Took Pregnenolone, And Now Acne/period Issues Have Returned

[nattyjules]

Hi everyone,

I had blood work done a few months ago, confirmed hypothyroidism. I tried taking NDT, but wasn't happy with the results. I started on cynoplus and have noticed a huge difference to my symptoms (most notably, my periods are more regular and my cystic acne calmed down and *almost* disappeared - along with taking Progest-E).

However, I'm still plagued by fatigue. I get around 9 hours of sleep every night, but am always tired. So I started taking pregnenolone about 4 weeks ago - and now my acne has returned, my cycle length was shorter (and ovulation tests showed I ovulated earlier in my cycle) and my hair has started to fall out.

I stopped taking it a week ago, but the acne is still appearing. I understand that the pregnenolone was being converted into androgens, which is why the acne and period issues have returned.

It's very frustrating. I'm tempted to buy some spironolactone, but I'm worried that combined with the Progest-E it will actually go against my efforts to improve my thyroid function (because of the reduced ability to hold onto salt).

I tried pregnenolone last year too (before I took cynoplus) and had the same problem - you'd think I'd learn by now!

 

[johns74]

Did you take a little pregnenolone (e.g., 10 mg), or a lot (e.g., 100 mg)?

If you took a lot, try taking a little.

If you took a little, try taking a lot.

If you haven't done it, it might be good to check your iron stores.

 

[nattyjules]

Recently I took 10mg initially, and then went up to 20mg after 2 weeks.

Last year I started on 50mg and then went up to 100mg after 2 weeks.

Both times have yielded the same results.

Perhaps it's too stimulating for me?

I did wonder if there is a physiological reason for my hypothalamus/pituitary gland to choose to create excess androgens? Or is it possibly that the balance of hormones isn't right? So if my body is creating more androgens from pregnenolone, it's lacking in the androgen antagonisers?

 

[jyb]

I tried pregnenolone last year too (before I took cynoplus) and had the same problem - you'd think I'd learn by now!

There isn't anything strange with you in that respect - many supplements just don't work out well for many. It's good to be cautious.

 

[ilovethesea]

Are you still taking the Cynoplus? Have you tried raising dose? The fatigue sounds like low thyroid symptoms might not be resolved yet. More T3 should clear acne as well.

(It also sounds like the NDT you tried was just weak in comparison... Cynoplus has very strong T3, but I've found the strength of other thyroid meds varies widely.)

Why do you need the pregnenolone if you're taking Progest E? I would think now that you stopped taking it the acne should clear up in a few weeks.

But I'm curious about spiro as well. I can't get prescribed enough T3, so I was thinking maybe 25mg of spironolactone could be enough to blunt the minor breakouts I started getting again, now that I take 1/2 the thyroid I used to. For me it is directly correlated with the rise in estrogen/drop in thyroid from day 14-28 of my cycle. Grossman T3 fixed it like a dream, so sad we can't get that anymore....

 

[answersfound]

This is a good thing. Metabolism is trying to increase. but it's just one part of the puzzle. you may want to make sure you are getting enough fat soluble vitamins, specifically vitamin A. that should be helpful.

 

[nattyjules]

Are you still taking the Cynoplus? Have you tried raising dose? The fatigue sounds like low thyroid symptoms might not be resolved yet. More T3 should clear acne as well.

(It also sounds like the NDT you tried was just weak in comparison... Cynoplus has very strong T3, but I've found the strength of other thyroid meds varies widely.)

Why do you need the pregnenolone if you're taking Progest E? I would think now that you stopped taking it the acne should clear up in a few weeks.

But I'm curious about spiro as well. I can't get prescribed enough T3, so I was thinking maybe 25mg of spironolactone could be enough to blunt the minor breakouts I started getting again, now that I take 1/2 the thyroid I used to. For me it is directly correlated with the rise in estrogen/drop in thyroid from day 14-28 of my cycle. Grossman T3 fixed it like a dream, so sad we can't get that anymore....

I am still taking the Cynoplus - on 1.5 tablets at the moment (1 tablet in the morning and 1/2 tablet at night) - temps have hugely improved (around 97.70 in the first half of my cycle and around 98.20 in the second half). I've been hesitant to keep upping the dose as I've not been able to find any of RP's information which recommends increasing the dose?

