Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[bloom]

I know what you mean, seeing how I feel normally would definitely be interesting. That would give me a precise grasp of how far Ive come. However after years of PFS I have almsot forgotten what life felt like before! Besides, the withdrawal period from caffiene would be too burdensome, and I feel pretty great in some respects, maybe better than I felt before PFS in aspects like work ethic and positive outlook. Though my libido isnt fully back.

Bottom line is Im feeling good on caffiene, preg, prog, b3, famo, fruit+milk diet, and a couple rum$cokes here and there. My PEA arrived today and I took 500mg, and I believe its already made a difference, my cognition feels easier and lighter, and I ahve inosine coming next so.

Yeah well just be really observant with how you respond to what. If caffeine helps great. I'm phasing it out and I'm noticing I'm better for it, less anxiety and improvement in libido. It sucks because I love coffee, I worked as a barista and would drink 6 cups a day. Oh well i'll have to put it aside for the time being *sigh*. I'm waiting on Inosine, let us know how it goes.

 

[sladerunner69]

Yeah well just be really observant with how you respond to what. If caffeine helps great. I'm phasing it out and I'm noticing I'm better for it, less anxiety and improvement in libido. It sucks because I love coffee, I worked as a barista and would drink 6 cups a day. Oh well i'll have to put it aside for the time being *sigh*. I'm waiting on Inosine, let us know how it goes.

Yeah I have noticed the same benefits from limiting my caffiene intake, definitely less anxiety and stronger erections. Especially a few eyars ago the anxiety from caffiene was a huge problem for me. However I feel my thyroid function is strongly improved on caffiene and that it improves my mood and my energy, even if it makes me feel a bit more anxious. The weakened erections I think are from the antagonism to NO, btu there culd be more at play. Anyways caffiene does seem like a double edged sword, maybe I will go a week or two without it and see.

 

[bloom]

Thanks for the detailed response. Yeah, I like the herbs but looking at back at it, it did nothing for the mental sides. I felt better on them probably cause they are adaptogens (allowing you to handle stress better), but did no where near anything as the high dose caffeine and niacinamide combo which I would consider a cure if it lasted longer than a few hours. Same thing with pine pollen, my physical body changes, libido increases, but doesn't do much for anxiety, stress, sleep etc.

I think the people who are only really suffering from physical and sexual sides are the ones that make the recovery from tribulus and other similar things, a lot of them have low T to begin with. I think people like us who have both mental and physical, it makes it much more difficult to treat.

The things I have tried and would avoid, which also goes along with bloom's theory are TRT, DHT gel, proviron, masteron, anavar, primo etc.

The things that can increase androgens but also act heavily in the brain and provide other benefits are things like R-andro, 5a-dhp, caffeine, niacinamide.

That second list can increase androgens but also have properties in the brain as well, so maybe that is why it can level things out. We just found out that allopreg can downstream convert to androsterone (r-andro) while androsterone can backwards convert to allopreg despite increasing DHT in the blood. For me personally, low dose androsterone made me worse while higher doses (in the hundreds of mg's) made me feel better.

Yeah I agree, I've read of stories of guys claiming recovery on Tribulus, Creatine, Sorghum. I agree in those cases I think they had a milder form of PFS, where 5ar was not significantly impaired in the CNS. Severe cases of PFS involve I think, 5ar impairment in the CNS. This is what makes our PFS difficult to treat, and requires a different approach.

 

[TubZy]

Yeah I agree, I've read of stories of guys claiming recovery on Tribulus, Creatine, Sorghum. I agree in those cases I think they had a milder form of PFS, where 5ar was not significantly impaired in the CNS. Severe cases of PFS involve I think, 5ar impairment in the CNS. This is what makes our PFS difficult to treat, and requires a different approach.

Yeah, almost all of us here have had long term PFS, which seems to be the most prevalent with severe mental sides making it harder to treat where the CNS becomes more involved. I read stories of guys recovering from just DHEA only, but many of them where only off fin for a few months, if that and never experienced bad mental sides.

 

[bloom]

This is an appropriated quote, but I think it's relevant for PFS and any illness for that matter. 'One man's medicine is another man's poison'

 

[JoeKool]

Ah okay, any reason why still on TB 500? It increased androgens for me and have you tried dropping energy shots/probiptics?

