Thiamine and Co-Factors

[equipoise]

thiamine hcl gives me this unbelievably horrible body odor. Its like chemical waste And it literally holds on to my clothes I think I have to dump some of them.

A single application of topical Energin (say 8-10 drops) in the morning will make me smell like B vitamins (gf said it's awful many times) for a couple of days.
I really like Energin tho, I feel topical Works better for me because the First 80% absorbs in an hour or so and then the rest is kind of sustained release..But the smell is just too much, so I usually take it in a glass of Coke or sublingually. But sublingually also makes my breath smell like vitamins sometimes.

 

[Bart1]

if you have sibo most probiotics are a no no except saccharomyces boullardii, which is a beneficial fungus. It helped me also. Some probiotics made me worse. Do you have symptoms of sibo(discomfort, gas, bloating after fodmap foods, brain fog, etc )? But don’t except anything magical from probiotics. They should be applied only when your gut is somewhat healed and stable. Also removing problematic foods and reducing stress (too much exercise is a no also) is paramount.

I think I have something like that and or leaky gut. I have tried probiotics but so far most of them make my symptoms worse. But I actually believe one has to balance the gut. I'm maybe a bit anti Peat in this, but 2-3 years on low fiber/fruit etc hasn't helped and created a horrible gut. My theory is that a (functional) Thiamin deficiency plays a role there, that's why I want to try high dose thiamin.

 

[Bart1]

It's a bit of a job to sort out. Coagulens supposedly inhabits the small intestine where it metabolizes carbs before they reach the large intestine and are fermented there by bacteria that produce D-lactate, which is hard for the body to metabolize (potentially causing acidosis). Coagulens only produces L-lactate which is easy for the body to handle. I will be experimenting with probiotics that only produce L-lactate. Lactobacillus bulgaricus and streptococcus thermophilus are two that are used in Bulgarian yogurts and maybe some other yogurts too.

I have read that subtilis produces thiaminase, but have also read research that indicated it wasn't significant. The problem I see with megasporebiotics is that the dose per species per capsule is so low. I'd have to take 15 capsules of it to match what I get from one of my coagulens caps.

thank you!The bulgaria yoghurt sounds interesting! I did feel very dizzy o the megasporebiotics, I after three weeks I was on 2 capsules per day and it only got worse, first I thought die off/herxheimer but after three weeks that seems excessive.

 

[Bart1]

btw, anyone ever looked into this study, about thiamin as the cause of fatty liver ?

Fatty Livers as a Result of Thiamin Administration in Vitamin B1 Deficiency of the Rat and the Chick: Four Figures

Summary and Conclusions. When thiamin was administered to vitamin B1 deficient chicks or rats hydropic degeneration and fatty metamorphosis occurred in the pare

academic.oup.com

 

[stsfut]

btw, anyone ever looked into this study, about thiamin as the cause of fatty liver ?

Fatty Livers as a Result of Thiamin Administration in Vitamin B1 Deficiency of the Rat and the Chick: Four Figures

Summary and Conclusions. When thiamin was administered to vitamin B1 deficient chicks or rats hydropic degeneration and fatty metamorphosis occurred in the pare

academic.oup.com

This is weird. But it says NDT prevents it?

 

[Bart1]

This is weird. But it says NDT prevents it?

another study says the opposite

 

[stsfut]

another study says the opposite

It’s not letting me open it

 

[Bart1]

It’s not letting me open it

High-dose vitamin B1 therapy prevents the development of experimental fatty liver driven by overnutrition - PubMed

Fatty liver is an abnormal metabolic condition of excess intrahepatic fat. This condition, referred to as hepatic steatosis, is tightly associated with chronic liver disease and systemic metabolic morbidity. The most prevalent form in humans, i.e. non-alcoholic fatty liver, generally develops...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[stsfut]

High-dose vitamin B1 therapy prevents the development of experimental fatty liver driven by overnutrition - PubMed

Fatty liver is an abnormal metabolic condition of excess intrahepatic fat. This condition, referred to as hepatic steatosis, is tightly associated with chronic liver disease and systemic metabolic morbidity. The most prevalent form in humans, i.e. non-alcoholic fatty liver, generally develops...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ah, thanks. I have seen this one. Weird how it had the opposite conclusion. My ultimate guess is that B1=good as long as metabolism/thyroid is good. B1 causes fatty liver in the rats who were previously depleted because of their poor metabolic rate, and NDT protected their livers. In this newer study here I think it is being used as a supplement and not to replace in some unnatural rat experiment.

