Topical Test Base, gyno and DHT • Help pls.

[metamorph]

Looking for help on this:

I recently dissolved micronized test base (PPL) into Vitamin E/EVOO (tocovit and a little bit of progest-e). 5mg/drop. I used one drop on the scrotum for the DHT benefits 1-2x per day as well as 1 drop sublingually 1-2 drops per day. Each drop being 5mg. So, 5-10mg topically on scrotum and 5-10mg oral subligual.

I've been doing this for 1 week. And, a day or two after beginning this I began experiencing nipple sensitivity on the left side where I already have a case of gyno. I hoped that it would pass and that the DHT from scrotal application would negate the potential aromatase from the test. Although, I didn't think it would be an issue at this low dose.

In 1wk of use I could definitely notice the increase in muscularity but the sensitivity from the gyno and demotion of confidence from that definitely makes this not worth it. It also didn't help my mood or energy much and at times it even caused me to be down or low energy.

The gyno is pretty bad/very noticeable. I'm not over-weight but will drop some pounds to see if it helps appearance wise.

I have taken a little bit of stanolone DHT powder under my tongue and wonder if DHT is the route for me. It's not micronized and didn't dissolve in DMSO/water 70/30 well at all. I was hoping to use this directly on gyno and see if it would help as an aromatase inhibitor so that I could continue experimenting with test base in vit e. Going to try to dissolve it again just pure dmso/dht per a members recommendation.

I didn't use test base yesterday or today aside from a little bit around my face to see if would help with some hair regrowth. I still feel the nipple sensitivity and am obviously a bit worried.

Any help or guidance would be great.

 

[EustaceBagge]

Use your whole dose on scrotum. Also progesterone inhibits the androgen receptor, so you may be shooting yourself in the leg here with your weird combination.

Weird thing is how 20mg of this stuff can cause gyno. I just don't believe it. Also what do you expect to get out of such a low dose, it will definitely shut you down unlike what others told you, just that it will take longer to shutdown because the dose is so low.
The gyno can be fixed with topical pure dht cream, but if it keeps growing that may be an issue. Make sure that it is not inflating instead of growing, because progesterone may cause it to become puffier without actually growing.
I just don't understand the sentiment here with progesterone, ray peat likes it because it is anti-estrogenic, but so is dht, so as a male why resort to progesterone? For men the main anti-estrogen is definitely dht.

Rant over, just use your full dose on your scrotum for now.

 

[metamorph]

Use your whole dose on scrotum. Also progesterone inhibits the androgen receptor, so you may be shooting yourself in the leg here with your weird combination.

Weird thing is how 20mg of this stuff can cause gyno. I just don't believe it. Also what do you expect to get out of such a low dose, it will definitely shut you down unlike what others told you, just that it will take longer to shutdown because the dose is so low.
The gyno can be fixed with topical pure dht cream, but if it keeps growing that may be an issue. Make sure that it is not inflating instead of growing, because progesterone may cause it to become puffier without actually growing.
I just don't understand the sentiment here with progesterone, ray peat likes it because it is anti-estrogenic, but so is dht, so as a male why resort to progesterone? For men the main anti-estrogen is definitely dht.

Rant over, just use your full dose on your scrotum for now.

I honestly only used the progest-e to help better dissolve the test base. It wasn't assimilating into the vitamin e/evoo (tocovit) that well so I used a small amount of the progest-e to help it along. I didn't realize that I could me compromising the solution via doing that so thanks for letting me know. I have pre-existing gyno and the addition of this small amount of test has definitely aggravated it.

Would it be better to discontinue usage to avoid any enlargement to the gyno? Thanks.

 

[EustaceBagge]

I honestly only used the progest-e to help better dissolve the test base. It wasn't assimilating into the vitamin e/evoo (tocovit) that well so I used a small amount of the progest-e to help it along. I didn't realize that I could me compromising the solution via doing that so thanks for letting me know. I have pre-existing gyno and the addition of this small amount of test has definitely aggravated it.

Would it be better to discontinue usage to avoid any enlargement to the gyno? Thanks.

You used it for only 1 week, that is why I said that I found it hard to believe your gyno grew from using only 20mg of your solution. But to answer your question, if you stop usage your gyno will stop growing yes.

In 1wk of use I could definitely notice the increase in muscularity but the sensitivity from the gyno and demotion of confidence from that definitely makes this not worth it. It also didn't help my mood or energy much and at times it even caused me to be down or low energy.

