Gyno from Thyroid (T3 and T4)?? Tocovit Implicated?? Any quick solutions to prevent additional hardening??

[BigShoes]

Hi all,

Very sorry I have to make this gross thread.

QUESTIONS:
(1) Could T3 and T4 supplementation (10 mcg T3 and 20 mcg T4) for c. 2 weeks lead to the onset of gynecomastia symptoms?
(2) Could tocovit (olive oil carrier oil) being applied topically to the area cause irritation and gyno symptoms?

Messed up / embarrassing story:
(1) I began thyroid therapy around 2 weeks ago (cynomel and cynoplus).

(2) Around this past Sunday, c. 1 week into the therapy, I had very minor itching in my right nipple. This did not go away by the next day... On Monday, incidentally, I received an order from idealabs' tocovit (Vitamin E in olive oil), and remembered hearing from the podcasts that vitamin E is a potent anti-estrogen.

(3) I put a small amount of the oil on my nipple that morning and that evening, directly to the areola.

(4) Since then (2-3 days later), things have gotten worse and worse. I have had some browning and discharge on the areola itself (not the nipple tip, but surrounding it), that honestly looked more like clear plasma from a cut or a zit than anything else. This has since dried up. That was yesterday.

(5) Today, the itching remains and the area around the nipple tip (the very inside of the areola) is pretty irritated. Now, in the evening, the nipple is very noticeably unpleasantly tingling.

Further background:
- 32 year old male.
- Got minor gynecomastia on the right side, on-setting at age 23 (around a decade ago). This was pretty crushing, but I have learned to live with it. Me below:

- since it stabilized (23-24), I have never had another flare up. But now, just one week into thyroid therapy, the symptoms are coming back - 10 years after original onset.

Possible Theories:
(1) Thyroid is going downstream to DHEA and / or testosterone and pretty immediately being converted into more estrogen, leading to the symptoms OR somehow the thyroid is leading to a spike in prolactin (no idea how this would happen):

(2) The tocovit has actually absorbed into the skin and the carrier oil is causing all sorts of problems. I wouldn't have thought olive oil would cause such a problem, but who knows...

This is so messed up - not sure if the thyroid has absolutely nothing to do with it, and it was the vitamin E carrier oil. OR if the use of that oil is completely irrelevant and the thyroid is messing me up.

Can anyone help? What to do? Lisuride? Trying not to panic here :)

Edit: damn, Lisuride is sold out...

 

[brightside]

You can buy cabergoline from various steroid suppliers, along with AI's. Also, P5P is a popular supplement for lowering prolactin, but I wouldn't know how effective that would be in your situation.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

(1) Could T3 and T4 supplementation (10 mcg T3 and 20 mcg T4) for c. 2 weeks lead to the onset of gynecomastia symptoms?

I had the same problem as well. After supplementing both cynomel and cynoplus I got gyno on both sides. It was very noticeable. Now, I lost some weight by being on all fruit diet and it's less noticeable but pointiness is still there for the trained eye.

 

[EustaceBagge]

You can buy cabergoline from various steroid suppliers, along with AI's. Also, P5P is a popular supplement for lowering prolactin, but I wouldn't know how effective that would be in your situation.

So this is a prolactin issue? I thought T3 reduced prolactin.

 

[Momma]

What if the issue is you indeed can’t tolerate the T3 T4 and it is signaling your pituitary to overwork (to make up for your weak thyroid and low metabolism). The pituitary contains lactotroph cells that produce prolactin, the hormone that stimulates lactation.
Personally I would definitely stop the supplementation and reassess.

 

[challenger]

Wheat germ oil, which is the source material for the tocopherols in TocoVit, potentially contains some ketonic material with estrogenic activity. At least that’s what the authors theorized in this study: Estrogenic, androgenic and gonadotroph activity in wheat germ oil - PubMed (you can get access to the pdf via sci-hub)
I know Haidut has written before that TocoVit is distilled to increase the purity but as far as I’m aware this might not entirely exclude ketonic material.
The estrogenic effects should be fairly small but if you’re sensitive to it and applying directly to the nipple it’s not impossible that it could be what’s causing the issues.

