Acne And Progesterone/Estrogen

Mad

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Mar 13, 2017
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I have suffered from cystic acne for five years now.
Things I've been thinking about lately:
I have read a lot about estrogen dominance, how it is common, and how it can be the cause of acne. After reading a lot on thelovevitamin.com I decided to take estroblock a couple years ago which rids the body of excess estrogen and completely clears some people's acne. It made mine even worse. So I did a month long saliva hormone panel test (yes, should have done this first). Found that my estrogen is EXTREMELY low, as in barely registering and it listed me as post menopausal. I was 23. My progesterone was in the normal to low range.
Since that test and also reading some of Ray's articles about the importance of progesterone with thyroid, I decided to try progest e. Haven't really noticed a huge difference once I got past the initial doses (placebo effect maybe).
Does anyone think raising estrogen (possibly via herbs such as black cohosh) could actually benefit me? I know we want estrogen low, but do we want it nearly non existent? Is taking progest e not a good idea for me since I already have a higher balance of progesterone to estrogen?
 

Vida

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Aug 10, 2016
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Hi Mad,
High androgens may be causing your cystic acne? Honestly dont get this idea that estrogen causes acne in women, what you want is a balance between sex hormones and not flatlined estrogen levels.
 
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DuggaDugga

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Orion

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So I did a month long saliva hormone panel test (yes, should have done this first). Found that my estrogen is EXTREMELY low, as in barely registering and it listed me as post menopausal.

RP talks more about estrogen that is in storage, not blood or saliva, you could potentially have very high estrogen load.

What are your basal temps and pulse? Record when waking after breakfast and lunch, this will point to hypo and stress hormone levels.


Things that help acne and most likely help sluggish liver(build up of unsaturated fat, estrogen overload):

Lean liver: caffeine, K2, taurine, very low PUFA
Increase progesterone: vitamin A, cholesterol, thyroid, caffeine
Lower estrogen and serotonin: vitamin A/E/K, sunlight, cooked mushroom/raw carrot/bamboo shoots/Activated charcoal, avoid starches, cyprohepdatine
Block FFA oxidation: B3 and Aspirin
Increase glucose oxidation: B1
Lower prolactin(decease oil/sebum production): lots of calcium(dairy, eggshell), lots of canning salt and B6
Help liver detox: B2
Adequate protein: preferable from dairy, milk, cheese at least 100g/day
Adequate calories: Mostly carbs(dried/cooked/ripe/jams/juices of fruit), and some saturated fat
Eating liver: all the B vitamins, zinc, selenium, copper...

Stored PUFA, that is released during stress, blocks transthyretin (protein that transports vitamin A and thyroid), this reduces progesterone and promotes estrogen dominance.

PUFA is good at aromatizing testosterone to estrogen, in female and males. We want higher progesterone/testosterone ratio to estrogen.
 
OP
M

Mad

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Mar 13, 2017
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159
Are you experiencing a normal menstrual cycle? I think it is fair to have reservations regarding the accuracy of saliva tests for measuring hormones:
http://www.hormonebalance.org/images/documents/Hagen 03 Reliability of Salivary Test JAPA.pdf
Was your concerns with cystic acne the primary catalyst to you investigating your hormones? Or were their concurrent symptoms that led you to investigate?

Yes I am having a normal cycle. About 6 years ago I was not having a cycle at all for a while - I was a runner and was underfed.
But now it is pretty regular within a few days of consistency.
Yes, the acne is what caused me to look into hormones in the first place.
 
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Mad

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you could potentially have very high estrogen load
Would the estroblock a couple of years ago not have helped in that case, though? It made my acne much much worse and I took it for several months.

What are your basal temps and pulse? Record when waking after breakfast and lunch, this will point to hypo and stress hormone levels.
I'm sure I've still got issues with stress hormones. Before working on my thyroid, I would get extremely cold after eating a meal. My body was happy to finally have some food!
Right now, my waking temps are usually good (over 98.0) but it will drop after breakfast and other meals. Unless I'm in a very warm environment all day, temps are usually below 98.0 all day. Pulse is decent, depending on the day. About 75-90.

