RP Diet Vs Asian Diets?

[Maandy]

Hey guys/girls!

This is my first post here and I've just started reading about the RP diet but I'll cut to the chase. What strikes me the most in almost all modern diets is their hate towards grains - are they really that bad? I mean go and look at life expectancies: Japan, a country in which you eat rice *all* the time, sometimes 3-4 times a day, has the highest life expectancy! Furthermore soy and products made out of soy (natto - fermented soy beans) and beans are at the core of their diet. So are fish, all sorts of fish! Salmon, mackerel you name it they eat it all the time! Dairy? Most Japanese people are lactose intolerant - dairy consumption is one of the lowest in the world (don't quote me on this, I'm just saying this based on my 2 years of living there) and hasn't been wide spread since maybe a few decades ago.

What I'm getting at is - are there any materials trying to analyze such diets against RP diet? Why might they work etc.? I mean the Japanese diet (I mean the more traditional one, not the post WW2/current one) seems like a direct opposite to RP's diet (maybe excluding seafood) yet they have both an extremely high LE *and* they are in really good shape (damn I wish I was in as good condition as many 50-70yo here).

 

[jaa]

Humans evolved eating whatever was available, not what optimizes for lifespan. That's one reason why grains are a staple of every society. People would starve if they didn't eat grains.

When you're talking about life expectancy by population, there are no human populations eating anything that close to RP diet, so you can't really compare. But you can find very healthy populations that consume quality dairy if that's your concern.

 

[Amazoniac]

They are not that distant, apart from the fact that Asian Diet is too broad.
Regarding the Japanese, like in all traditional cultures, they prepare and consume the foods in the proper way.
A lot of rice, but paired with fermented (acidic) foods, fat, fiber and protein. Always refined.
Oily fish consumed mostly raw or cooked gently.
Soy mostly fermented, that reduces greatly its negative effects.
I can't remember the source but it's not that low in dairy as the media shows, at least in the traditional one.
The major difference I notice is from sugars. Dr Peat favours balance between fructose and glucose, while Japanese is mostly glucose.
Their high intake of starch might not turn out to be a low-fat diet after all. Another point that both diets are not that distant, higher in stable fats.
In the Japanese diet, PUFAs are consumed in whole foods form and usually raw. So, they naturally contain what it needs to minimize the instability.

 

[nikotrope]

Also, fish head soups is consumed so gelatin, calcium and thyroid was ingested that way. Also I'm sure they ate lots of entire small fishes. So they had other sources of calcium than milk.

 

[BingDing]

The high life expectancy reported for the Japanese has to be taken with a grain of salt. Many of those old people have actually been dead for decades, their relatives were collecting the Japanese version of social security. RP has commented on this, google can find more info.

 

[Maandy]

A lot of rice, but paired with fermented (acidic) foods, fat, fiber and protein. Always refined.

Hm so the bottom line is that it's ok to eat grains when paired with appropriate food *but* it will be better not to eat them at all?

Oily fish consumed mostly raw or cooked gently.

If we're talking about sushi and sashimi then yes but even for Japanese people those are pretty rare, in most cases they would grill their fish.

Soy mostly fermented, that reduces greatly its negative effects.

Yes but in *huge* quantities. I would understand it if it was small portions from time to time but they eat some sort of soy products *all* the time (tofu, miso, natto, soy sauce etc its everywhere).

I can't remember the source but it's not that low in dairy as the media shows, at least in the traditional one.

I'm not talking about media reports but from my personal experience after living here for over 2 years. Not many people drink milk, not many eat cheese regularly - mainly younger people. After all milk started showing up only around late 19th century and really started gaining "popularity" in 1950-70s. I rarely see people drink milk by itself and when they add it while cooking it's a ridiculously small amount.

The high life expectancy reported for the Japanese has to be taken with a grain of salt. Many of those old people have actually been dead for decades, their relatives were collecting the Japanese version of social security. RP has commented on this, google can find more info.

Ah yes I've seen such cases indeed but they aren't that popular. Will google for more info but I'd be surprised if it knocked Japan out of top3-5, the amount of elderly people here is just astonishing. Also as I mentioned LE is one thing, the fact they are a really healthy (ok they *were*, thanks McDonalds and processed food) nation is a different thing.

As I mentioned I'm just wondering if most current diets are doing something wrong or is it more "some current cultures are doing fine but they would do better if they followed X/Y/Z diet" ;-)

 

[natedawggh]

According to the World Health Organization, Andorra is ranked second in life expectancy and they neither are Asian nor eat an Asian diet. China as well, which is Asian, ranks number 65, far below the United State's rank at 36, so there's really no evidence of any "asian" diet that is life extending, as well the Japanese's statistics are supposed to be weighted incorrectly due to their country's social security setup which encourages the delayed reporting of elderly deaths.

Observationally as well when descendants from these long lived asian cultures move to new countries, where the diets are not grain based and even though their parents are short in stature their children grow to much taller heights, because excessive grain consumption stunts growth whereas fruit and dairy products support it.

