eating because I LUV FAT. :) If I could live off of full-fat cream and full-fat cheese, I would probably be doing it. "Permission" to eat these things in moderation and still benefit healthwise is one thing that attracted me to Peat in the first place. ;)

Yep, same here. I love fat too much to give it up. I can easily drink a whole carton of double cream. Sometimes I wonder if my body is telling me something by craving all these rich diary products. Then again if I gave in I would quickly put on loads of weight. I tried eating ice cream for lunch, but it would only satisfy me momentarily and I quickly craved more food like I ate nothing for lunch. Very frustrating, because then you basically have two lunches and extra calories and fat. If however I just had some eggs and bread I'd be satisfied without having to have additional ice cream on top. I also think it is different for females, I think we need more fat than males.
I'm not really sure if it is really possible to detox liver of pufa just by eating saturated fat and minimises pufa. I came from wapf diet, so lard and clo, and all that I have changed since discovering RP year and a half ago was to stop these two things,as well as eating way less muscle meats and more stock, liver. Whilst wapfing I also ate ample amounts of sf, and I always thought my diet was more in favour of sf, so I'm puzzled by the elevated liver enzyme and the sluggish liver. I remember that I developed coffee intolerance after a major life stress in my early 20's and was never able to fix it since. Perhaps 2,5 years to go to clear pufa out completely. I was already avoiding veg. oils and was never exposed to them growing up except for lard from our own pig, which is traditional in my country. I also added quality juices and low fat milk/cheese, but not much has changed really in terms of my liver health. Alcohol/coffee tolerance is as bad as ever.
 

whodathunkit

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@scarlettsmum: what's "wapf"? I just can't figure that one out.

Yep, same here. I love fat too much to give it up. I can easily drink a whole carton of double cream. Sometimes I wonder if my body is telling me something by craving all these rich diary products.
Well, here's the thing. I thought that, too. That I loved fat too much to give it up. Turns out, I don't. Once I got beyond the craving, I seemed to become a take it or leave it kinda girl. I actually had one (1!) piece of bacon today, and that's all I wanted. Ate it, enjoyed it, and immediately forgot about lusting after more. I can count on my right thumb the number of times *that* has ever happened in my life. ;) Because, mmmmmm, bacon. :lol:

That is not to contradict what I said above about living on heavy cream and fatty cheese if I could...I would. And bacon! Don't forget that! :lol: But I can't live on that. High fat/high protein/lo carb helped ruin my health. And now that I've moved beyond the psychological need for fat with almost everything I ingest, I just don't miss it. Most stuff is fine and tasty without it. Or at least, without that heavy amount of it that I always used to require. Does that make sense?

Peat and others (myself included, before I ever even heard of Peat) have theorized there's an addiction mechanism going on with PUFA. But I think there's an addiction mechanism with *all* fat, at least if there is PUFA in the diet or if there's a PUFA load in the body. Something keeps us hooked into it, even if we move to eating only good saturated fat. The fat craving may have something to do with the body attempting to compensate for an underlying lack of energy, but that's just a guess on my part since the body often craves what it's lacking, and if we're used to not oxidizing carbs/sugar properly we'll oxidize fat instead. But I'm definitely not the brightest light on the tree when it comes to elucidating biochemical mechanisms, or sci-babble. IME it seems to be a compensation for at least some of us, anyway.

If you can break that craving for fat by (again, this is a theory) by shifting the body over to a carb-burning metabolism by eliminating fat almost completely, the compulsion to eat it seems to leave. Anecdotally, this seems to be what happens in more people than just me after they go very low fat. Doesn't seem to matter too much if you're shifting to very low fat starch or very low fat fructose/sugar, either. Seems to be all about the fat.

Gut health may also play into the craving for fat and how hard it is to shift to very low fat. Bad bacteria may help drive cravings. Micronutrient deficiencies might play a part, as well. I had to get all these things sorted to get where I am today, which was kind of a long, hard road. I will say that if I had it to do over again, with the benefit of hindsight, some version of very low fat would be where I would start. If it didn't work, I'd tweak the amount of fat to the minimum necessary to make me feel better, and work from there.
 
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scarlettsmum

scarlettsmum

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@scarlettsmum: what's "wapf"? I just can't figure that one out.


