Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[thorus2000]

I have listened carefully to the discussion. I also suffer from PFS (Insomnia, claustophobia, lethargy).
Would be interested for me if there any results in using nicotinamide, insone and PEA?

 

[jacknap]

I have listened carefully to the discussion. I also suffer from PFS (Insomnia, claustophobia, lethargy).
Would be interested for me if there any results in using nicotinamide, insone and PEA?

join hackstasis forum or swole source forum. people have made greater strides with pfs recovery there than here.

 

[bk_]

Well Nicotinamide for one thing. 1-3grams a day. There was a huge discussion as to why nicotinamide may be helpful for PFS on 'pfs, 5ar, and the brain' thread. There's speculation it may increase the gene expression of 5ar. There is also some evidence it's a GABA A receptor agonist. Also Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (b6) has been very helpful.

Androgen hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases under the influence of pyridoxine derivatives. - PubMed - NCBI

This may be coincidental but I have started using nicotinamide to reverse what I believe to be "epigenetic over-methylation" if there is such a thing. Basically I took too many methylated B-complex vitamins with Folate and that flipped a switch where I went from sleeping like a baby to having severe insomnia which I've been suffering from for over a year now. I've researched that people with MTHFR mutations have limited methylation so when over-methylated a suggestion has been to take nicotinamide. I'm doing that now with red light therapy and I've been sleeping like a baby. I also take it for the metabolic benefits.

I wonder if insufficient methylation pathways is a risk-factor or co-factor in developing PFS...

 

[jinstewart]

@bloom

I've read this thread with great interest. Have you made progress? If so, what is your current supplement routine?

Thank you and everyone for the huge effort in healing this.

 

[RisingSun]

No way to test for 5ar levels in the Brain with a blood test. Perhaps by checking cerebrospinal fluid, but that's not possible. I'm staring to think that Nicotinamide's benefits for PFS go beyond being a GABAA receptor agonist. Nicotinamide is a class class III HDACI (sirtuin inhibitor). @haidut posted a study which showed SIRT 1 inhibition up-regulates Androgen Receptor gene expression. I couldn't find anything on SIRT inhibition and 5ar expression. However I found a study which found that Trichostatin A (a class I and II HDACI) increases 5ar expression in Gial Cells (the most abundant cells in the Central Nervous System).

Trichostatin A stimulates steroid 5alpha-reductase gene expression in rat C6 glioma cells via a mechanism involving Sp1 and Sp3 transcription factors. - PubMed - NCBI



Butyric acid is a class 1, 2, 3 and 8 HDACI from wiki:



I couldn't find anything on Butyric acid and 5ar upregulation, this may be promising however.

Some of my patients have PFS and they are definitely desperate.

I am just as desperate as nothing seems to work for most of them: Aromasin, test prop, Proviron, Masteron. Nothing seems to alleviate the symptoms which may be due to an Allopregnenolone production deficiency.

Trichostatin A seems very promissing.

It is an antifungal antibiotic, I wonder what is the full array of side effects and long term consequence of that category of HDAC

@haidut ?

 

[bk_]

Has anyone tried 6-Keto P4 (6-Keto progresterone)? Seems more promising for PFS than normal progresterone.

 

[broozer]

Some of my patients have PFS and they are definitely desperate.

I am just as desperate as nothing seems to work for most of them: Aromasin, test prop, Proviron, Masteron. Nothing seems to alleviate the symptoms which may be due to an Allopregnenolone production deficiency.

Trichostatin A seems very promissing.

It is an antifungal antibiotic, I wonder what is the full array of side effects and long term consequence of that category of HDAC

@haidut ?

i feel your spot on with the low ALLO thing. i ve tried several things to help low ALLO symptoms from insomia to lethargy. tried unhealthy stuff. the sad truth is i felt best ever since PFS when i was on diazepam and smoking cigaretts. i quit those due to longterm harm but life is still a hell. Tried SSRI fluox which is known to improve ALLO but i didnt feel better on, to scared to even catch SSRI issues.
is there any way we can get the SAGE217 drug which was FDA approved for post partum depression? its a direct ALLO booster.

 

[RisingSun]

i feel your spot on with the low ALLO thing. i ve tried several things to help low ALLO symptoms from insomia to lethargy. tried unhealthy stuff. the sad truth is i felt best ever since PFS when i was on diazepam and smoking cigaretts. i quit those due to longterm harm but life is still a hell. Tried SSRI fluox which is known to improve ALLO but i didnt feel better on, to scared to even catch SSRI issues.
is there any way we can get the SAGE217 drug which was FDA approved for post partum depression? its a direct ALLO booster.

It’s an investigational drug in preclinical development stage.
Which means there is no way you can get it through legal and approved routes.
You would need to find an underground lab that develops it, such as those who develop SARMs and peptides.