 

[Amazoniac]

A lot of rice, but paired with fermented (acidic) foods, fat, fiber and protein. Always refined.

Hm so the bottom line is that it's ok to eat grains when paired with appropriate food *but* it will be better not to eat them at all?

Oily fish consumed mostly raw or cooked gently.

If we're talking about sushi and sashimi then yes but even for Japanese people those are pretty rare, in most cases they would grill their fish.

Soy mostly fermented, that reduces greatly its negative effects.

Yes but in *huge* quantities. I would understand it if it was small portions from time to time but they eat some sort of soy products *all* the time (tofu, miso, natto, soy sauce etc its everywhere).

I can't remember the source but it's not that low in dairy as the media shows, at least in the traditional one.

I'm not talking about media reports but from my personal experience after living here for over 2 years. Not many people drink milk, not many eat cheese regularly - mainly younger people. After all milk started showing up only around late 19th century and really started gaining "popularity" in 1950-70s. I rarely see people drink milk by itself and when they add it while cooking it's a ridiculously small amount.

The high life expectancy reported for the Japanese has to be taken with a grain of salt. Many of those old people have actually been dead for decades, their relatives were collecting the Japanese version of social security. RP has commented on this, google can find more info.

Ah yes I've seen such cases indeed but they aren't that popular. Will google for more info but I'd be surprised if it knocked Japan out of top3-5, the amount of elderly people here is just astonishing. Also as I mentioned LE is one thing, the fact they are a really healthy (ok they *were*, thanks McDonalds and processed food) nation is a different thing.

As I mentioned I'm just wondering if most current diets are doing something wrong or is it more "some current cultures are doing fine but they would do better if they followed X/Y/Z diet" ;-)

Most people here prefer a balance between fructose and glucose, so they favour fruits over starches for that matter. But I prefer more glucose in relation to fructose and thus starches with less toxins, like white rice, sweet potatoes, etc. It's personal since there are a lot of variations here in this forum.
Fishs cook fast, so even grilling won't be that bad. For sure not optimal. Apparently to me they tend to cook oily fish in moist heat, and others grilling.
Fermented soy products in large quantities have to do in part what Jaa mentioned, and the other part may be that the benefits outweight the downsides.
This is just a speculation but maybe they didn't have the urgency to consume dairy in significant proportions due to their food being more available; unlike some populations living more isolated, in cold temperatures, etc.

It's also interesting to note that both diets also are close regarding salt intake and low consumption of inflammatory amino acids.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I thought it was because of the massive incentives to emigrate or immigrate for young people that skewed the data on mortality. But as long as you trust these numbers you see Japan has the least depressed population in the world and then it is seventh in number of suicides. It is unreliable and "tradition" can only explain so much given that tradition grows largely from diet and environment, so invoking it as an explanation isn't really an option.

 

[pboy]

basically their diet isn't that bad, its better than most around the world..however compared to a perfect metabolic diet its still a bit a distance away. It proves that on a pretty good, albeit subpar diet in reality, you can still live a relatively happy long life. On a Peat style diet you might live to like 120 or more or something. What helps them also compared to the rest of the world is priority on society, family, nature, and harmony. Those factors all reduce stress to such a degree it makes a profound difference over the western way of operating throughout life and perspective on the world, and nature

 

[Maandy]

1. As someone mentioned one thing I find strange was their average height - I've read somewhere that high soy intake might be the cause! That's one of the reasons I've started looking into their diet and what might be wrong with it.

2. As I said the LE data might be skewed by some scams but: a) believe me there aren't that many of them b) there are villages that don't take part in those statistics (because they are in the middle of nowhere, good luck getting there, some of them were discovered just after WW2 when the US was doing aerial shots to compare with official documents) and people there seem pretty elderly. Still as I said I find it to be a very healthy nation that's why I'm so curious about grains and milk.

3. The suicide rate has nothing to do with their eating habits - it's just that the whole society is screwed up, they study/work too much, there's too much pressure put on them since early childhood etc. That's definitely a factor they should fix asap!

Guess I'll just try to get the best of two worlds, thanks for all the input it was very valuable The only problem with RP diet is that it's very hard to get into, I know a thing a two about diets/chemistry/biology but still reading all the papers and creating a working menu takes a lot of time - guess that's the main reason this diet isn't as popular as paleo/primal/wapf etc.

 

[jyb]

You also made the assumptions that the healthier Japanese (there are several traditional diets depending on location) are the ones eating more rice and less dairy/meat. Some studies show the contrary.

There have been healthy cultures (maybe healthier than Japanese) who drank milk plenty and didn't eat grains. Grains are not the only source of carbs. Milk has a lot of carbs, fruit too.

 

[Such_Saturation]

And why do they they study and work too much?