 

[mad539]

I just wondered why my HbA1c was high while eating low carb back then:

I never ate more than 80gr of carbs, just fats and protein, but my blood glucose was 114mg/dL and HbA1c is highish at 5.6.

Could it be another proof that my body couldn't utilize glucose because of a B1 deficency?

 

[Bart1]

Ah, thanks. I have seen this one. Weird how it had the opposite conclusion. My ultimate guess is that B1=good as long as metabolism/thyroid is good. B1 causes fatty liver in the rats who were previously depleted because of their poor metabolic rate, and NDT protected their livers. In this newer study here I think it is being used as a supplement and not to replace in some unnatural rat experiment.

Yes I also think (high) b1 can be problematic when using it in isolation and not with the other B vitamins..

 

[mostlylurking]

Anybody know how long one has to be on thiamin if you suspect a more serious deficiency? I was taking about 200-300mgs a day but backed off it (can’t remember why), and I seem to get more and more neurological symptoms again.
I was thinking if one quits during refeeding of this nutrient it might make things worse? So you really should not suddenly quit when you still need it! But how do you know when you could taper off if ever?

I have been working to correct my thiamine deficiency/blockage issue since November 2020. I started with 200mg of thiamine HCI and increased the dose over several months. I found Dr. Costantini's website, read his FAQ's, and massively increased my thiamine HCI dosage the first of February from 500 mg to 2 grams/day. I have experienced tremendous improvement. My gut issues resolved in two days. My inflammation also resolved in my pelvis/hip joints. My inflammation in my upper back/shoulder, brought on by an injury in October 2020 is taking a little longer.

link to Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy
link to the FAQ's: FAQ
link to Dr. Costantini's published articles: Published Study Articles

Although Dr. Costantini's most frequently prescribed dose of thiamine HCI is 4 grams/day for his Italian patients, or two injections of 100mg/week, he states that for people of white anglo saxon heritage it usually takes half that dose (2 grams instead of 4 grams).

In the FAQs, there is a side effect that is discussed which is pins and needles shooting pains in the thighs. Dr. Costantini states that if that happens it means the dose is too high and to back off to the prior dose. I got these pains when I increased my dose to 2.5grams/day so I settled on 2 grams which is working well for me and I am continuing to improve.

Please note that I have suffered from IBS, leaky gut, SIBO, multiple food sensitivities, multiple environmental and chemical sensitivities, etc. since the early 1990's. This has been a very long tiring journey. I am very excited that I have finally found the solution to my problem.

 

[Bart1]

I have been working to correct my thiamine deficiency/blockage issue since November 2020. I started with 200mg of thiamine HCI and increased the dose over several months. I found Dr. Costantini's website, read his FAQ's, and massively increased my thiamine HCI dosage the first of February from 500 mg to 2 grams/day. I have experienced tremendous improvement. My gut issues resolved in two days. My inflammation also resolved in my pelvis/hip joints. My inflammation in my upper back/shoulder, brought on by an injury in October 2020 is taking a little longer.

link to Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy
link to the FAQ's: FAQ
link to Dr. Costantini's published articles: Published Study Articles

Although Dr. Costantini's most frequently prescribed dose of thiamine HCI is 4 grams/day for his Italian patients, or two injections of 100mg/week, he states that for people of white anglo saxon heritage it usually takes half that dose (2 grams instead of 4 grams).

In the FAQs, there is a side effect that is discussed which is pins and needles shooting pains in the thighs. Dr. Costantini states that if that happens it means the dose is too high and to back off to the prior dose. I got these pains when I increased my dose to 2.5grams/day so I settled on 2 grams which is working well for me and I am continuing to improve.

Please note that I have suffered from IBS, leaky gut, SIBO, multiple food sensitivities, multiple environmental and chemical sensitivities, etc. since the early 1990's. This has been a very long tiring journey. I am very excited that I have finally found the solution to my problem.