 

[BigShoes]

You can buy cabergoline from various steroid suppliers, along with AI's. Also, P5P is a popular supplement for lowering prolactin, but I wouldn't know how effective that would be in your situation.

Thanks man. I'm a bit unsure about the legitimacy of these suppliers - you never know what you're getting really. I'll have a look around.

I had the same problem as well. After supplementing both cynomel and cynoplus I got gyno on both sides. It was very noticeable. Now, I lost some weight by being on all fruit diet and it's less noticeable but pointiness is still there for the trained eye.

Dude, I'm so sad to hear that. How long were you supplementing for and how much per day? Did you take anything to manage the prolactin / estrogen temporarily? I had understood (and it has been my experience) that once the gyno has hardened, there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to get rid of it other than surgery.

If I *ever* new that this was a potential side effect, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it. But I never saw anything about this being a potential result.

I spent months reading up about the safety of taking thyroid. I was very worried that thyroid replacement may shut down the body's thyroid function even more, leaving the person dependent on exogenous thyroid hormone. After much reading and discussions, I came to the conclusion that this was unlikely. The only possible additional thing I understood was that: extra thyroid hormone, without the calories to support it, may cause problems like unexpected weight loss, even worse hair fall etc. etc. - so I have been eating a bit more over the past fortnight in conjunction with the meds.

What a nightmare, dude. I'm so sorry.

So this is a prolactin issue? I thought T3 reduced prolactin.

My thoughts exactly... I've led myself down the route of "I'm hypothyroid, in a stressed state, relying on free fatty acids and not properly oxidizing glucose. I need glucose, T3/T4 etc. to kick-start my way to a healthier metabolism, increase CO2, reduce stress hormones, and thus reducing estrogen and prolactin." This is what I was told, and this is what I understood from all of Ray's writings, and from all of the podcasts.

To be experiencing this just two weeks into the therapy is just infuriating. One can't help but be left feeling betrayed and stupid.

What if the issue is you indeed can’t tolerate the T3 T4 and it is signaling your pituitary to overwork (to make up for your weak thyroid and low metabolism). The pituitary contains lactotroph cells that produce prolactin, the hormone that stimulates lactation.
Personally I would definitely stop the supplementation and reassess.

Hi Momma. What does it mean to not be able to tolerate T3 / T4? I have never heard of this. I had always been told that a big part of the thyroid therapy is that it actually allows the pituitary to calm down and *stop* overworking. I had understood that T3 is basically the key to unlocking a higher metabolism provided the cholesterol, vitamin A and glucose are there too. My cholesterol is fine / borderline high, vitamin A deficiency is extremely rare / I eat liver semi-regularly & some dairy too where I can, and am consuming plenty of sugar.

I am stopping the thyroid therapy as of today. But I don't know what there is to possibly re-assess. I spent months reading about this stuff before taking a chance with the therapy, because I was so cautious. And I spent months (2 years?) before that trying less invasive means to kick-start a more healthy thyroid and metabolism in various ways, with little success. I basically had this as my "last resort".

Wheat germ oil, which is the source material for the tocopherols in TocoVit, potentially contains some ketonic material with estrogenic activity. At least that’s what the authors theorized in this study: Estrogenic, androgenic and gonadotroph activity in wheat germ oil - PubMed (you can get access to the pdf via sci-hub)
I know Haidut has written before that TocoVit is distilled to increase the purity but as far as I’m aware this might not entirely exclude ketonic material.
The estrogenic effects should be fairly small but if you’re sensitive to it and applying directly to the nipple it’s not impossible that it could be what’s causing the issues.

Hi challenger. Good point, thanks for this. I don't want to bad-mouth his supps but they have brought me nothing but grief. I also had a really bad skin reaction on my shins to defibron that took about a month to die down... in a similar way, I suspect that the carrier oil itself has actually caused some 'chemical burn' damage to skin of the areola, which is what led to the plasma release from around the circumference. I applied it just two times at the beginning of this week, and the plasma release happened on Wednesday - it has since "dried" and not repeated at all (sorry to be gross), but has left some damaged skin (nothing major, it will heal). But I still have that unmistakable gyno itch sticking around. I need to act quickly before any additional growth occurs. Horror show.

