Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[Terma]

To the people who asked about opioids, the closest thing is tianeptine which is opioid in higher doses. The sodium is more effective but dependency and withdrawal are real problems. The sulfate also works, I use that now here and there, but it's weaker and onset is slower.

In my experience there's nothing as effective for any condition resembling this as opioid combined with progesterone (well apart from 5-a-dhp). The problem is dependency.

 

[sladerunner69]

Well i have noticed Nicotinamide can make my hairline itch where it's receding, it can also make my hair and skin much greasier. If it is true I don't really give a f@ck to be honest. Hair is not even on my priority list anymore.

Havent noticed this myself.... whats your diet like? Are you eating extra sugar and protein when you take it?

 

[sladerunner69]

To the people who asked about opioids, the closest thing is tianeptine which is opioid in higher doses. The sodium is more effective but dependency and withdrawal are real problems. The sulfate also works, I use that now here and there, but it's weaker and onset is slower.

In my experience there's nothing as effective for any condition resembling this as opioid combined with progesterone (well apart from 5-a-dhp). The problem is dependency.

which opioid do you recommend if dependency is a significant concern? How about Tramadol?

 

[TubZy]

Havent noticed this myself.... whats your diet like? Are you eating extra sugar and protein when you take it?

Yeah, I noticed the opposite , niacinamide is good for my hair, kills itch etc. hence why we use it topically for hair loss

 

[Terma]

which opioid do you recommend if dependency is a significant concern? How about Tramadol?

You won't get away scott-free with anything. But you're not off, tramadol is less harsh, people use it to wean off the tianeptine sodium. I'm doing tianeptine sulfate 2x a week, that's the best I could find. There's kratom but I don't know if it completely fills in for an opioid in the pathways.

 

[TubZy]

Has anyone actually tried taking absolutely zero supplements for a certain period of time?

 

[JoeKool]

I'm in process of a supplement fast, avoiding herbs of any kind. The tb500 remains however. I wanted to mention i tried to start up again and took a 100mg preg only to Turtle bigtime and regret it for 48 hours. Since then, I've gone about 3 weeks without herbs. Still with energy shots tho. I'm not sure what's helping but I feel my baseline has improved and I'm prepping another round of RAndro with very little herbal supplements. I loved pine pollen when I tested it so I'll include that for sure. I'll update my thread With my next plan

Edit : crap this is the 666th post

 

[TubZy]

I'm in process of a supplement fast, avoiding herbs of any kind. The tb500 remains however. I wanted to mention i tried to start up again and took a 100mg preg only to Turtle bigtime and regret it for 48 hours. Since then, I've gone about 3 weeks without herbs. Still with energy shots tho. I'm not sure what's helping but I feel my baseline has improved and I'm prepping another round of RAndro with very little herbal supplements. I loved pine pollen when I tested it so I'll include that for sure. I'll update my thread With my next plan

Edit : crap this is the 666th post

The fasting thing I still don't buy into. I still haven't found any research in why it could be good for PFS, actually quite the opposite due to how bad of a stress response you are putting your body in. Cortisol, prolactin, GH, extremely suppressed thyroid etc. All the stress hormone levels extremely through the roof. Even a worse state when you were on finasteride stress wise. I don't really have an interest in fasting and putting my body back into a severe state unless it guaranteed me a cure, otherwise I just feel you are doing more damage for nothing.

I guarantee the results from fasting are just from not taking any supplements like at all zero topical, oral etc. All the logs show consistently people feeling great while fasting but when coming off it doesn't seem like they are cured, more just a temporary fix. The logs on SS seem to be consistent with that. Also, many people who are doing fasting are also using things prior and after fasting like herbs etc. again. So it is hard to pinpoint that fasting is actually helping rather than someone just taking absolutely zero supplements, or it could be the herbs being taken AFTER fasting that are causing the rise in T again and starting to make the person slowly feel worse again. All of the logs show that when the person was done with fasting they felt great and as time went on (I.e. adding herbs back in, pine pollen,vitamins etc.) they start to mention they have "good" days and "bad" days so it would be really interesting to hear.

It took me after two years of taking a b complex post fin everyday to realize that is actually making me feel worse which I think is in line with blooms thinking in that any possible supplement that can raise serum T or DHT can actually make you feel worse. It can be super minimal but can still throw the body out of homeostasis.

I personally never been off absolutely zero supplements since coming off fin and of course I was on supplements while on fin too. Maybe one day or two, but nothing like weeks or months. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has, despite how simple and stupid it sounds.

 

[sladerunner69]

Has anyone actually tried taking absolutely zero supplements for a certain period of time?

Not recently no haha... a couple years ago I did nothing except Peat type dieting for months and I felt OK but was still pretty tired, lazy and unmotivated, so I started introducing caffeine, aspirin dhea you know the story

However @bloom is now recommending to stop dirnking coffee or taking nodoz pills in order to lower blood levels of androgens... I and increase brain 5ar1.... ugggh dont know if I can do that lol

 

[sladerunner69]

You won't get away scott-free with anything. But you're not off, tramadol is less harsh, people use it to wean off the tianeptine sodium. I'm doing tianeptine sulfate 2x a week, that's the best I could find. There's kratom but I don't know if it completely fills in for an opioid in the pathways.

well Id like to try it but I dont see myself getting my hands on it anytime ever. Im not down to order it from some grey market website. With my luck I would have customs/feds all up in my butt trying to make an example out me...