I've just ordered some T3 only and will try taking that throughout the day to see if it helps too.

When I take pregnenolone I get a huge boost of energy, which is great! I feel happy and clear headed too, which is why it's so appealing. Unfortunately, the side effects of acne and disturbed menstrual cycles at any dosage just aren't worth it.

However, the acne has already started to clear up thank goodness! I've been battling with it for over 10 years.

I'm keen on spiro too - except I think that if I am no longer taking pregnenolone, which has been converting into androgens, then I don't need anti-androgen medication?

 

[nattyjules]

This is a good thing. Metabolism is trying to increase. but it's just one part of the puzzle. you may want to make sure you are getting enough fat soluble vitamins, specifically vitamin A. that should be helpful.

Thanks lookingforanswers :) I do take 25000iu daily (applied to my skin) - I can't stomach liver though.

 

[ilovethesea]

I am still taking the Cynoplus - on 1.5 tablets at the moment (1 tablet in the morning and 1/2 tablet at night) - temps have hugely improved (around 97.70 in the first half of my cycle and around 98.20 in the second half). I've been hesitant to keep upping the dose as I've not been able to find any of RP's information which recommends increasing the dose?

I've just ordered some T3 only and will try taking that throughout the day to see if it helps too.

When I take pregnenolone I get a huge boost of energy, which is great! I feel happy and clear headed too, which is why it's so appealing. Unfortunately, the side effects of acne and disturbed menstrual cycles at any dosage just aren't worth it.

However, the acne has already started to clear up thank goodness! I've been battling with it for over 10 years.

I'm keen on spiro too - except I think that if I am no longer taking pregnenolone, which has been converting into androgens, then I don't need anti-androgen medication?

That's great it is clearing!

In the Broda Barnes book there are dosing guidelines.

Starting dose: The size of a proper starting dose of thyroid will vary with the age and size of the patient. Usually a child under 3 years will not need more than one-quarter grain daily. By the age of six, one-half grain may be used in the beginning. A teenager or adult may safely be started on one grain daily. For a particularly large man or woman, two grains may be used - but no more than that at the beginning.
Further dosage : The starting dosage should be maintained for about two months. After that, if necessary, the dosage may be increased.
1 grain = 60 mg = 1/2 a Cynoplus.

Which T3 did you order?

What makes pregnenolone convert into androgens in some people and not in others? Or does it always convert? I never noticed any bad effects, but I was only taking 100mg and not every day.

 

[ilovethesea]

Regarding: pregnenolone and excess androgens in women

5magicbeans wrote:
I emailed RP regarding pregnenolone and excess androgens in women:


Ray Peat wrote:
"Low thyroid and high estrogen, resulting from various things such as high PUFA, low nutrient diet, interfere with progesterone synthesis, and the adrenals compensate, producing androgens instead. Pregnenolone helps to lower adrenal androgens, progesterone can be used topically on some hairy areas."

Found this here viewtopic.php?t=1035&start=80

 

[nattyjules]

Regarding: pregnenolone and excess androgens in women

5magicbeans wrote:
I emailed RP regarding pregnenolone and excess androgens in women:


Ray Peat wrote:
"Low thyroid and high estrogen, resulting from various things such as high PUFA, low nutrient diet, interfere with progesterone synthesis, and the adrenals compensate, producing androgens instead. Pregnenolone helps to lower adrenal androgens, progesterone can be used topically on some hairy areas."

Found this here viewtopic.php?t=1035&start=80

That's really interesting! It makes me think that my thyroid function still isn't where it should be then, although if pregnenolone helps to lower adrenal androgens, why did my acne / menstrual issues return from taking it?

Very confusing.

 

[nattyjules]

That's great it is clearing!

In the Broda Barnes book there are dosing guidelines.

Starting dose: The size of a proper starting dose of thyroid will vary with the age and size of the patient. Usually a child under 3 years will not need more than one-quarter grain daily. By the age of six, one-half grain may be used in the beginning. A teenager or adult may safely be started on one grain daily. For a particularly large man or woman, two grains may be used - but no more than that at the beginning.
Further dosage : The starting dosage should be maintained for about two months. After that, if necessary, the dosage may be increased.
1 grain = 60 mg = 1/2 a Cynoplus.