Increased muscularity in 1 week from 20mg of your solution? Hard to believe, it is barely 140mg a week and not even injected. If you want mood benefits and genuine mass, go for a real cycle with masteron in it for mood.

I have taken a little bit of stanolone DHT powder under my tongue and wonder if DHT is the route for me. It's not micronized and didn't dissolve in DMSO/water 70/30 well at all. I was hoping to use this directly on gyno and see if it would help as an aromatase inhibitor so that I could continue experimenting with test base in vit e. Going to try to dissolve it again just pure dmso/dht per a members recommendation.

This should've helped against your gyno, which makes me think you used too low of a dose, or you didn't use it with a fat heavy meal (20gr+ of fat minimum). For now if you can manage to dissolve it it should definitely help against your gyno if applied topically (and if it is real). Don't try to concentrate your dht solution too much, 5% or 10% dht to dmso. Hope it works man cuz ive got no experience with this.

 

[metamorph]

You used it for only 1 week, that is why I said that I found it hard to believe your gyno grew from using only 20mg of your solution. But to answer your question, if you stop usage your gyno will stop growing yes.


Increased muscularity in 1 week from 20mg of your solution? Hard to believe, it is barely 140mg a week and not even injected. If you want mood benefits and genuine mass, go for a real cycle with masteron in it for mood.


This should've helped against your gyno, which makes me think you used too low of a dose, or you didn't use it with a fat heavy meal (20gr+ of fat minimum). For now if you can manage to dissolve it it should definitely help against your gyno if applied topically (and if it is real). Don't try to concentrate your dht solution too much, 5% or 10% dht to dmso. Hope it works man cuz ive got no experience with this.

Sensitivity on the pre-existing gyno as a result of the test base has definitely occurred. Now, my question is; what does that imply? Why would I be so sensitive to such a low dose?

I've experienced an increase in muscle pump, hardness and tone. Perhaps that's more accurate and believable than increased muscularity.

What would a recommended dose of DHT with a high fat meal be? I probably have been dosing to low and also not with a heavy fat meal. Instead, a tiny pinch with followed by a drop of vit. e and/or butter.

Thankfully, I just succeeded in making a 10% solution of DHT in DMSO. 10ml, 20 drops per. ml., 200mg of DHT, 1mg per drop. My only concern now is skin irritation upon application. For instance; when I use it on the visible re-sensitized gyno will it be to irritating and would the irritation then be estrogenic in it of itself. I guess theres only one way to find out and just try it. Perhaps I should add more DHT to make a stronger solution so that I don't have to use as many drops?

Thanks for commenting and sharing your thoughts. Gladly welcome any more input from you.

 

[Jman]

Progesterone consistently feels way more androgenic to me than testosterone or dht. It’s powerful anti stress effect lowers cortisol and estrogen, allowing whatever testosterone you have to function with less opposition, stops the wastage of your testosterone into estrogen via aromatise, and increases your production of pregnenolone, dhea, testosterone.

A good way for me to get a numb ****, anxiety and headaches, is to use a few milligrams of Dhea or testosterone whilst I’m not supplementing some progesterone and or enough thyroid.

A good dose of Progesterone on the other hand, virtually always increases penile sensitivity / erection strength / libido (in a comfortable way, with very intense satisfying orgasms) / muscle fullness / facial hair growth.

When my thyroid and progesterone are good, a milligram of Dhea or testosterone can create a powerful mood / motivation / body strength boost. Something I do once in awhile when I feel like my body is feeling fairly good but I could use a little boost.

DHT is a weird one for me, it definitely boosts sex drive and creates steel like erections, and a mild relaxation anti-anxiety effect, but really doesn’t seem to have the mood / strength boosting effects of Dhea and test. After a week or so it seems to create some sort of upstream shutdown because I’ll start to feel off in many ways. I’ve seen a few others mention the same.

So from my fairly extensive experience, as a now 29 year old male, I would advise what Ray would constantly advise - it’s best to focus on your thyroid, vitamin D, calcium, progesterone, diet etc.. before supplementing androgens.

 

[metamorph]

Progesterone consistently feels way more androgenic to me than testosterone or dht. It’s powerful anti stress effect lowers cortisol and estrogen, allowing whatever testosterone you have to function with less opposition, stops the wastage of your testosterone into estrogen via aromatise, and increases your production of pregnenolone, dhea, testosterone.