I think I need to write a big PSA poster and put it on my wall to remind me that "not doing something is usually better than doing something" - the amount of stuff I've attempted in the name of trying to become healthy is ridiculous. Lots of people would read the OP and think I'm an idiot, but we do these things when we're desperate to be well - drastic things can appear normal when we don't see any other option.

 

[tommyg130]

Thanks man. I'm a bit unsure about the legitimacy of these suppliers - you never know what you're getting really. I'll have a look around.


Dude, I'm so sad to hear that. How long were you supplementing for and how much per day? Did you take anything to manage the prolactin / estrogen temporarily? I had understood (and it has been my experience) that once the gyno has hardened, there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to get rid of it other than surgery.

If I *ever* new that this was a potential side effect, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it. But I never saw anything about this being a potential result.

I spent months reading up about the safety of taking thyroid. I was very worried that thyroid replacement may shut down the body's thyroid function even more, leaving the person dependent on exogenous thyroid hormone. After much reading and discussions, I came to the conclusion that this was unlikely. The only possible additional thing I understood was that: extra thyroid hormone, without the calories to support it, may cause problems like unexpected weight loss, even worse hair fall etc. etc. - so I have been eating a bit more over the past fortnight in conjunction with the meds.

What a nightmare, dude. I'm so sorry.


My thoughts exactly... I've led myself down the route of "I'm hypothyroid, in a stressed state, relying on free fatty acids and not properly oxidizing glucose. I need glucose, T3/T4 etc. to kick-start my way to a healthier metabolism, increase CO2, reduce stress hormones, and thus reducing estrogen and prolactin." This is what I was told, and this is what I understood from all of Ray's writings, and from all of the podcasts.

To be experiencing this just two weeks into the therapy is just infuriating. One can't help but be left feeling betrayed and stupid.


Hi Momma. What does it mean to not be able to tolerate T3 / T4? I have never heard of this. I had always been told that a big part of the thyroid therapy is that it actually allows the pituitary to calm down and *stop* overworking. I had understood that T3 is basically the key to unlocking a higher metabolism provided the cholesterol, vitamin A and glucose are there too. My cholesterol is fine / borderline high, vitamin A deficiency is extremely rare / I eat liver semi-regularly & some dairy too where I can, and am consuming plenty of sugar.

I am stopping the thyroid therapy as of today. But I don't know what there is to possibly re-assess. I spent months reading about this stuff before taking a chance with the therapy, because I was so cautious. And I spent months (2 years?) before that trying less invasive means to kick-start a more healthy thyroid and metabolism in various ways, with little success. I basically had this as my "last resort".


Hi challenger. Good point, thanks for this. I don't want to bad-mouth his supps but they have brought me nothing but grief. I also had a really bad skin reaction on my shins to defibron that took about a month to die down... in a similar way, I suspect that the carrier oil itself has actually caused some 'chemical burn' damage to skin of the areola, which is what led to the plasma release from around the circumference. I applied it just two times at the beginning of this week, and the plasma release happened on Wednesday - it has since "dried" and not repeated at all (sorry to be gross), but has left some damaged skin (nothing major, it will heal). But I still have that unmistakable gyno itch sticking around. I need to act quickly before any additional growth occurs. Horror show.

I think I need to write a big PSA poster and put it on my wall to remind me that "not doing something is usually better than doing something" - the amount of stuff I've attempted in the name of trying to become healthy is ridiculous. Lots of people would read the OP and think I'm an idiot, but we do these things when we're desperate to be well - drastic things can appear normal when we don't see any other option.

You look good. Rly don’t see much gyno

 

[Momma]

I definitely don’t have all the answers, but you say you never heard of someone not tolerating T3T4 yet you are experiencing it yourself I believe.