Lean liver: caffeine, K2, taurine, very low PUFA
Increase progesterone: vitamin A, cholesterol, thyroid, caffeine
Lower estrogen and serotonin: vitamin A/E/K, sunlight, cooked mushroom/raw carrot/bamboo shoots/Activated charcoal, avoid starches, cyprohepdatine
Block FFA oxidation: B3 and Aspirin
Increase glucose oxidation: B1
Lower prolactin(decease oil/sebum production): lots of calcium(dairy, eggshell), lots of canning salt and B6
Help liver detox: B2
Adequate protein: preferable from dairy, milk, cheese at least 100g/day
Adequate calories: Mostly carbs(dried/cooked/ripe/jams/juices of fruit), and some saturated fat
Eating liver: all the B vitamins, zinc, selenium, copper...
I had actually saved your post on acne a few months back, and was reading over it again recently: Acne - Sebum Reduction
I am already doing high dose Vitamin A palmitate for the past several weeks (200K IU). Seen improvements but not fully cleared. I am also starting to work on increasing caffeine, taking taurine (1mg/day), getting sunlight daily if possible, taking B vitamin complex (Energin) few times a week. I plan on ordering Vitamin K soon.
BTW, that post is really helpful and I'm grateful that you've actually done updates consistently and been candid with what worked and what you thought was working but wasn't.
 

Orion

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Oct 23, 2015
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858
Search DIM on the forum, it is what is in Estroblock, I do not think it is very helpful.

DIM Is A Potent Androgen Antagonist And Estrogen Agonist

Sounds like your pulse/temps are heading in the right direction.

Ray Peat, PhD on Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse, and TSH – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Here is what I think about vitamin A now, if you are overloaded with PUFA or sluggish liver/hypo, doing higher amounts of A will make you more hypo, since PUFA already blocking vitamin A transport and the massive amounts of vitamin A now competing for the transport protein = thyroid is getting blocked. Best try lower amounts while reducing PUFA intake greatly. Try 2500IU to 5000IU on topically on foot, and increase if temps and pulse and sleep are good.

Here is what has help my skin the most:
Trying to consume almost zero fat and zero starch, PUFA depletion approach, done this for 6 months now.
Leaning out liver(reducing fat overload and fibrosis) with caffeine and K2 and using B3 and B1 to halt FFA oxidation, lactate and increase glucose oxidation. Haidut's Defibron appears to be helping here as well.

Search @theLaw recent posts, good info on starting the liver caffeine cleanse, supported by studies(Haiduts post). Using B3 and aspirin can be very tricking for Hypo persons, until the liver is functioning well.

Most of my experiments point me in the direction that elevated estrogen/cortisol are the primary culprits on acne. And the liver is at the top the pyramid of things to fix since it does, estrogen detox, blood sugar control, T4 to T3, etc...

Lastly how is your sleep? 7-8hrs deep un-interrupted? No bathroom breaks or any wakings?
 
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Mad

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Mar 13, 2017
Messages
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Search DIM on the forum, it is what is in Estroblock, I do not think it is very helpful.

DIM Is A Potent Androgen Antagonist And Estrogen Agonist

Sounds like your pulse/temps are heading in the right direction.

Ray Peat, PhD on Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse, and TSH – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Here is what I think about vitamin A now, if you are overloaded with PUFA or sluggish liver/hypo, doing higher amounts of A will make you more hypo, since PUFA already blocking vitamin A transport and the massive amounts of vitamin A now competing for the transport protein = thyroid is getting blocked. Best try lower amounts while reducing PUFA intake greatly. Try 2500IU to 5000IU on topically on foot, and increase if temps and pulse and sleep are good.

Here is what has help my skin the most:
Trying to consume almost zero fat and zero starch, PUFA depletion approach, done this for 6 months now.
Leaning out liver(reducing fat overload and fibrosis) with caffeine and K2 and using B3 and B1 to halt FFA oxidation, lactate and increase glucose oxidation. Haidut's Defibron appears to be helping here as well.

Search @theLaw recent posts, good info on starting the liver caffeine cleanse, supported by studies(Haiduts post). Using B3 and aspirin can be very tricking for Hypo persons, until the liver is functioning well.

Most of my experiments point me in the direction that elevated estrogen/cortisol are the primary culprits on acne. And the liver is at the top the pyramid of things to fix since it does, estrogen detox, blood sugar control, T4 to T3, etc...

Lastly how is your sleep? 7-8hrs deep un-interrupted? No bathroom breaks or any wakings?

Yes, Estroblock is DIM. Noted - not that I was willing to give that another try after my last experience.

That's sort of a letdown about the Vitamin A. I know that I was putting a good bit of hope in a supplement, but hey, us acne sufferers deserve a break - a miracle supplement is just what we need! How long did you take a high dose before you lowered it?