Which T3 did you order?

What makes pregnenolone convert into androgens in some people and not in others? Or does it always convert? I never noticed any bad effects, but I was only taking 100mg and not every day.

I started on 1/2 cynoplus and then moved up to a whole one after 6 weeks, and then 6 weeks after that I increased to 1.5 tablets.

Would I be right in guessing that I can increase by 1/2 tablet every 2 months, according to Broda Barnes' guidelines?

I wouldn't say I'm large but I am tall - perhaps I should increase to 2 tablets and see how I feel?

I ordered the Triyotex brand (Spanish version of Cytomel) 75mcg caps.

 

[sweetpeat]

1 grain = 60 mg = 1/2 a Cynoplus.

ilovethesea, I think you're confusing mg with mcg. Broda Barnes would have been using dessicated thyroid (NDT), and you're right that one grain=60mg. One grain simply signifies the size of the NDT tablet, which includes any fillers used as well as the thyroid hormones. What's important is how much t4 and t3 are contained within that tablet. In the case of NDT, one grain is usually around 36mcg t4 and 9mcg t3.

Cynoplus is synthetic t4 and t3. It's not measured in grains, but by how much thyroid hormone it contains, which is 120mcg t4 and 30mcg t3for a whole tablet. Over three times as much hormones as one NDT. So, half of a Cynoplus would be 60mcg t4. This is not the same as one grain of NDT (a 60mg tablet). Taking half of a cynoplus would more be equivalent to 1.5 grains NDT.

nattyjules, I'm just mentioning this to let you know that you may be increasing faster than you realize, certainly faster than Broda Barnes suggests, and to just be aware of that. If you think you're getting close to optimum dosing, you may want to increase by ¼ tablet, or even less.

 

[ilovethesea]

1 grain = 60 mg = 1/2 a Cynoplus.

ilovethesea, I think you're confusing mg with mcg. Broda Barnes would have been using dessicated thyroid (NDT), and you're right that one grain=60mg. One grain simply signifies the size of the NDT tablet, which includes any fillers used as well as the thyroid hormones. What's important is how much t4 and t3 are contained within that tablet. In the case of NDT, one grain is usually around 36mcg t4 and 9mcg t3.

Cynoplus is synthetic t4 and t3. It's not measured in grains, but by how much thyroid hormone it contains, which is 120mcg t4 and 30mcg t3for a whole tablet. Over three times as much hormones as one NDT. So, half of a Cynoplus would be 60mcg t4. This is not the same as one grain of NDT (a 60mg tablet). Taking half of a cynoplus would more be equivalent to 1.5 grains NDT.

nattyjules, I'm just mentioning this to let you know that you may be increasing faster than you realize, certainly faster than Broda Barnes suggests, and to just be aware of that. If you think you're getting close to optimum dosing, you may want to increase by ¼ tablet, or even less.

Woops, that should have said 1/4 Cynoplus. My math's based on Erfa. one 60mg has 35mcg T4 and 8mcg T3 so multiply by 4 = 140 mcg T4, 32mcg T3. Erfa just has a bit more T4, but it's usually the T3 people have trouble tolerating when they are increasing.

Obviously all of this is up to the individual... if you can't tolerate 1/4, take 1/8 or whatever. Or try even smaller increments of T3 by cutting up a Cytomel. Although I don't think that method will be too accurate now since we can't get Grossman, everything else is very weak.

 

[ilovethesea]

Regarding: pregnenolone and excess androgens in women

5magicbeans wrote:
I emailed RP regarding pregnenolone and excess androgens in women:


Ray Peat wrote:
"Low thyroid and high estrogen, resulting from various things such as high PUFA, low nutrient diet, interfere with progesterone synthesis, and the adrenals compensate, producing androgens instead. Pregnenolone helps to lower adrenal androgens, progesterone can be used topically on some hairy areas."

Found this here viewtopic.php?t=1035&start=80

That's really interesting! It makes me think that my thyroid function still isn't where it should be then, although if pregnenolone helps to lower adrenal androgens, why did my acne / menstrual issues return from taking it?