I can only assume it is one of these factors?
From Danny Roddy:

…potential possibilities if thyroid therapy does not go as expected. Some of the most common road bumps seem to be:

• Vitamin D deficiency
• A diet deficient in protein or B vitamins
• A diet deficient in calcium and excessive in phosphate
• A diet deficient in carbohydrate
• A diet deficient in calories
• Ruminant liver-avoidance
• Oyster-avoidance
• Infection, which is more common in hypothyroid people
• Cholesterol deficiency (requires a lab test)

 

[tommyg130]

You look good. Rly don’t see much gyno

Also zinc. I had nothing. Zinc fixed it. Everything else worsened it. B6 and vitamin E Worsened my health Dramatically. B6 toxicity. Vitamin e stores more vitamin a in liver. Most of us already excess vitamin A. Rip some zinc

 

[BigShoes]

You look good. Rly don’t see much gyno

Thanks so much man, I appreciate that. I don't feel good though hahaha You'll see it around my right nipple (left side of the picture) - it has always been (almost) unnoticeable if it's cold like in the above photo. That's the one that I'm having the problem with now too.

I definitely don’t have all the answers, but you say you never heard of someone not tolerating T3T4 yet you are experiencing it yourself I believe.

I can only assume it is one of these factors?
From Danny Roddy:

…potential possibilities if thyroid therapy does not go as expected. Some of the most common road bumps seem to be:

• Vitamin D deficiency
• A diet deficient in protein or B vitamins
• A diet deficient in calcium and excessive in phosphate
• A diet deficient in carbohydrate
• A diet deficient in calories
• Ruminant liver-avoidance
• Oyster-avoidance
• Infection, which is more common in hypothyroid people
• Cholesterol deficiency (requires a lab test)

Hi Momma, thanks so much for this.

Yes, apparently I am. But I don't understand the mechanism by which any of this could be happening. As I mentioned, I wondered if the T3 was going downstream to DHEA and testosterone, and then being pretty immediately converted into estrogen through aromatization, leading to the symptoms. I can't even fathom how the prolactin would play into it though. I thought thyroid was supposed to reduce prolactin.

From this line of logic though, I would have thought that loads (if not, the majority) of people who jump on thyroid therapy would actually have a bad experience. Anyone considering thyroid therapy probably has a damaged metabolism in the first place, and would certainly be hypothyroid. In those cases (basically 100%), I would have thought it almost a certainty that they wouldn't have all their other ducks in a row as well.

Yes, I've been listening to Danny's stuff for a long while. It was a lot of his guidelines and videos that I had been trying for the past couple of years whilst keeping T3/T4 as my last resort. I have:
- supplemented D3 (my last blood test was low, but I have been dosing 5-10,000 daily since then)
- I eat liver, and have taken B complexes
- I have reduced meat intake to just half a pound, ensure I get enough milk and eggs (and occasionally calcium carbonate) to bring my Ca;P ratio to a reasonable space.
- I have been eating well over 300g of sugar every day for over a year, and more carbs from potatoes / in milk / incidental carbs - 400g per day is probably an average.
- I don't tend to eat oysters because it's a little tricky to get them here.
- My cholesterol total was normal, with LDL slightly elevated (this is another reason why I thought I was in a prime place to begin thyroid therapy).

Also zinc. I had nothing. Zinc fixed it. Everything else worsened it. B6 and vitamin E Worsened my health Dramatically. B6 toxicity. Vitamin e stores more vitamin a in liver. Most of us already excess vitamin A. Rip some zinc

Thanks man - I haven't supplemented zinc in years. I remember going through a period of Zinc, B6 and Magnesium (ZMA?) about 6 or 7 years ago - but haven't used zinc since because I used to eat quite a lot of meat.

I also avoided zinc because I know that excess zinc tends to lower copper. Having vitiligo, and some grey hairs on my sides already (age 32), I had thought it may be better not to deplete my copper stores any more than they already are...

 

[tommyg130]

Thanks so much man, I appreciate that. I don't feel good though hahaha You'll see it around my right nipple (left side of the picture) - it has always been (almost) unnoticeable if it's cold like in the above photo. That's the one that I'm having the problem with now too.