 

[TubZy]

And I meant to mention, it is not just pure fasting that people are reporting feeling better from, but also juice feasting. So again, if the results from pure fasting are the reason why it helps PFS suffers, juice feasting proves it is not exactly "fasting" that is providing the benefits. It is either you are not eating or you are and of course juice feasting you technically consuming calories which would put you out of a "pure" fasting state, which would discredit any benefits that the research shows for pure fasting.

So this just doubles down on my point that "fasting" and "juice feasting" are probably just from not consuming any supplements at all in any form that they are using prior that can alter your body's HPTA, allowing it to help rebalance the brain and serum hormone levels.

There has also been recoveries from people from just stopping all of their supplements oddly enough.

 

[TubZy]

Not recently no haha... a couple years ago I did nothing except Peat type dieting for months and I felt OK but was still pretty tired, lazy and unmotivated, so I started introducing caffeine, aspirin dhea you know the story

However @bloom is now recommending to stop dirnking coffee or taking nodoz pills in order to lower blood levels of androgens... I and increase brain 5ar1.... ugggh dont know if I can do that lol

Yeah, I'm in the same exact boat. The first two years of PFS you become obsessive of taking anything that will increase T or DHT and just start taking loads of stuff with every meal, before bed etc. not realizing you are actually making yourself despite a small boost in libido you may get, I personally don't remember when I was taking zero supplements topical and oral. I know it sounds ridiculously stupid but it is starting to make more sense now...lol you mentioned a couple years ago you did it and felt OK, would be interesting to see if you did it now since you are almost recovered since you were in such bad shape.

 

[JoeKool]

@TubZy Hey TubZy, I referenced supplement fast, meaning i'm not taking any supplements... i'm 100% still eating full meals of food... but it was this 10 days off of supplements, then a single dosage of PREG that set me back, and now almost 3 weeks since a supplement except energy shots and probiotic...

I don't think a meal fast is good and I have used IGF1-lr3 to boost IGF levels which is what they claim it does...

 

[TubZy]

@TubZy Hey TubZy, I referenced supplement fast, meaning i'm not taking any supplements... i'm 100% still eating full meals of food... but it was this 10 days off of supplements, then a single dosage of PREG that set me back, and now almost 3 weeks since a supplement except energy shots and probiotic...

I don't think a meal fast is good and I have used IGF1-lr3 to boost IGF levels which is what they claim it does...

Ah okay, any reason why still on TB 500? It increased androgens for me and have you tried dropping energy shots/probiptics?

I wonder if the preg made you turtle as your body was starting to move to ward homeostasis since ceasing supplements and caused you to crash

Interesting that you felt above baseline since stopping R andro as well, by not taking supplements.

 

[5 alpha victim]

Has anyone actually tried taking absolutely zero supplements for a certain period of time?

yup from April-may

by the end of April I couldn't sleep, go the bathroom and had almost no labido. It sucked. I always cycle. but for now on when it comes to the basics I'm never stopping

 

[TubZy]

yup from April-may

by the end of April I couldn't sleep, go the bathroom and had almost no labido. It sucked. I always cycle. but for now on when it comes to the basics I'm never stopping

When you say cycle are you saying from herbs or from R andro? Also, do you notice the herbs do anything on the mental side? I never noticed it, but good for libido and physically.

 

[5 alpha victim]

About a week, 100- 150mg per day. 50mg dose. i'll add that PEA (palmitoylethanolamide) seems to be helping a lot aswell. Along with low doses of Pyridoxine Hydrochloride.

any new updates on the Etifoxine?

I found this old thread on propecia help with a couple of guys trying
Etifoxine without results.

Allopregnanolone pill -- coming in 6-7 years : Neurotransmitters & Neurosteroids - Page 2

than again like anything else with the guys on propecia help they never give anything a chance

 

[5 alpha victim]

When you say cycle are you saying from herbs or from R andro? Also, do you notice the herbs do anything on the mental side? I never noticed it, but good for libido and physically.

everything except the herbs I will always cycle. So R Andro and more recently 5a DHP, preg , prog and the
niacinamide I have been cycling. It's usually 30 days on 30 days off. my first niacinamide cycle was just 2 weeks because I started feeling fatigue through out my whole body that did not feel normal. Actually I think I read a thread where you said to high dose niacinamide made you feel tired as well. I figured it was a good time to stop seeing that I was about 30 days on everything anyway so I stopped everything a couple of days ago with the exception of herbs.

the herbs I usually do three months on with a month off but I'm thinking for now on I'm just never stopping the herbs unless I notice like poor liver function or something. and I'll just cycle everything else.