Well, here's the thing. I thought that, too. That I loved fat too much to give it up. Turns out, I don't. Once I got beyond the craving, I seemed to become a take it or leave it kinda girl. I actually had one (1!) piece of bacon today, and that's all I wanted. Ate it, enjoyed it, and immediately forgot about lusting after more. I can count on my right thumb the number of times *that* has ever happened in my life. ;) Because, mmmmmm, bacon. :lol:

That is not to contradict what I said above about living on heavy cream and fatty cheese if I could...I would. And bacon! Don't forget that! :lol: But I can't live on that. High fat/high protein/lo carb helped ruin my health. And now that I've moved beyond the psychological need for fat with almost everything I ingest, I just don't miss it. Most stuff is fine and tasty without it. Or at least, without that heavy amount of it that I always used to require. Does that make sense?

Peat and others (myself included, before I ever even heard of Peat) have theorized there's an addiction mechanism going on with PUFA. But I think there's an addiction mechanism with *all* fat, at least if there is PUFA in the diet or if there's a PUFA load in the body. Something keeps us hooked into it, even if we move to eating only good saturated fat. The fat craving may have something to do with the body attempting to compensate for an underlying lack of energy, but that's just a guess on my part since the body often craves what it's lacking, and if we're used to not oxidizing carbs/sugar properly we'll oxidize fat instead. But I'm definitely not the brightest light on the tree when it comes to elucidating biochemical mechanisms, or sci-babble. IME it seems to be a compensation for at least some of us, anyway.

If you can break that craving for fat by (again, this is a theory) by shifting the body over to a carb-burning metabolism by eliminating fat almost completely, the compulsion to eat it seems to leave. Anecdotally, this seems to be what happens in more people than just me after they go very low fat. Doesn't seem to matter too much if you're shifting to very low fat starch or very low fat fructose/sugar, either. Seems to be all about the fat.

Gut health may also play into the craving for fat and how hard it is to shift to very low fat. Bad bacteria may help drive cravings. Micronutrient deficiencies might play a part, as well. I had to get all these things sorted to get where I am today, which was kind of a long, hard road. I will say that if I had it to do over again, with the benefit of hindsight, some version of very low fat would be where I would start. If it didn't work, I'd tweak the amount of fat to the minimum necessary to make me feel better, and work from there.


Thanks for sharing your experience. I think you are right with the fat addiction. Perhaps my body is used to oxidising fat now, be it saturated or pufa, and perhaps that's why I crave it.
Wapf is Weston A price foundation, it is kind of a precursor to paleo, I'd say. Eating lots of meat, organ meat, unpasteurised diary, stock, sourdough bread and everything full fat. And I just got on the bandwagon of eating butter and cream and full fat milk and clo like it was going out of fashion. I think that's where the my body might have made the switch to burn fat. Who knows? It's all history now.:) At the moment I'm looking into going lowish fat, although nothing drastic. I just want to help my liver out a bit. Interestingly I do like the taste of full fat dairy, but strangely enough I don't digest it so well, so I want to see whether going low fat might help. :)
 
J

James IV

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You are a dynamic organism, but the body pushes towards static homeostasis. If your beta cells, mitochondria, gut biome, etc, are all "used to" your diet being based around fat as an energy source, you will likely continue to crave mostly fat. It's a fairly energy intensive to completely "rewire" the body to a new dominant fuel source. This is why many people from a carb based background feel sick when starting onto a low carb/ketoginic/fasting/caloric restriction type diet. The same is true when making the change back, possibly even more so because of insulin resistance, fatty liver, etc that may come into play after any significant time on the diets I mentioned. Fiber intake and electrolyte balance are also huge factors that change dramatically when switching fuel sources, since the intake of these will drastically change as the food fuel sources change.

I do believe your history is going to make a massive difference in the staple carbohydrate sources you choose when transitioning to a carbohydrate heavy "peat" way of eating. But there is no internet that's going to give you a finite answer in that regard. That's going to be totally up to self experimentation. However, I do very much believe many folks would benefit from a glucose based approach if trasitioning from a fat (food, or bodyfat) based background.

I think is VERY important to record food intake when making any type of major dietary change, and to shift macro ratios slowly. Dumping a bunch of fuel into a system that's wired to run on another type of fuel, is essentially starving the system. If you have records you will see patterns develop, and you can keep on the path of feeling better. The healthier you get, the less the deviations from your standard intake will effect you, with the goal being to totally eat instinctively.
 