Hi Momma, thanks so much for this.

Yes, apparently I am. But I don't understand the mechanism by which any of this could be happening. As I mentioned, I wondered if the T3 was going downstream to DHEA and testosterone, and then being pretty immediately converted into estrogen through aromatization, leading to the symptoms. I can't even fathom how the prolactin would play into it though. I thought thyroid was supposed to reduce prolactin.

From this line of logic though, I would have thought that loads (if not, the majority) of people who jump on thyroid therapy would actually have a bad experience. Anyone considering thyroid therapy probably has a damaged metabolism in the first place, and would certainly be hypothyroid. In those cases (basically 100%), I would have thought it almost a certainty that they wouldn't have all their other ducks in a row as well.

Yes, I've been listening to Danny's stuff for a long while. It was a lot of his guidelines and videos that I had been trying for the past couple of years whilst keeping T3/T4 as my last resort. I have:
- supplemented D3 (my last blood test was low, but I have been dosing 5-10,000 daily since then)
- I eat liver, and have taken B complexes
- I have reduced meat intake to just half a pound, ensure I get enough milk and eggs (and occasionally calcium carbonate) to bring my Ca;P ratio to a reasonable space.
- I have been eating well over 300g of sugar every day for over a year, and more carbs from potatoes / in milk / incidental carbs - 400g per day is probably an average.
- I don't tend to eat oysters because it's a little tricky to get them here.
- My cholesterol total was normal, with LDL slightly elevated (this is another reason why I thought I was in a prime place to begin thyroid therapy).


Thanks man - I haven't supplemented zinc in years. I remember going through a period of Zinc, B6 and Magnesium (ZMA?) about 6 or 7 years ago - but haven't used zinc since because I used to eat quite a lot of meat.

I also avoided zinc because I know that excess zinc tends to lower copper. Having vitiligo, and some grey hairs on my sides already (age 32), I had thought it may be better not to deplete my copper stores any more than they already are...

Zinc depleting copper is a morley robbins agenda. My copper hasn’t lowered at all, and became more bioavailable since zinc. Jason hommel who is the high copper guy is taking over 100mg copper(absurd) has gray hair. I was eating 2lbs of beef and extremely zinc defecient. Copper is a pysop imo.. Granted I had a ton of mercury fillings so maybe my need was quite high. Lot of fear mongering about zinc for some reason. I also didn’t retain magnesium and calcium until I upped my zinc. Zinc fixed thst issue as well. As well as my b6 toxicity. And my vitamin A excess to do zincs role in retinol binding protein.

I’m very biased towards zinc as it basically single handedly brought me from a 5% shell of a human to about 70%.

Back to the gyno it literally got rid of my gyno in a month. Can’t say it will for you, but it did for me lol. Zinc is also the driver in t4 to t3 conversion.

Calcium is also a pysopppppp

 

[Momma]

I am not as familiar or as versed as you are for sure. I have to believe the mechanism is simply a bank withdrawal with not enough to cover. Or the gas petal with an empty tank analogy.
Meaning eat more? Eat more of a surplus to support the supplementation.
Someone yesterday posted something like this here. Let me see if i can find it.


Here it is. Maybe something relevant for you.

Weight gain when trying to heal. Is it what you think?

Edited for clarity: “Stress hormones will desensitize the insulin receptor. From birth to now, most of us have had some sort of stress that has shaped our experience of our health. With chronic stress comes many things, all of which desensitizes the insulin receptor.” “…when you...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Risingfire]

Hi all,

Very sorry I have to make this gross thread.

QUESTIONS:
(1) Could T3 and T4 supplementation (10 mcg T3 and 20 mcg T4) for c. 2 weeks lead to the onset of gynecomastia symptoms?
(2) Could tocovit (olive oil carrier oil) being applied topically to the area cause irritation and gyno symptoms?

Messed up / embarrassing story:
(1) I began thyroid therapy around 2 weeks ago (cynomel and cynoplus).