I wonder if the preg made you turtle as your body was starting to move to ward homeostasis since ceasing supplements and caused you to crash

Interesting that you felt above baseline since stopping R andro as well, by not taking supplements.

Well, the TB500 seems to be performing it's duty of repair... i have noticed changes ...

On the day I tried preg and regretted it, I used muira puama & catauaba together and it actually brought blood to my genitals and i appeared fuller... since then, I just checked my journal and on 6/4 I tried, once again, a round of herbs and had a horrible night... very cold genitals...

So I was mistaken when I said about 3 weeks herb avoidance but I had 1 day in there when I tried again... I used citrulline, Arginine, tyrosine (this is what I think negatively affected me), Avena Sativa (Oat), muira puama & catauaba, niacinamide.

I wanted to touch on something related to how finasteride is made, from a post here on this forum... Finasteride begins as a progesterone and is altered to do what we know now, block 5ar2...

We all know its affect on steroids and neurosteroids so I won't touch on that... but I wonder if that synthetic & altered prog has now programmed our receptors to only anticipate that form of prog until we re-program our receptors somehow... which might be why some base steroids like preg & prog are the starting point to recovery...

I'm going to try topical progesterone to see its affect...

As far as androgens, another big issue of PFS is how it seems everyones symptoms are different... Mine are mostly sexual now so that's my focus... I feel clearer in the head overall so that symptom has improved... I don't believe I'm negatively affected by androgens as I have yet to feel worse on something that boosts them... like trib or pine pollen... but I love the products here, I think the solution for each symptom is in the lab here...

You guys are all geniuses too... big time help and info...

 

[Kiwiii]

For those who had suicidal toughts, depression and anxiety, how long did it last? i'm 3 months on Effexor and depression doesnt lift

 

[Gibson2k3]

For those who had suicidal toughts, depression and anxiety, how long did it last? i'm 3 months on Effexor and depression doesnt lift

Whenever I am in a bad spot...I do a 3- 5 day water fast. No drugs or supps. Just a pure water fast. After fasting I use Niacinimide and maybe some magnesium/glycine for sleep. Hot baths or saunas can help too.

 

[Kiwiii]

Whenever I am in a bad spot...I do a 3- 5 day water fast. No drugs or supps. Just a pure water fast. After fasting I use Niacinimide and maybe some magnesium/glycine for sleep. Hot baths or saunas can help too.

Are you able to work during water fast ?

 

[sladerunner69]

For those who had suicidal toughts, depression and anxiety, how long did it last? i'm 3 months on Effexor and depression doesnt lift

Why are you on effexor there?

 

[Kiwiii]

Why are you on effexor there?

I do not function normally without an AD, i'm on sick leave since 3 months.

 

[sladerunner69]

I do not function normally without an AD, i'm on sick leave since 3 months.

I think there are other more peat friendly options...

 

[sladerunner69]

Yeah well just be really observant with how you respond to what. If caffeine helps great. I'm phasing it out and I'm noticing I'm better for it, less anxiety and improvement in libido. It sucks because I love coffee, I worked as a barista and would drink 6 cups a day. Oh well i'll have to put it aside for the time being *sigh*. I'm waiting on Inosine, let us know how it goes.

Ive been experimenting with insoine 500mg 1 or 2 times a day, it has a similar relaxation effect to niacinimide, but not as noticeable. I think it also gives me sort of a tiredness or drowsiness, but that could also be the progesterone I have been taking before bed. I am going to take out the progesterone now and try to pin down exactly how much drowsiness the inosine is causing. In the end though, I think the most effective supps are caffiene pills, niacinimide, pregnenlone.

 

[JoeKool]

@Kiwiii I believe L-Tyrosine improved my brain and mood... 1000mg a day...

Try one thing at a time... find what you notice improvements and combine to added benefits... glycine before bed helps 5ar and sleep... very important to heal and release hormones over night...

This is ending my 9th month of recovery... November was terrifying ... improvements using Andro have been invaluable... keep trying

 

[RedStaR]

What do people here think of Ashwagandha?

 

[REOSIRENS]

For those who had suicidal toughts, depression and anxiety, how long did it last? i'm 3 months on Effexor and depression doesnt lift

Cholesterol is the most powerful antidepressant... Things that increase or protect cholesterol from going too low are very good antidepressants... 7 oxo dehydroepiandrosterone cyproheptadine allithiamine/thiamine palmitolethylamine reduce beta amyloid plaques and help frontal cortex breathe and they are very effective against depression...