 

[broozer]

It’s an investigational drug in preclinical development stage.
Which means there is no way you can get it through legal and approved routes.
You would need to find an underground lab that develops it, such as those who develop SARMs and peptides.

ok,but where to find reliable u-labs? i mean i would do like anything to improve...s**ew legal or not

 

[broozer]

ok, i confused the sage drugs.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

so the injectable drug brexanolone to be approved by march 2019 - with a similair mechanism of action like the oral one. did i get that right?

 

[ddjd]

Just use GBL wheel cleaner ...or darknet lol

do people acually take GBL? its easily available in europe

 

[MCurtone]

Trying to bring this thread back to life as I have personal experience with GHB. I've used it a few times and feel that it greatly improved my PFS symptoms. Although I am not 100%, I plan to begin using it again.

The whole theory here is that 5ar is not functioning or at too low levels in the brain/cns and lowers all of the neurosteroids involved with it.

As you can see below, inhibiting 5ar is impacting Allo, DHDOC, THDOC as well as Androstanediol to a degree. All these play a role in our ability to deal with stress via GABA. This is what leads to the insomnia, anxiety, racing thoughts, depression and a seemingly never-ending cortisol roller-coaster. It becomes a vicious cycle. Our minds and bodies cannot calm themselves, leading to massive degeneration, mentally and physically.

This leads us to GHB, which a weeks use did more for my mental sides than 2+ years of healing. Since then, I've had days where I had 100% functionality of my cognitive abilities, although inconsistent. I've been able to acquire more GHB and plan to do another "cycle".

The reason GHB can very helpful, is not only that it relaxes the body, promotes deep sleep, but that it actually increases levels of the neurosteroids we are missing.

"In male Wistar rats, GHB dose-dependently (75-1000 mg/kg, i.p.) increased AP, THDOC and their precursors pregnenolone and progesterone in brain cortex and hippocampus. The increases of AP (4-5 fold) and THDOC (3-4 fold)"

As you can see from the study above, this is huge, and likely the mechanism behind why some users have recovered from PFS. We're talking increases of Allo and THDOC by 3-5 FOLD, along with the precursors. Some users claimed to be cured from both mental and physical sides by using GHB. Using 5a-dhp is also great, but doesn't address THDOC which is key. @haidut Does the use of 5a-dhp increase 5ar? I remember reading somewhere that by taking 5a-dhp, it promotes its own synthesis and increases 5ar. Can you confirm this?

Moving on, I truly believe GHB for finasteride deserves a thread on its own here and can help a ton of people. The issue is that it is an illegal substance and difficult to find. However, the materials used to create GHB are legal and quite easy to obtain. A few simple google searches and any noobie could be brewing up their own GHB in no time.

I will update you all on my PFS journey using GHB and I might make a thread. Following a 100% carnivorous diet and GHB have taken me from rock-bottom to 70-80% recovery quite quickly.

 

[bk_]

Trying to bring this thread back to life as I have personal experience with GHB. I've used it a few times and feel that it greatly improved my PFS symptoms. Although I am not 100%, I plan to begin using it again.

The whole theory here is that 5ar is not functioning or at too low levels in the brain/cns and lowers all of the neurosteroids involved with it.

As you can see below, inhibiting 5ar is impacting Allo, DHDOC, THDOC as well as Androstanediol to a degree. All these play a role in our ability to deal with stress via GABA:

This leads us to GHB, which a weeks use did more for my mental sides than 2+ years of healing. Since then, I've had days where I had 100% functionality of my cognitive abilities, although inconsistent. I've been able to acquire more GHB and plan to do another "cycle".

The reason GHB can very helpful, is not only that it relaxes the body, promotes deep sleep, but that it actually increases levels of the neurosteroids we are missing.

"In male Wistar rats, GHB dose-dependently (75-1000 mg/kg, i.p.) increased AP, THDOC and their precursors pregnenolone and progesterone in brain cortex and hippocampus. The increases of AP (4-5 fold) and THDOC (3-4 fold)"

As you can see from the study above, this is huge, and likely the mechanism behind why some users have recovered from PFS. We're talking increases of Allo and THDOC by 3-5 FOLD, along with the precursors. Some users claimed to be cured from both mental and physical sides by using GHB. Using 5a-dhp is also great, but doesn't address THDOC which is key. @haidut Does the use of 5a-dhp increase 5ar? I remember reading somewhere that by taking 5a-dhp, it promotes its own synthesis and increases 5ar. Can you confirm this?

Moving on, I truly believe GHB for finasteride deserves a thread on its own here and can help a ton of people. The issue is that it is an illegal substance and difficult to find. However, the materials use to create GHB are legal and quite easy to obtain. A few simple google searches and any noobie could be brewing up their own GHB in no time.