the herbs help me with everything digestion, labido , sleep, and a slight increase in T not so much mentally but i can say im in all around better state of mind ob them but they help me with everything to a much lesser degree than 5adhp and super R Andro. I like preg as well. Prog and dhea I'm not a big fan off thus far and I haven't giving niacinamide a fair chance yet to know.

with the talk of high T in the blood causing reduced 5ar1 expression in brain I'm thinking I like the herbs for my T seeing that's it's a nice slight increase. obviously this is all theory anyway but I bet we are still good to at least have a decent amount of testosterone without worrying about it reducing 5ar if that's what's happening. other wise people with normal Endocrin systems and T would have 5ar issues. based on everything bloom posted for us though it makes sense that if it's to high it could be hurting our chances of recovering 5ar.

maybe it's like a negative feed back loop type of thing. The studies show T is always higher in PFS groups in the CFS so adding to much more is probable adding fuel to the fire. reading through old propecia help posts shows people who tried high dose TRT ended up feeling worse more often than people who tried lower dose TRT. Justquitdut being a good example. So that matches up pretty good with blooms theory

 

[sladerunner69]

Yeah, I'm in the same exact boat. The first two years of PFS you become obsessive of taking anything that will increase T or DHT and just start taking loads of stuff with every meal, before bed etc. not realizing you are actually making yourself despite a small boost in libido you may get, I personally don't remember when I was taking zero supplements topical and oral. I know it sounds ridiculously stupid but it is starting to make more sense now...lol you mentioned a couple years ago you did it and felt OK, would be interesting to see if you did it now since you are almost recovered since you were in such bad shape.

I know what you mean, seeing how I feel normally would definitely be interesting. That would give me a precise grasp of how far Ive come. However after years of PFS I have almsot forgotten what life felt like before! Besides, the withdrawal period from caffiene would be too burdensome, and I feel pretty great in some respects, maybe better than I felt before PFS in aspects like work ethic and positive outlook. Though my libido isnt fully back.

Bottom line is Im feeling good on caffiene, preg, prog, b3, famo, fruit+milk diet, and a couple rum$cokes here and there. My PEA arrived today and I took 500mg, and I believe its already made a difference, my cognition feels easier and lighter, and I ahve inosine coming next so.

 

[TubZy]

everything except the herbs I will always cycle. So R Andro and more recently 5a DHP, preg , prog and the
niacinamide I have been cycling. It's usually 30 days on 30 days off. my first niacinamide cycle was just 2 weeks because I started feeling fatigue through out my whole body that did not feel normal. Actually I think I read a thread where you said to high dose niacinamide made you feel tired as well. I figured it was a good time to stop seeing that I was about 30 days on everything anyway so I stopped everything a couple of days ago with the exception of herbs.

the herbs I usually do three months on with a month off but I'm thinking for now on I'm just never stopping the herbs unless I notice like poor liver function or something. and I'll just cycle everything else.

the herbs help me with everything digestion, labido , sleep, and a slight increase in T not so much mentally but i can say im in all around better state of mind ob them but they help me with everything to a much lesser degree than 5adhp and super R Andro. I like preg as well. Prog and dhea I'm not a big fan off thus far and I haven't giving niacinamide a fair chance yet to know.

with the talk of high T in the blood causing reduced 5ar1 expression in brain I'm thinking I like the herbs for my T seeing that's it's a nice slight increase. obviously this is all theory anyway but I bet we are still good to at least have a decent amount of testosterone without worrying about it reducing 5ar if that's what's happening. other wise people with normal Endocrin systems and T would have 5ar issues. based on everything bloom posted for us though it makes sense that if it's to high it could be hurting our chances of recovering 5ar.

maybe it's like a negative feed back loop type of thing. The studies show T is always higher in PFS groups in the CFS so adding to much more is probable adding fuel to the fire. reading through old propecia help posts shows people who tried high dose TRT ended up feeling worse more often than people who tried lower dose TRT. Justquitdut being a good example. So that matches up pretty good with blooms theory

Thanks for the detailed response. Yeah, I like the herbs but looking at back at it, it did nothing for the mental sides. I felt better on them probably cause they are adaptogens (allowing you to handle stress better), but did no where near anything as the high dose caffeine and niacinamide combo which I would consider a cure if it lasted longer than a few hours. Same thing with pine pollen, my physical body changes, libido increases, but doesn't do much for anxiety, stress, sleep etc.

I think the people who are only really suffering from physical and sexual sides are the ones that make the recovery from tribulus and other similar things, a lot of them have low T to begin with. I think people like us who have both mental and physical, it makes it much more difficult to treat.

The things I have tried and would avoid, which also goes along with bloom's theory are TRT, DHT gel, proviron, masteron, anavar, primo etc.

The things that can increase androgens but also act heavily in the brain and provide other benefits are things like R-andro, 5a-dhp, caffeine, niacinamide.

That second list can increase androgens but also have properties in the brain as well, so maybe that is why it can level things out. We just found out that allopreg can downstream convert to androsterone (r-andro) while androsterone can backwards convert to allopreg despite increasing DHT in the blood. For me personally, low dose androsterone made me worse while higher doses (in the hundreds of mg's) made me feel better.