Very confusing.

Yeah I am confused now. Did you have a source saying pregnenolone can convert to androgens, because based on this Ray quote it doesn't sound like it? Would it be more correct to say your adrenals are compensating for low thyroid by producing androgen hormones - nothing to do with pregnenolone?

I wonder if the acne issues just came from the pregnenolone raising metabolism without enough A. Do you eat lots of vitamin A?

I don't know where shorter cycles fit in.

 

[ilovethesea]

I'm wondering now if I should start taking more pregnenolone instead of stopping it!

I have been getting PMS acne ever since I had to reduce my T3 dose couple months back.

I know there must be some androgenic element because I took spironolactone in the past and it gave me perfect skin.

I just found this thread... http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/ ... -palmetto/

 

[sweetpeat]

A couple of things, nattyjules. I just noticed you said you were taking a whole cynoplus in the morning and a half at night. Some people, myself included, get a better metabolic response by splitting the cynoplus into smaller pieces. But this means that you have to take it more often in order to get the same dosage. The reason for this is that our bodies only produce about 5mcg t3 per hour. When you take a whole cynoplus at once, which would contain 30mcg t3, you're taking more than is physiologically useful and Peat says anything more than 5 mcg gets inactivated. Probably converted to reverse t3. It isn't stored in your body until you need it, like t4. You may even find you need less cynoplus overall since you're keeping more of the t3 active by taking smaller doses. I personally was amazed at how much this simple thing helped me; it seems counter-intuitive to make the doses smaller.

I wish I had answers for your pregnenolone dilemma. It's something I've had mixed results with too. I will say that I think shorter cycles usually signify too high estrogen and/or too low progesterone. So it seems like the pregnenolone is raising estrogen and also possibly prolactin (based on your hair loss). It's supposed to lower stress hormones, but maybe that doesn't work for people with low thyroid who are probably running on stress hormones. I'm just hypothesizing though.

 

[nattyjules]

Yeah I am confused now. Did you have a source saying pregnenolone can convert to androgens, because based on this Ray quote it doesn't sound like it? Would it be more correct to say your adrenals are compensating for low thyroid by producing androgen hormones - nothing to do with pregnenolone?

I wonder if the acne issues just came from the pregnenolone raising metabolism without enough A. Do you eat lots of vitamin A?

I don't know where shorter cycles fit in.

I got this from Wikipedia (not exactly reliable, but it was the first I found):

It's only when I take pregnenolone that I get acne and shorter cycles (which is almost taking me back to my pre-cynoplus days) - so looking at the image above, it would seem that my body is converting DHEA into androgens/estrogen - but my body doesn't have enough of the anti androgen / estrogen antagonisers.

Even with taking 15 drops of Progest-E per day, the acne / cycles was still prevalent.

I take 25000iu of Vit. A applied directly to my skin.

I do still think that there is a pituitary / hypothalamus element involved (which I understand control the production of hormones) which favours converting pregnenolone into DHEA and then androgens.

 

[answersfound]

Ah yes the classic pregnenolone dilemma. "But Ray says people have taken it up to 500 and 1000 mg" I hear you asking. "Why does it make me angry?" Pregnenolone is magic. It really is. Do I know why it works sometimes and why it does not? No. But it here is what I have found to be the trick. Only take pregnenolone while on Benadryl or Cyproheptadine. The anticholinergic effect of these drugs will prevent the bad reactions.

 

[nattyjules]

Ah yes the classic pregnenolone dilemma. "But Ray says people have taken it up to 500 and 1000 mg" I hear you asking. "Why does it make me angry?" Pregnenolone is magic. It really is. Do I know why it works sometimes and why it does not? No. But it here is what I have found to be the trick. Only take pregnenolone while on Benadryl or Cyproheptadine. The anticholinergic effect of these drugs will prevent the bad reactions.

Thank you answersfound!

I recently bought cyproheptadine (periactin) and have started on 1mg in the evenings. Is this enough to take with say, 10mg of pregnenolone?

Have you experienced any correlation with the amount of cyproheptadine needed and amount of pregnenolone taken?