I will update you all on my PFS journey using GHB and I might make a thread. Following a 100% carnivorous diet and GHB have taken me from rock-bottom to 70-80% recovery quite quickly.

Interesting, GHB is used as a general anaesthetic and there have been two stories of PFSers experiencing full recoveries of their symptoms after surgery...

 

[MCurtone]

Interesting, GHB is used as a general anaesthetic and there have been two stories of PFSers experiencing full recoveries of their symptoms after surgery...

Can you link me the stories of the individuals recovering after surgery? I've seen 2 or 3 people on other forums claim they were cured from using GHB, not from surgery use, but for sleeping issues. They used GHB in the form of Xyrem, a difficult to obtain sleeping medication. Generally a sleep-study is required for its prescription. Individuals reported feeling completely rested, waking up and no longer having that dreaded brain-fog and cognitive issues. GHB is really a wonderful substance if used correctly.

 

[bk_]

Can you link me the stories of the individuals recovering after surgery? I've seen 2 or 3 people on other forums claim they were cured from using GHB, not from surgery use, but for sleeping issues. They used GHB in the form of Xyrem, a difficult to obtain sleeping medication. Generally a sleep-study is required for its prescription. Individuals reported feeling completely rested, waking up and no longer having that dreaded brain-fog and cognitive issues. GHB is really a wonderful substance if used correctly.

Correction: I thought it was different people but all the stories were of the same person:
SolvePFS

SolvePFS

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Lurked here a bit and thought I'd share my journey for which I've been keeping a log on Reddit. Oddly enough, "bloom" and I had thoughts regarding the implication of 5aR around the same time, with my post just a day before. I do not have the honed intelligence or incredible memory of most of you, with my musings being very abstract and conceptual... and in some places probably very wrong. Most of you have an enormously detailed grasp of the biology behind this, while I can only push around things from the "big picture" perspective. However, I have made recent, significant progress with Butea, and although I have ordered 5a-DHP and Pansterone, I have chosen to wholly throw my efforts into timing and dosing experiments with this specific herb.

Anyway, it is a verbose read, and as mentioned, you will likely find errors in my thinking. I simply do not have the knowledge that most of you possess, and thanks to our friend "brain fog," I have had to adapt in other ways in order to try and tackle our problem... mainly through excruciatingly slow trial and error. Here is my log, and I plan on continuing my current regimen, focusing solely on Butea in combination with a few other things I mention:

Possible Remediation for PFS Sufferers • r/tressless

p.s. You will have to read my updates in reverse for them to make sense.

I’m post Accutane but have also had good results with Butea Superba

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Yeah, Marcel and I talked about this a few times. He mega dosed it before, he could probably share his experience. You notice and improvement in mental function with the butea? That is the last area I can't seem to fully knock out yet.

I noticed cognitive/libido improvements. In fact, while I was taking it I had one of my most successful semesters in terms of grades.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Lurked here a bit and thought I'd share my journey for which I've been keeping a log on Reddit. Oddly enough, "bloom" and I had thoughts regarding the implication of 5aR around the same time, with my post just a day before. I do not have the honed intelligence or incredible memory of most of you, with my musings being very abstract and conceptual... and in some places probably very wrong. Most of you have an enormously detailed grasp of the biology behind this, while I can only push around things from the "big picture" perspective. However, I have made recent, significant progress with Butea, and although I have ordered 5a-DHP and Pansterone, I have chosen to wholly throw my efforts into timing and dosing experiments with this specific herb.

Anyway, it is a verbose read, and as mentioned, you will likely find errors in my thinking. I simply do not have the knowledge that most of you possess, and thanks to our friend "brain fog," I have had to adapt in other ways in order to try and tackle our problem... mainly through excruciatingly slow trial and error. Here is my log, and I plan on continuing my current regimen, focusing solely on Butea in combination with a few other things I mention:

Possible Remediation for PFS Sufferers • r/tressless

p.s. You will have to read my updates in reverse for them to make sense.

Some studies on Butea Superba
Antidepressant-like effect of Butea superba in mice exposed to chronic mild stress and its possible mechanism of action. - PubMed - NCBI
Butea superba-induced amelioration of cognitive and emotional deficits in olfactory bulbectomized mice and putative mechanisms underlying its actions - PubMed - NCBI

There is also the infamous Thai male study.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

@bloom I understand the reasoning behind targeting the brain but if one has low serum DHT levels would it not be just as wise to target both? What I’m saying is that if your DHT is high or normal in serum then yes target the brain but if it’s low or below range would it not be wise to target both.

 

[Alpha]

I think PFS is a glucocorticoid receptor element and glucocorticoid resistance issue.

Maybe hsp90 inhibitors would be a possible cure.