(2) Around this past Sunday, c. 1 week into the therapy, I had very minor itching in my right nipple. This did not go away by the next day... On Monday, incidentally, I received an order from idealabs' tocovit (Vitamin E in olive oil), and remembered hearing from the podcasts that vitamin E is a potent anti-estrogen.

(3) I put a small amount of the oil on my nipple that morning and that evening, directly to the areola.

(4) Since then (2-3 days later), things have gotten worse and worse. I have had some browning and discharge on the areola itself (not the nipple tip, but surrounding it), that honestly looked more like clear plasma from a cut or a zit than anything else. This has since dried up. That was yesterday.

(5) Today, the itching remains and the area around the nipple tip (the very inside of the areola) is pretty irritated. Now, in the evening, the nipple is very noticeably unpleasantly tingling.

Further background:
- 32 year old male.
- Got minor gynecomastia on the right side, on-setting at age 23 (around a decade ago). This was pretty crushing, but I have learned to live with it. Me below:

View attachment 48576
- since it stabilized (23-24), I have never had another flare up. But now, just one week into thyroid therapy, the symptoms are coming back - 10 years after original onset.

Possible Theories:
(1) Thyroid is going downstream to DHEA and / or testosterone and pretty immediately being converted into more estrogen, leading to the symptoms OR somehow the thyroid is leading to a spike in prolactin (no idea how this would happen):
View attachment 48577
(2) The tocovit has actually absorbed into the skin and the carrier oil is causing all sorts of problems. I wouldn't have thought olive oil would cause such a problem, but who knows...

This is so messed up - not sure if the thyroid has absolutely nothing to do with it, and it was the vitamin E carrier oil. OR if the use of that oil is completely irrelevant and the thyroid is messing me up.

Can anyone help? What to do? Lisuride? Trying not to panic here :)

Edit: damn, Lisuride is sold out...

Thyroid is anti-estrogenic so that's unlikely.

 

[challenger]

I don't want to bad-mouth his supps but they have brought me nothing but grief. I also had a really bad skin reaction on my shins to defibron that took about a month to die down... in a similar way, I suspect that the carrier oil itself has actually caused some 'chemical burn' damage to skin of the areola, which is what led to the plasma release from around the circumference. I applied it just two times at the beginning of this week, and the plasma release happened on Wednesday - it has since "dried" and not repeated at all (sorry to be gross), but has left some damaged skin (nothing major, it will heal). But I still have that unmistakable gyno itch sticking around. I need to act quickly before any additional growth occurs. Horror show.

Individual reactivity is hard to account for. This forum in particular seems to host a disproportionate amount of people who react very strongly to miniscule amounts of various substances. IdeaLabs products aren't harmless but the same is typically true for any substance with notable effects. Nothing is free outside of Eden.
To perhaps lessens your worries, it is very possible that what you're experiencing currently is just temporary swelling of the mammary glands and does not constitute true glandular growth. Any real growth, in the event that it had occurred, would also probably be negligible.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Dude, I'm so sad to hear that. How long were you supplementing for and how much per day? Did you take anything to manage the prolactin / estrogen temporarily? I had understood (and it has been my experience) that once the gyno has hardened, there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to get rid of it other than surgery.

Maybe a bit over 2 months. 1 month 1/4 cynomel. The other month 1/4 cynoplus.
Yeah, fortunately I don't have any hard lump or tissue underneath.

If I *ever* new that this was a potential side effect, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it. But I never saw anything about this being a potential result.

I never heard it as well. Ray Peat never mentioned something like this could happen and I only saw one guy had similar experience on this forum.

 

[BigShoes]

Zinc depleting copper is a morley robbins agenda. My copper hasn’t lowered at all, and became more bioavailable since zinc. Jason hommel who is the high copper guy is taking over 100mg copper(absurd) has gray hair. I was eating 2lbs of beef and extremely zinc defecient. Copper is a pysop imo.. Granted I had a ton of mercury fillings so maybe my need was quite high. Lot of fear mongering about zinc for some reason. I also didn’t retain magnesium and calcium until I upped my zinc. Zinc fixed thst issue as well. As well as my b6 toxicity. And my vitamin A excess to do zincs role in retinol binding protein.