Wow thank you so much for sharing. I have a very high suspicion most of my problems come from a long standing thiamin deficiency. I have tried to go to 300mg of thiamin hcl per day (dividend over 3 meals). It gave me immediate energy, felt great. I can't remember why I tapered of a bit. It did not solve my digestive issue. Going back later to 300mg again gave me more dizzy spells then I normally have. I started TTFD recently. The first days I noticed improvements of some of my systems but later on I get a worsening of my symptoms. It might be the refeeding paradox dr Lonsdale speaks about. It could also be problems with handling of the sulfur. I have bought a b complex and taking some more glycine and taurine and hope I will be better equipped to handle the sulfur, otherwise might switch back to hcl form and try to build it up more gradually. Have you ever experimented with the TTFD form ? Did you take other b vitamins along with it ? Did you cut down on sugar ?

 

[Nomane Euger]

I have been working to correct my thiamine deficiency/blockage issue since November 2020. I started with 200mg of thiamine HCI and increased the dose over several months. I found Dr. Costantini's website, read his FAQ's, and massively increased my thiamine HCI dosage the first of February from 500 mg to 2 grams/day. I have experienced tremendous improvement. My gut issues resolved in two days. My inflammation also resolved in my pelvis/hip joints. My inflammation in my upper back/shoulder, brought on by an injury in October 2020 is taking a little longer.

link to Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy
link to the FAQ's: FAQ
link to Dr. Costantini's published articles: Published Study Articles

Although Dr. Costantini's most frequently prescribed dose of thiamine HCI is 4 grams/day for his Italian patients, or two injections of 100mg/week, he states that for people of white anglo saxon heritage it usually takes half that dose (2 grams instead of 4 grams).

In the FAQs, there is a side effect that is discussed which is pins and needles shooting pains in the thighs. Dr. Costantini states that if that happens it means the dose is too high and to back off to the prior dose. I got these pains when I increased my dose to 2.5grams/day so I settled on 2 grams which is working well for me and I am continuing to improve.

Please note that I have suffered from IBS, leaky gut, SIBO, multiple food sensitivities, multiple environmental and chemical sensitivities, etc. since the early 1990's. This has been a very long tiring journey. I am very excited that I have finally found the solution to my problem.

Was that the lonely change you made when you upped the dose of thiamine supplementation or was there others factors?

 

[mostlylurking]

Was that the lonely change you made when you upped the dose of thiamine supplementation or was there others factors?

I cut back on my coffee, down to 12 oz max/day, many days without any. Also around that same time I started spacing my thyroid supplement at least 1 hour before having any milk. The calcium in the milk was blocking the thyroid med. The reaction was very fast, usually within 30 minutes I felt very hypothyroid. I also increased my magnesium glycinate up to 1500mg/day. I increased my orange juice intake.

 

[mostlylurking]

Wow thank you so much for sharing. I have a very high suspicion most of my problems come from a long standing thiamin deficiency. I have tried to go to 300mg of thiamin hcl per day (dividend over 3 meals). It gave me immediate energy, felt great. I can't remember why I tapered of a bit. It did not solve my digestive issue. Going back later to 300mg again gave me more dizzy spells then I normally have. I started TTFD recently. The first days I noticed improvements of some of my systems but later on I get a worsening of my symptoms. It might be the refeeding paradox dr Lonsdale speaks about. It could also be problems with handling of the sulfur. I have bought a b complex and taking some more glycine and taurine and hope I will be better equipped to handle the sulfur, otherwise might switch back to hcl form and try to build it up more gradually. Have you ever experimented with the TTFD form ? Did you take other b vitamins along with it ? Did you cut down on sugar ?

Thiamine lowers blood sugar. When I experienced feeling awful I drank 12 oz of orange juice with some magnesium (500mg) and the feeling would pass within 30 minutes. I am no longer experiencing this issue, or it has gotten very rare.