Ukall

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low carb/ketoginic/fasting/caloric restriction type diet. The same is true when making the change back, possibly even more so because of insulin resistance, fatty liver, etc that may come into play after any significant time on the diets I mentioned.
Is fasting without calorie restriction still a worry about getting insulin resistance, fatty liver, etc?

I'm asking this because when I was doing fasting I got these results on my blood tests regarding insulin:
- Insulin: 2.3 μUI/mL (3.0 - 25.0)
- HOMA: 0.54 (1.92 - 2.20)

So, it seems that I was more sensitive that time.

I've stopped doing fasting few weeks ago. As I mentioned before, I still don't get hungry as I used to.
So my meals are really messed up. I don't usually have huge meals during the day, so I still eat mostly at night.

Do you believe that it is completely irreversible those things you've said? At least regarding insulin resistance...
 

whodathunkit

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I don't believe any short term loss in metabolism due to fasting or calorie restriction is irreversible. My experience is that it is not, even after long-term metabolism damage due to really crappy lifestyle. You just have to be smart about the fasting or calorie restriction and not take them past the point where you still feel good while doing them. If you listen to your body and remain flexible they can be viable strategies

My blood sugars/insulin resistance improved greatly from intermittent fasting. But only to a point. Didn't normalize. Still not quite normal although much better than they've been in a long time. Still fighting the battle.
 

DesertRat

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After 2 1/2 years, still feeling like a relative newbie, as everything Peat was totally opposite my low carb, naturopathic med training, I think some important things for starters to consider are (1) how long they've been low carb; and (2) whether their glycolysis is truly impaired (e.g. if they have ME/CFS, for example). I'd drop those recommendations for 1800, 2000, etc. minimum calories and instead provide better guidelines on monitoring pulse and temperature to be able to determine when you need more calories, and I'd recommend that everyone keep a one week log of macros before shifting diet, just to have some idea of what their caloric needs have been in the past. Lots of weight gain is common over the first year, and much of this could be prevented by keeping calories about the same and shifting from fats to carbs. For those who don't burn sugar properly, it would be important to build tolerance of T3, niacinamide, and thiamine as simple sugars are introduced.
 
J

James IV

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Is fasting without calorie restriction still a worry about getting insulin resistance, fatty liver, etc?

I'm asking this because when I was doing fasting I got these results on my blood tests regarding insulin:
- Insulin: 2.3 μUI/mL (3.0 - 25.0)
- HOMA: 0.54 (1.92 - 2.20)

So, it seems that I was more sensitive that time.

I've stopped doing fasting few weeks ago. As I mentioned before, I still don't get hungry as I used to.
So my meals are really messed up. I don't usually have huge meals during the day, so I still eat mostly at night.

Do you believe that it is completely irreversible those things you've said? At least regarding insulin resistance...

I don't believe fasting is harmful per say. Especially if you have a lot of extra body fat. I talked about that in another thread. And I don't believe any metabolic damage is incurable.
I would caution any type of scheduled fasting routine. I think it's important to listen to hunger signals. But if some days you eat 2 meals and some days you eat 5, I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with that.
That being said, conscious caloric restriction is probably not the best approach to long term fat loss unless you are dangerously overweight . Just eat better food, not less food.
 
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m_arch

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Philosophy time :pompous:

IMO, there are 2 core tenets to this thing we call the "Peat Diet":

(1) Avoid stressful foods -- with PUFA being the most commonly consumed and generic stressor.
(2) Increase metabolic fuel -- in general, this will revolve around glucose, galactose, and fructose intake

.....
Great summary and explanation! Weirdly coming into this Peat stuff my metabolism, as measured by an ETCO2 monitor was really pretty good but I still didn't feel so great... so I looked elsewhere.
In Peats books he also talks a lot about protective steroids - it felt like those where his "big two", metabolism and protective steroids.
I guess if metabolism is firing, steroids can make it a more efficient flame.
Since taking 100,000 UI's of vitamin A along with two eggs (cholesterol) every morning I'm feeling a lot stronger, like I can recover from sports faster, I feel less general aches and pains, my dry eyes are gone, acne is gone, dandruff is gone, and I seem to be able to cope with metal stress better.