A good way for me to get a numb ****, anxiety and headaches, is to use a few milligrams of Dhea or testosterone whilst I’m not supplementing some progesterone and or enough thyroid.

A good dose of Progesterone on the other hand, virtually always increases penile sensitivity / erection strength / libido (in a comfortable way, with very intense satisfying orgasms) / muscle fullness / facial hair growth.

When my thyroid and progesterone are good, a milligram of Dhea or testosterone can create a powerful mood / motivation / body strength boost. Something I do once in awhile when I feel like my body is feeling fairly good but I could use a little boost.

DHT is a weird one for me, it definitely boosts sex drive and creates steel like erections, and a mild relaxation anti-anxiety effect, but really doesn’t seem to have the mood / strength boosting effects of Dhea and test. After a week or so it seems to create some sort of upstream shutdown because I’ll start to feel off in many ways. I’ve seen a few others mention the same.

So from my fairly extensive experience, as a now 29 year old male, I would advise what Ray would constantly advise - it’s best to focus on your thyroid, vitamin D, calcium, progesterone, diet etc.. before supplementing androgens.

Thanks for the post. I ensured that I first dialed in Ray's recommendations for quite awhile before experimenting with the low dose test-base and DHT. My focus has been on all of those, especially thyroid.

"It’s essential to have everything else in place, thyroid, calcium, magnesium, protein, vitamin D, vitamin E, pregnenolone, DHEA; then one milligram per day can have very strong effects, quickly."RP (2018)

I definitely felt what you described with DHT. And, welcome anymore advice from you.

 

[EustaceBagge]

Sensitivity on the pre-existing gyno as a result of the test base has definitely occurred. Now, my question is; what does that imply? Why would I be so sensitive to such a low dose?

I've experienced an increase in muscle pump, hardness and tone. Perhaps that's more accurate and believable than increased muscularity.

What would a recommended dose of DHT with a high fat meal be? I probably have been dosing to low and also not with a heavy fat meal. Instead, a tiny pinch with followed by a drop of vit. e and/or butter.

Thankfully, I just succeeded in making a 10% solution of DHT in DMSO. 10ml, 20 drops per. ml., 200mg of DHT, 1mg per drop. My only concern now is skin irritation upon application. For instance; when I use it on the visible re-sensitized gyno will it be to irritating and would the irritation then be estrogenic in it of itself. I guess theres only one way to find out and just try it. Perhaps I should add more DHT to make a stronger solution so that I don't have to use as many drops?

Thanks for commenting and sharing your thoughts. Gladly welcome any more input from you.

The skin irritation should be a non-issue and because the half life of DHT is low you could apply the DHT topically on the gyno lump twice a day. I have no experience with the dose required but 1 drop = 1mg seems very low, but then again in puberty you produce about 10-15mg of DHT a day so it might be effective anyway. Experiment yourself with an effective dose I would say. As for oral use of DHT, 5mg-10mg is already a lot, and how much you want to use depends on what you want to get out of it. If you just want a mild boost, just use the lowest dose that feels effective to you. Just know that all doses are suppressive given enough time!

So if I were you I would use the T only topically on the scrotum, and the DHT topically on your gyno lump, and maybe orally with a high fat meal depending on your goals. Later you can start experimenting with the T orally again, but for now scrotal is safest as it guarantees good conversion to DHT instead of estrogen.

The most important part is the dose you would need to remove your gyno, but I really have no clue there.

 

[metamorph]

The skin irritation should be a non-issue and because the half life of DHT is low you could apply the DHT topically on the gyno lump twice a day. I have no experience with the dose required but 1 drop = 1mg seems very low, but then again in puberty you produce about 10-15mg of DHT a day so it might be effective anyway. Experiment yourself with an effective dose I would say. As for oral use of DHT, 5mg-10mg is already a lot, and how much you want to use depends on what you want to get out of it. If you just want a mild boost, just use the lowest dose that feels effective to you. Just know that all doses are suppressive given enough time!

So if I were you I would use the T only topically on the scrotum, and the DHT topically on your gyno lump, and maybe orally with a high fat meal depending on your goals. Later you can start experimenting with the T orally again, but for now scrotal is safest as it guarantees good conversion to DHT instead of estrogen.

The most important part is the dose you would need to remove your gyno, but I really have no clue there.

I may add more DHT into the DMSO as the 10% DHT dissolved really well in pure DMSO. I may double it making it a 20% solution and 2mg-drop.