Thanks for the recommendations about liver cleansing. I had looked into it a bit recently with regards to weight loss. Have been doing lowish fat for a couple months (30g/day, sometimes more on weekend). I hadn't gotten food cravings since starting this Peat approach, but low fat has given me occasional cravings again - no fun! Zero starch is hard for me as well so I am focusing on eating enough protein and carbs and slowly reducing starch. Anyway, after going down a rabbit hole of threads about liver health...caffeine and K2, here I come! Seems like that needs to be an orientation for new forum members: "Ray Peat Thyroid Health Approach...but first, LIVER HEALTH!!" Very interesting to read about and excited to learn and experiment more.

Sleep is good. On weekends when there's no alarm clock, I sleep over ten hours uninterrupted.
Note: when I started working on thyroid several months back, I developed horrible sleep issues that lasted a couple of months. Thankfully, I have been recovered from that for several weeks now.
Note: this past week or so, I've been taking Taurine consistently right before bed. Have actually had worse sleep. Waking up several times, and have woken up needing to pee which hasn't happened to me in forever. Should I take Taurine with dinner perhaps?
 

Orion

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Oct 23, 2015
Messages
858
Yes, Estroblock is DIM. Noted - not that I was willing to give that another try after my last experience.

That's sort of a letdown about the Vitamin A. I know that I was putting a good bit of hope in a supplement, but hey, us acne sufferers deserve a break - a miracle supplement is just what we need! How long did you take a high dose before you lowered it?

Thanks for the recommendations about liver cleansing. I had looked into it a bit recently with regards to weight loss. Have been doing lowish fat for a couple months (30g/day, sometimes more on weekend). I hadn't gotten food cravings since starting this Peat approach, but low fat has given me occasional cravings again - no fun! Zero starch is hard for me as well so I am focusing on eating enough protein and carbs and slowly reducing starch. Anyway, after going down a rabbit hole of threads about liver health...caffeine and K2, here I come! Seems like that needs to be an orientation for new forum members: "Ray Peat Thyroid Health Approach...but first, LIVER HEALTH!!" Very interesting to read about and excited to learn and experiment more.

Sleep is good. On weekends when there's no alarm clock, I sleep over ten hours uninterrupted.
Note: when I started working on thyroid several months back, I developed horrible sleep issues that lasted a couple of months. Thankfully, I have been recovered from that for several weeks now.
Note: this past week or so, I've been taking Taurine consistently right before bed. Have actually had worse sleep. Waking up several times, and have woken up needing to pee which hasn't happened to me in forever. Should I take Taurine with dinner perhaps?

I tried 500K IU of vitamin A for close to 6 months last year, it did help, but eventually lowered my temps/pulse and I got nasty head cold in the middle of summer, even getting hours of full body sunlight every day. Which is consistent with RP explanation of too much. High dose seems to works like accutane, bind to the transport protein, block it, and then thyroid transport is compromised, so metabolism is downregulated and all hormones production reduces. Acne is then reduced but not cured and you are in a worsened lowered metabolism state.

Since you are younger, you probably don't need to go full zero fat and starch, getting older makes it harder to bounce back. Yep I think liver health is key, so focusing on foods and supplements that will help. So avoid unsaturated fat as much as possible, and choose fruits over starch when possible/convenient.

Taurine is an amino acid with sulphur, I think I have seen info where this can cause excess urination for some. I do take it in the mornings(2g/day)
 

tomisonbottom

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Apr 17, 2013
Messages
920
Here is what has help my skin the most:
Trying to consume almost zero fat and zero starch, PUFA depletion approach, done this for 6 months now.
Leaning out liver(reducing fat overload and fibrosis) with caffeine and K2 and using B3 and B1 to halt FFA oxidation, lactate and increase glucose oxidation. Haidut's Defibron appears to be helping here as well.

Search @theLaw recent posts, good info on starting the liver caffeine cleanse, supported by studies(Haiduts post). Using B3 and aspirin can be very tricking for Hypo persons, until the liver is functioning well.

Most of my experiments point me in the direction that elevated estrogen/cortisol are the primary culprits on acne. And the liver is at the top the pyramid of things to fix since it does, estrogen detox, blood sugar control, T4 to T3, etc...

Do you still do zero fat and starch? Do you get cravings for fat at all?
 

Orion

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Oct 23, 2015
Messages
858
Do you still do zero fat and starch? Do you get cravings for fat at all?

I have moved away from zero fat and starch, attempted it for about 1yr, but did not get results I was looking for in the long run. But while I was doing it, I did not get fat cravings.

Currently experimenting with long fasts and will be following eating for slow oxidation metabolic typing afterwards. Got really good and dramatic skin results quickly doing these tests.
 

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