I’m very biased towards zinc as it basically single handedly brought me from a 5% shell of a human to about 70%.

Back to the gyno it literally got rid of my gyno in a month. Can’t say it will for you, but it did for me lol. Zinc is also the driver in t4 to t3 conversion.

Calcium is also a pysopppppp

I'm open to your ideas, but this is completely counter to a lot of things I've already been told - Peat's work included (not that I've gotten far with this stuff hahaha)

Just to unpack:
- How much zinc per day would you recommend? Was it bound to Glycinate?
- I had honestly heard from elsewhere *years* ago (probably Frank Tufano or some other carnivore oddball that I used to listen to around 5 years back) that zinc and copper compete quite heavily in the body. Although I haven't examined the mechanism as to why this would happen.
- B6 toxicity? Vitamin A excess? Do you follow Grant Generoux / Garret Smith's approach? That's another thing very counter to Peat's ideas. I can't comment either way.
- That sounds f'n awesome RE: the zinc healing you. I also feel like 5% of a human - less of a shell though, and more of a husk
- was your gyno a hard lump?? Or just nipple puffiness?? Regardless, that's very exciting to read, and I'm really happy for you.
- Calcium is a psy-op? Honestly calcium has been the hardest part of Peat's writings for me to swallow (quite literally... too much milk gives me terrible constipation). I don't see how calcium can be as important as they say, since there is no appreciable source of calcium in non-fortified foods besides dairy (and possibly eggs). I don't think there is any way to get 1.5g of calcium per day without consuming dairy - not without supps or eating way too many eggs. Green leaves won't do it, because the calcium ions in them are bound to oxalates - that's a great way to get a kidney stone. That said, Peat's essays on calcification, and low calcium actually being the CAUSE of elevated parathyroid hormone, elevated prolactin and increased fibrosis and calcification', was actually very convincing... So I'm unsure what to believe.

It's awesome that you're challenging this stuff and bringing other perspectives. I'm very open to it.

I am not as familiar or as versed as you are for sure. I have to believe the mechanism is simply a bank withdrawal with not enough to cover. Or the gas petal with an empty tank analogy.
Meaning eat more? Eat more of a surplus to support the supplementation.
Someone yesterday posted something like this here. Let me see if i can find it.


Here it is. Maybe something relevant for you.

Weight gain when trying to heal. Is it what you think?

Edited for clarity: “Stress hormones will desensitize the insulin receptor. From birth to now, most of us have had some sort of stress that has shaped our experience of our health. With chronic stress comes many things, all of which desensitizes the insulin receptor.” “…when you...

raypeatforum.com

Thanks for this again. Yes, I saw that thread yesterday from @Peatful . She's pretty amazing. I think you're pretty amazing too.

Thyroid is anti-estrogenic so that's unlikely.

Hey @Risingfire - this was exactly what I thought too. I was thinking that jumping on just a small dose of thyroid (10 mcg T3 and 20mcg T4 i.e. 1 grain worth of T3 and half a grain of T4) that I would slowly start to feel better again over the course of the next month. Then this happened literally a week later. Could be a coincidence (as I say, I got mild gyno at age 23 c. 10 years ago), but somehow I doubt it. The older I get, the less I believe in coincidences.

As I say, my only theory was that possibly thyroid was going downstream to more testosterone / DHEA, and that it was pretty quickly being aromatized into estrogen due to a bad internal environment. But it could be a prolactin issue which, as I say, I don't see how thyroid could *raise* prolactin by itself. Unless it's just as @Momma said that the system is already stressed, and putting more thyroid in just makes things worse when one can't handle it... but this seems counter-intuitive to me.

Individual reactivity is hard to account for. This forum in particular seems to host a disproportionate amount of people who react very strongly to miniscule amounts of various substances. IdeaLabs products aren't harmless but the same is typically true for any substance with notable effects. Nothing is free outside of Eden.
To perhaps lessens your worries, it is very possible that what you're experiencing currently is just temporary swelling of the mammary glands and does not constitute true glandular growth. Any real growth, in the event that it had occurred, would also probably be negligible.