For oral/sunlingual it's a bit difficult to measure out such a small amount (10mg and under) so I may dissolve it in a solution of vit. e/evoo for ease and effectiveness.

Once I get a handle on the gyno sensitivity I'd like to keep experimenting with the T only topically. So, i'll proceed as you mentioned with the DHT topically on the gyno and orally with high fat meal. Then, intro scrotal T.

Thanks again.

 

[EustaceBagge]

I may add more DHT into the DMSO as the 10% DHT dissolved really well in pure DMSO. I may double it making it a 20% solution and 2mg-drop.

For oral/sunlingual it's a bit difficult to measure out such a small amount (10mg and under) so I may dissolve it in a solution of vit. e/evoo for ease and effectiveness.

Once I get a handle on the gyno sensitivity I'd like to keep experimenting with the T only topically. So, i'll proceed as you mentioned with the DHT topically on the gyno and orally with high fat meal. Then, intro scrotal T.

Thanks again.

No problem, I would like to hear how it goes once the protocol is finetuned :)

 

[metamorph]

No problem, I would like to hear how it goes once the protocol is finetuned :)

Just tried the DHT from PPL in DMSO on the gyno and it tingles big time. I guess that’s the DMSO. But, it feels just like the onset of gyno symptoms a.k.a., itchy nips. So, not sure what to do with this.

I put few of the drops on and they just sat there and didn’t lay into the skin but stayed like a bead on the skin. So, after a few minutes I grabbed a bit of pure aloe and rubbed it in.

15min later the tingling continues. Hope it’s good DHT.

 

[Snarf]

@metamorph Ive been wanting to try using test for a while now, but like you, I have a case of pre existing gyno. Ive read that anyone that has gyno and uses test will only make things worse and will have a constant battle using ai’s to keep it under control. This really puts me off trying it, as well as my natural production being shutdown. I know that Ray said that using less than what we naturally produce each day would prevent shutdown but I’m not so sure that he is correct on that one.

 

[tasfarelel]

One thing to add is that adding DHT (or any of the derivates) will not kill an existing gyno due to high estrogen.

I know many believe DHT does this, but when you screen the many anecdotes from (more professional) bodybuilding forums, you will see that it's not working like this for most people. Best is to have some aromasin at hand to deal with high-estrogen situations. Sometimes, one can have too high estrogen only temporarily before your body finds a new balance with the exogenous hormones.

And have your estrogen levels checked at least at the beginning when starting to use stuff from PPL. You never know for sure if the stanolone is really stanolone. If you use enough of it (similar to straight masteron), test, FSH, LH, and estrogen may be all on the lower end.

 

[metamorph]

@metamorph Ive been wanting to try using test for a while now, but like you, I have a case of pre existing gyno. Ive read that anyone that has gyno and uses test will only make things worse and will have a constant battle using ai’s to keep it under control. This really puts me off trying it, as well as my natural production being shutdown. I know that Ray said that using less than what we naturally produce each day would prevent shutdown but I’m not so sure that he is correct on that one.

The 5mg on the scrotum 2x a day + 2 5mg drops orally (20mg total) per day was too much for me to start with. I’m very sensitive to everything so I should’ve known better.

+ I was experimenting with the DHT simultaneously with the T. And, I want precise in my dosing with it.

My mood was jacked, pre-existing gyno flared terribly, and I halted further use of the T about 2 days ago. This was after 10 days of usage. The gyno hyper sensitivity has just calmed down and I really hope it stays that way.

I may incorporate T again at 1mg per Ray’s advice. Not sure when but after I stabilize more and feel good I’ll consider another less extreme go at it.

I just dissolved some DHT into Vit E/EVOO at 1mg per drop. And, will continue with that in the evenings 1x a day.

I’ll report back.

 

[metamorph]

One thing to add is that adding DHT (or any of the derivates) will not kill an existing gyno due to high estrogen.

I know many believe DHT does this, but when you screen the many anecdotes from (more professional) bodybuilding forums, you will see that it's not working like this for most people. Best is to have some aromasin at hand to deal with high-estrogen situations. Sometimes, one can have too high estrogen only temporarily before your body finds a new balance with the exogenous hormones.

And have your estrogen levels checked at least at the beginning when starting to use stuff from PPL. You never know for sure if the stanolone is really stanolone. If you use enough of it (similar to straight masteron), test, FSH, LH, and estrogen may be all on the lower end.

That makes sense regarding the body finding a new balance.

I’ll look into aromasin and see about keeping some on hand.