Since vitamin A, cholesterol and t3 are required to make all the steroids, I assume this is why I feel like this. I also take a small dose of progestene before bed (helps my sleep and push down estrogen) in case any of those steroids are converted to estrogen. I wonder how much testosterone a person can generate with vitamin A, t3 and cholesterol. I guess the good thing is that its closer to the "source" - in that your body is still having to do the work to make the testosterone, rather than injecting it like a body builder and then having issues with your own testistuclar production later.
 
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scarlettsmum

scarlettsmum

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You are a dynamic organism, but the body pushes towards static homeostasis. If your beta cells, mitochondria, gut biome, etc, are all "used to" your diet being based around fat as an energy source, you will likely continue to crave mostly fat. It's a fairly energy intensive to completely "rewire" the body to a new dominant fuel source. This is why many people from a carb based background feel sick when starting onto a low carb/ketoginic/fasting/caloric restriction type diet. The same is true when making the change back, possibly even more so because of insulin resistance, fatty liver, etc that may come into play after any significant time on the diets I mentioned. Fiber intake and electrolyte balance are also huge factors that change dramatically when switching fuel sources, since the intake of these will drastically change as the food fuel sources change.

I do believe your history is going to make a massive difference in the staple carbohydrate sources you choose when transitioning to a carbohydrate heavy "peat" way of eating. But there is no internet that's going to give you a finite answer in that regard. That's going to be totally up to self experimentation. However, I do very much believe many folks would benefit from a glucose based approach if trasitioning from a fat (food, or bodyfat) based background.

I think is VERY important to record food intake when making any type of major dietary change, and to shift macro ratios slowly. Dumping a bunch of fuel into a system that's wired to run on another type of fuel, is essentially starving the system. If you have records you will see patterns develop, and you can keep on the path of feeling better. The healthier you get, the less the deviations from your standard intake will effect you, with the goal being to totally eat instinctively.

James, what you said is what I somehow felt but didn't know how to put it into words. I was just thinking of starting to track my food and how I react to it to get a better idea of what works and what doesn't. What you said makes lots of sense. And I don't want to rely on unnecessary supplements, I just want to get an understanding of how different foods work for me with the ultimate goal of being able to eat instinctively. And perhaps then reevaluate and see of anything else is needed. Before I started on Peat's diet I was fairly stable and now tinkering with diet I can sense my body isn't happy because of me pushing it in one direction whilst it wants to stay in static homeostasis as you put it. So my adrenaline is triggered by anything and everything, my body likes to react to anything and everything, sleep is disrupted. I am actually forced to really very carefully pay attention to what it says and follow through otherwise I will suffer the consequences. Often I make something to eat/drink out of habit, take couple of bites and my body rejects it and I have to find something else that it wants. Never before my body acted so primadonish, but if I push down something my body's not happy with, I can count on adrenaline and a pounding heart. I am now trying to avoid anything stimulating, be it coffee, alcohol or large doses of supplements. I feel that now first step is to get diet right. I think I am going to re read and follow fight fatigue with food again, I think the Rubins may be onto something.
 

EIRE24

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Great summary and explanation! Weirdly coming into this Peat stuff my metabolism, as measured by an ETCO2 monitor was really pretty good but I still didn't feel so great... so I looked elsewhere.
In Peats books he also talks a lot about protective steroids - it felt like those where his "big two", metabolism and protective steroids.
I guess if metabolism is firing, steroids can make it a more efficient flame.
Since taking 100,000 UI's of vitamin A along with two eggs (cholesterol) every morning I'm feeling a lot stronger, like I can recover from sports faster, I feel less general aches and pains, my dry eyes are gone, acne is gone, dandruff is gone, and I seem to be able to cope with metal stress better.

Since vitamin A, cholesterol and t3 are required to make all the steroids, I assume this is why I feel like this. I also take a small dose of progestene before bed (helps my sleep and push down estrogen) in case any of those steroids are converted to estrogen. I wonder how much testosterone a person can generate with vitamin A, t3 and cholesterol. I guess the good thing is that its closer to the "source" - in that your body is still having to do the work to make the testosterone, rather than injecting it like a body builder and then having issues with your own testistuclar production later.

And without the vitamin A is your acne extreme or only mild? Is the cholesterol necessary with the vitamin A to work properly?
 
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