Thanks challenger. Yes, you're probably correct, but I don't want to chance it. The gyno that I got at age 23 could have been avoided if I'd taken action as soon as I noticed the tenderness - but I didn't understand what was going on at the time... It wasn't til 3-4 months later that I finally got an appointment with a private endocrinologist who was willing to prescribe raloxifene (a SERM). In hindsight, I probably should not have taken it, who knows what it could have done... but it did nothing - the gland had already hardened at that point.

Haha yes you're right about this forum and strong reactions to simple substances... we're a funny bunch. I read some guy saying he could barely move for a month after taking 5000 IU of D3 ... I have to take what he said at face value, but that seems extremely uncommon. This symptom I am experiencing from the thyroid may be extremely uncommon and another weird reaction to throw on the pile of odd stories on this forum (no offence everyone, I am one with the weirdness). But these symptoms are very real to me, and pretty worrying. Breasts are great on women, I don't want a pair of my own though.

Maybe a bit over 2 months. 1 month 1/4 cynomel. The other month 1/4 cynoplus.
Yeah, fortunately I don't have any hard lump or tissue underneath.

I never heard it as well. Ray Peat never mentioned something like this could happen and I only saw one guy had similar experience on this forum.

Oh wow that's interesting. I'd say if there's no hard lump there dude then you can reverse that pretty well with a prolactin suppressor. I'm hesitant to recommend anything in case you have a crazy reaction (as above^) but you're not in that bad of a spot.

That's also a little bit more thyroid than I was on (13.75 mcg T3 and 30mcg T4 by my calculations). and for a bit longer. I've been taking 1/6 of a cynomel and 1/6 of cynoplus for just two weeks (c. 10 T3 and 20 T4). It took one week before this reaction started, and it's now much more noticeable by the end of week two. I've stopped using for now.

I did a quick search on the forum and saw that gorillahead had a similar reaction to NDT, and abc123 had that reaction to T4 levothyroxine.

 

[metamorph]

Zinc depleting copper is a morley robbins agenda. My copper hasn’t lowered at all, and became more bioavailable since zinc. Jason hommel who is the high copper guy is taking over 100mg copper(absurd) has gray hair. I was eating 2lbs of beef and extremely zinc defecient. Copper is a pysop imo.. Granted I had a ton of mercury fillings so maybe my need was quite high. Lot of fear mongering about zinc for some reason. I also didn’t retain magnesium and calcium until I upped my zinc. Zinc fixed thst issue as well. As well as my b6 toxicity. And my vitamin A excess to do zincs role in retinol binding protein.

I’m very biased towards zinc as it basically single handedly brought me from a 5% shell of a human to about 70%.

Back to the gyno it literally got rid of my gyno in a month. Can’t say it will for you, but it did for me lol. Zinc is also the driver in t4 to t3 conversion.

Calcium is also a pysopppppp

Did you just up zinc rich foods or did you find an optimal zinc supplement? Any recommendations?

 

[EustaceBagge]

It seems the people that get issues also supplement T4. Who knows maybe the T4 converts to RT3, blocking the activity of T3 in the body thus increasing prolactin?

Maybe try T3 only for a while?

 

[BigShoes]

It seems the people that get issues also supplement T4. Who knows maybe the T4 converts to RT3, blocking the activity of T3 in the body thus increasing prolactin?

Maybe try T3 only for a while?

Hey man. Great point! I had actually theorized that this could be happening myself!

However, I had come to understand that T3 itself actually supports the conversion of more T4 -> T3 rather than reverse T3, which was partly why I went with the 2:1 ratio in the first place, rather than the higher 4:1 ratio of NDT / cynoplus by itself (also because I did not want to jump straight on 40mcg of T4, but felt that 5mcg of T3 was so little that it was probably pointless).

But still, you could be correct. The only thing with T3 only is that it's half-life is so short... like a couple of hours or so. Difficult to use as a standalone therapy, especially when I feel this bad.