 

[REOSIRENS]

Cholesterol is the most powerful antidepressant... Things that increase or protect cholesterol from going too low are very good antidepressants... 7 oxo dehydroepiandrosterone cyproheptadine allithiamine/thiamine palmitolethylamine reduce beta amyloid plaques and help frontal cortex breathe and they are very effective against depression...

PS: serotonin like estrogen are the root cause of depression so one successful pharmaceutical weapon against depression is tianiptine

But tianiptine have side effects if you overdo ... And it depletes thiamine potassium and magnesium in the long run...

Some papers have shown palmitoyethanolamide protects from some opiate effects that come with tianiptine use...

 

[Kiwiii]

PS: serotonin like estrogen are the root cause of depression so one successful pharmaceutical weapon against depression is tianiptine

But tianiptine have side effects if you overdo ... And it depletes thiamine potassium and magnesium in the long run...

Some papers have shown palmitoyethanolamide protects from some opiate effects that come with tianiptine use...

Yes but i take effexor, i cannot take tianeptine with effexor

 

[jacknap]

The fasting thing I still don't buy into. I still haven't found any research in why it could be good for PFS, actually quite the opposite due to how bad of a stress response you are putting your body in. Cortisol, prolactin, GH, extremely suppressed thyroid etc. All the stress hormone levels extremely through the roof. Even a worse state when you were on finasteride stress wise. I don't really have an interest in fasting and putting my body back into a severe state unless it guaranteed me a cure, otherwise I just feel you are doing more damage for nothing.

I guarantee the results from fasting are just from not taking any supplements like at all zero topical, oral etc. All the logs show consistently people feeling great while fasting but when coming off it doesn't seem like they are cured, more just a temporary fix. The logs on SS seem to be consistent with that. Also, many people who are doing fasting are also using things prior and after fasting like herbs etc. again. So it is hard to pinpoint that fasting is actually helping rather than someone just taking absolutely zero supplements, or it could be the herbs being taken AFTER fasting that are causing the rise in T again and starting to make the person slowly feel worse again. All of the logs show that when the person was done with fasting they felt great and as time went on (I.e. adding herbs back in, pine pollen,vitamins etc.) they start to mention they have "good" days and "bad" days so it would be really interesting to hear.

It took me after two years of taking a b complex post fin everyday to realize that is actually making me feel worse which I think is in line with blooms thinking in that any possible supplement that can raise serum T or DHT can actually make you feel worse. It can be super minimal but can still throw the body out of homeostasis.

I personally never been off absolutely zero supplements since coming off fin and of course I was on supplements while on fin too. Maybe one day or two, but nothing like weeks or months. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has, despite how simple and stupid it sounds.

fasting can help 'restart' the hpta axis

fasting raises cortisol at first as the body burns through glycogen stores then after the 3rd day or so converts to ketosis and is not as stressful

fasting stimulate autophagy to repair damaged cells

fasting starves off pathogens

fasting can help prevent TBI

checkout true north health centre in north california they have a bunch of 'pro-fasting' studies.

cd had almost identical symptoms to mine upon reading and fasting single handedly swatted like 10 of them away for him.
so I'd like to do it but I'm pretty broke and my parents are helping me out, and telling them I need to spend $5000 to starve myself is a hard sell.

 

[TubZy]

fasting can help 'restart' the hpta axis

fasting raises cortisol at first as the body burns through glycogen stores then after the 3rd day or so converts to ketosis and is not as stressful

fasting stimulate autophagy to repair damaged cells

fasting starves off pathogens

fasting can help prevent TBI

checkout true north health centre in north california they have a bunch of 'pro-fasting' studies.

cd had almost identical symptoms to mine upon reading and fasting single handedly swatted like 10 of them away for him.
so I'd like to do it but I'm pretty broke and my parents are helping me out, and telling them I need to spend $5000 to starve myself is a hard sell.

Yeah, I'm aware of the other benefits of fasting but don't see it how it plays a role in PFS, maybe with the new guys approach is terms of progesterone receptors that could be it. If you read more logs on SS a lot of people didn't get benefits from fasting or returned to baseline again when eating that is what I meant when I said its a mixed bag.

Why would you pay 5000 just to fast, people do it all the time unsupervised