I could not tolerate the TTFD; it gave me a headache that lasted 36 hours. I went back to the thiamine HCI. Eliot Overton has very good videos about thiamine on youtube. Well worth the time to watch them. He uses TTFD in his practice. The TTFD afficiandos say it is the only thiamine that crosses the blood brain barrier. I then found Dr. Costantini's site. He only prescribes thiamine HCI to his patients. He says this is because it is the only thiamine that gets into the neurons. For me, the thiamine HCI has resolved my intensely foggy brain and I can function again.

The TTFD people (Dr. Lonsdale followers) think sugar is evil and must be avoided like the plague. Dr. Costantini says to just eat a healthy diet and it's OK to have a glass of wine (it's Italy after all). I cut out white sugar and increased my orange juice and maple syrup. I've been following Ray Peat too long to believe that sugar is evil. The goal is to take thiamine to improve oxidative metabolism which burns sugar. If you avoid sugar like the plague how does that improve oxidative metabolism? I think that cutting out all sugar will increase the stress hormones. So I'm drinking about a quart of orange juice a day and having maybe 2-4 tablespoons of maple syrup and some marmalade. No gummies, no white sugar (except in my one cup of coffee). I eat a lot of dairy.

I'm taking a b-complex vitamin, plus additional niacinamide and riboflavin. I'm taking about 1500mg/day of magnesium glycinate.

There are more problems with side effects with TTFD than with thiamine HCI. Here is Eliot Overton's video about thiamine side effects:


Dr. Chandler Marrs' website Hormones Mattter has a lot of helpful information. She co-authored Dr. Lonsdale's book. There's a good search engine at the top.

 

[Bart1]

Thiamine lowers blood sugar. When I experienced feeling awful I drank 12 oz of orange juice with some magnesium (500mg) and the feeling would pass within 30 minutes. I am no longer experiencing this issue, or it has gotten very rare.

I could not tolerate the TTFD; it gave me a headache that lasted 36 hours. I went back to the thiamine HCI. Eliot Overton has very good videos about thiamine on youtube. Well worth the time to watch them. He uses TTFD in his practice. The TTFD afficiandos say it is the only thiamine that crosses the blood brain barrier. I then found Dr. Costantini's site. He only prescribes thiamine HCI to his patients. He says this is because it is the only thiamine that gets into the neurons. For me, the thiamine HCI has resolved my intensely foggy brain and I can function again.

The TTFD people (Dr. Lonsdale followers) think sugar is evil and must be avoided like the plague. Dr. Costantini says to just eat a healthy diet and it's OK to have a glass of wine (it's Italy after all). I cut out white sugar and increased my orange juice and maple syrup. I've been following Ray Peat too long to believe that sugar is evil. The goal is to take thiamine to improve oxidative metabolism which burns sugar. If you avoid sugar like the plague how does that improve oxidative metabolism? I think that cutting out all sugar will increase the stress hormones. So I'm drinking about a quart of orange juice a day and having maybe 2-4 tablespoons of maple syrup and some marmalade. No gummies, no white sugar (except in my one cup of coffee). I eat a lot of dairy.

I'm taking a b-complex vitamin, plus additional niacinamide and riboflavin. I'm taking about 1500mg/day of magnesium glycinate.

There are more problems with side effects with TTFD than with thiamine HCI. Here is Eliot Overton's video about thiamine side effects:


Dr. Chandler Marrs' website Hormones Mattter has a lot of helpful information. She co-authored Dr. Lonsdale's book. There's a good search engine at the top.

Thanks again for your detailed response. I am planning an appointment met elliot. I agree that simply cutting out carbs is not the solution!

 

[charlie]

I'm taking a b-complex vitamin

Which b-complex are you taking?

 

[mostlylurking]

Which b-complex are you taking?

this one: B-Complex Plus - 120 Capsules

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks again for your detailed response. I am planning an appointment met elliot. I agree that simply cutting out carbs is not the solution!

You're welcome. I also found watching the videos of patients' progress on Dr. Costantini's youtube channel very helpful. link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwsHIcP_h6QVWwd4uRg-HDQ/videos

The order is a little scrambled. Pick a patient (they're numbered) and choose the earliest one then work your way through their progress. Each video is very short, less than a minute. Patient #5 is amazing. There is also an interview (subtitles in English) of Patient #5's wife.

Note that there are younger people being helped; one is 24 years old. This is not just an old person's issue.