Could you dive a bit deeper with the ppl DHT legitimacy concern?

Just responded to a post above with an update as well. Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

 

[Korven]

The 5mg on the scrotum 2x a day + 2 5mg drops orally (20mg total) per day was too much for me to start with. I’m very sensitive to everything so I should’ve known better.

+ I was experimenting with the DHT simultaneously with the T. And, I want precise in my dosing with it.

My mood was jacked, pre-existing gyno flared terribly, and I halted further use of the T about 2 days ago. This was after 10 days of usage. The gyno hyper sensitivity has just calmed down and I really hope it stays that way.

I may incorporate T again at 1mg per Ray’s advice. Not sure when but after I stabilize more and feel good I’ll consider another less extreme go at it.

I just dissolved some DHT into Vit E/EVOO at 1mg per drop. And, will continue with that in the evenings 1x a day.

I’ll report back.

How's your overall health, diet, sleep etc? If you are under a high stress load, or have inflammation, gut issues, nutrient deficiencies, etc., then any exogenous testosterone will aromatize more. I think you are right about stopping T and focusing on the basics. What problems are you trying to address by using testosterone?

I have experimented a lot over the past months with transdermal T (and DHT) in varying amounts and never got any gyno. However after a few weeks I do notice some issues e.g. flat mood and mental sluggishness. Some say it's due to crashed estrogen levels, however that wouldn't make sense in your case since you also experience high estrogen symptoms. I guess it could also be due to shutdown of LH/upstream neurosteroids or the cortisol lowering effects. I'm thinking about mixing it up with DHEA or pregnenolone to see if that helps balance things out.

 

[metamorph]

How's your overall health, diet, sleep etc? If you are under a high stress load, or have inflammation, gut issues, nutrient deficiencies, etc., then any exogenous testosterone will aromatize more. I think you are right about stopping T and focusing on the basics. What problems are you trying to address by using testosterone?

I have experimented a lot over the past months with transdermal T (and DHT) in varying amounts and never got any gyno. However after a few weeks I do notice some issues e.g. flat mood and mental sluggishness. Some say it's due to crashed estrogen levels, however that wouldn't make sense in your case since you also experience high estrogen symptoms. I guess it could also be due to shutdown of LH/upstream neurosteroids or the cortisol lowering effects. I'm thinking about mixing it up with DHEA or pregnenolone to see if that helps balance things out.

I'm on the very tail end of battling a pretty severe disability. And, I considered this as I've heard Georgi mention how Testosterone is prone to aromatize in highly inflamed/stressed people. Prior to trying T was feeling pretty good as my pain/discomfort level was between a level 1-3 versus 7-10. But, because the disability was so recent perhaps it contributed a lot to test not working well for me. My diet is very dialed in but sleep is fickle and irregular the last 2yrs.

After dialing in my thyroid for the last year+ I felt I was ready to experience the benefits of testosterone. I thought that it would give me a boost and further strengthen the remission i'm experiencing from an autoimmune condition and a skin disease.

I immediately felt the flat mood/mental sluggishness. But, as I am getting back into fitness again I definitely noticed an increased pump, hardness, definition, and etc from the T and perhaps DHT.

Yeah, high estrogen symptoms for sure. Today, I feel so much better after discontinuing the test 3 days ago. I'm positive again and the gyno irritation is subsiding. The shutdown could've been a factor alongside me aromatizing the T far too much.

I just had 1mg of DHT that I dissolved in Vit. E/EVOO with dinner. I'm extremely sensitive so perhaps I'll feel it.

The DHEA and/or pregnenolone is a great idea. I did take some preg but didn't want to take DHEA and aromatize even more.

I leaned a lesson from this. I should've at least started out with the sage's (Peat) wisdom (1mg T/DHT) and only increased slowly/steadily if it made sense.

 

[Judd Crane]

Thanks for the post. I ensured that I first dialed in Ray's recommendations for quite awhile before experimenting with the low dose test-base and DHT. My focus has been on all of those, especially thyroid.

"It’s essential to have everything else in place, thyroid, calcium, magnesium, protein, vitamin D, vitamin E, pregnenolone, DHEA; then one milligram per day can have very strong effects, quickly."RP (2018)

I definitely felt what you described with DHT. And, welcome anymore advice from you.

Is this quote in regards to T or DHT (or both)?

 

[metamorph]

Is this quote in regards to T or DHT (or both)?

This is related to T but form my understanding the same stance applies to DHT.