Here is some evidence from Korea:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22209672
we found that the Korean traditional dietary pattern was not associated with individual components of the metabolic syndrome but was significantly associated with increased odds of having metabolic syndrome. The fruit and dairy pattern was significantly associated with decreased odds of impaired blood glucose, hypertriglyceridemia, and metabolic syndrome. Our findings suggest that the fruit and dairy pattern is associated with reduced risk of having metabolic syndrome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19328258
The results suggest that high intake of seaweed and oily foods as well as eating habits such as eating faster and frequent overeating, are associated with the risk of metabolic syndrome. In contrast, high fruit intake may be associated with a lower risk of metabolic syndrome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22732459
Specific dietary patterns, which include the white rice and kimchi and high-fat, sweets, and coffee patterns, may be independently associated with obesity in Korean adults.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25365577
The traditional pattern and the snack pattern were not associated with an increased prevalence of metabolic syndrome. The meat dietary pattern was associated with a higher prevalence of metabolic syndrome in Korean male adults.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21215606
Compared with the 'Traditional' pattern, the 'Meat and Alcohol' pattern was associated with a 33% increased risk of having elevated blood glucose, a 21% increased risk of having elevated serum triglycerides and a 21% increased risk of having elevated blood pressure. However, the 'Traditional' pattern showed a 23% increased risk of having low high density lipoprotein (HDL)-cholesterol compared with the other two patterns by logistics analysis.

 

[Hasen]

As a country they're doing well but not perfect so you can't assume that their diet is perfect or that that means grains are ok, it could always be that grains are the worst thing they eat, its just the fact they eat high carb generally that they do well. Which is in keeping with at least one of Ray Peat's theories. What you can note about Asians is that they live long, they don't lose their hair...but they are typically short and the men lack muscle, broad shoulders etc.

As a country they're doing well, certainly in some areas but as individuals we want to do better. There's certainly stuff to take away from that like high carb is good and dairy may be better avoided?

 

[Fearlessgolfer]

Hey guys/girls!

This is my first post here and I've just started reading about the RP diet but I'll cut to the chase. What strikes me the most in almost all modern diets is their hate towards grains - are they really that bad? I mean go and look at life expectancies: Japan, a country in which you eat rice *all* the time, sometimes 3-4 times a day, has the highest life expectancy! Furthermore soy and products made out of soy (natto - fermented soy beans) and beans are at the core of their diet. So are fish, all sorts of fish! Salmon, mackerel you name it they eat it all the time! Dairy? Most Japanese people are lactose intolerant - dairy consumption is one of the lowest in the world (don't quote me on this, I'm just saying this based on my 2 years of living there) and hasn't been wide spread since maybe a few decades ago.

What I'm getting at is - are there any materials trying to analyze such diets against RP diet? Why might they work etc.? I mean the Japanese diet (I mean the more traditional one, not the post WW2/current one) seems like a direct opposite to RP's diet (maybe excluding seafood) yet they have both an extremely high LE *and* they are in really good shape (damn I wish I was in as good condition as many 50-70yo here).

Is there RP diet? I thought it was guideline based on scientific findings and his philosophy which I like flexibility/optionality, no?

 

[Fearlessgolfer]

And why do they they study and work too much?

Here is some evidence from Korea:

A fruit and dairy dietary pattern is associated with a reduced risk of metabolic syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI
we found that the Korean traditional dietary pattern was not associated with individual components of the metabolic syndrome but was significantly associated with increased odds of having metabolic syndrome. The fruit and dairy pattern was significantly associated with decreased odds of impaired blood glucose, hypertriglyceridemia, and metabolic syndrome. Our findings suggest that the fruit and dairy pattern is associated with reduced risk of having metabolic syndrome.

Dietary intake, eating habits, and metabolic syndrome in Korean men. - PubMed - NCBI
The results suggest that high intake of seaweed and oily foods as well as eating habits such as eating faster and frequent overeating, are associated with the risk of metabolic syndrome. In contrast, high fruit intake may be associated with a lower risk of metabolic syndrome.

A rice-based traditional dietary pattern is associated with obesity in Korean adults. - PubMed - NCBI
Specific dietary patterns, which include the white rice and kimchi and high-fat, sweets, and coffee patterns, may be independently associated with obesity in Korean adults.

Dietary patterns of Korean adults and the prevalence of metabolic syndrome: a cross-sectional study. - PubMed - NCBI
The traditional pattern and the snack pattern were not associated with an increased prevalence of metabolic syndrome. The meat dietary pattern was associated with a higher prevalence of metabolic syndrome in Korean male adults.

A traditional Korean dietary pattern and metabolic syndrome abnormalities. - PubMed - NCBI
Compared with the 'Traditional' pattern, the 'Meat and Alcohol' pattern was associated with a 33% increased risk of having elevated blood glucose, a 21% increased risk of having elevated serum triglycerides and a 21% increased risk of having elevated blood pressure. However, the 'Traditional' pattern showed a 23% increased risk of having low high density lipoprotein (HDL)-cholesterol compared with the other two patterns by logistics analysis.

Good information and thanks for your efforts.

I found this while I was searching kimchi and its affect which I eat 2 - 3 times a week with rice if possible but not always.

BTW, in one of the study, they defined the obesity using BMI which I am not comfortable. According to BMI, I would be considered over weight and my brother (personal trainer) who is less than 9% body fat year around would be considered obese. Thus unless they use different perimeter of BMI for specific population/race, it can skew data, no?