In Vivo Evidence For The Anticancer Effect Of Thiamine / Thoughts On TTFD

Nehring

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
7
Hey guys,

Actively reading Peat's work and subsequently the forum for the last 5 years has (like prob. most of us) inspired me to drastically re-evaluate my understanding of health, biology as well as development through the journey of perceive-think-act.

I really want to thank everyone in this community for their interesting perspectives on the above and most of all for a less authoritarian approach to learning and thought exchange, which seems to be unfortunately perpetually atrophying in “modern” society.


----------------------------------->

While venturing into the world of Allithiamine since about a half a year + reading “Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition”, I stumbled upon the study “Thiamine mimetics sulbutiamine and benfotiamine as a nutraceutical approach to anticancer therapy”, which was already mentioned by Broken man on May 8th 2020:

Thiamine mimetics sulbutiamine and benfotiamine as a nutraceutical approach to anticancer therapy - ScienceDirect

The study from Jan 2020 compares the anti-cancer potential of thiamine (T), sulbutiamine (SLBT) and benfotiamine (BNFO) with DCA in an in vitro human colon cancer cell model (HCT116) and finally shows intriguing IN VIVO data from a mouse study.

Since I was quite fascinated with this study, I thought I’d share a couple of conclusions which might be worth considering.

First off, the authors speculate this study provide one of the first / if not the first “in vivo evidence for the anticancer effect of a commercially available thiamine analog”.


Part I - In vitro

  • Thiamine mediated increased pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) activity might actually be the result of thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP) mediated over-expression of pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDK)
  • When administered in vitro, the concentration of thiamine analogs are not increased, while the intracellular thiamine concentration increases approx. 500-fold through administration of SLBT and BNFO and approx. 3000-fold through administration of thiamine directly
  • The thiamine dosage needed to be 100 times greater than SLBT/BNFO dosage to achieve this effect, showing a relative superior delivery through the mimetic forms (Fig 3)
  • Interestingly, the subsequent increase in TPP is about the same for all 3 thiamine types and surprisingly only shows a modest 2-fold incline
  • Comparing the thiamine induced surge of TPP concentration with the profound effects of DCA shows a similar reduction in phosphorylated PDH and thus greater PDH activity (Fig 4)
  • The TPP transporter SLC44A4 “demonstrates strong up-regulation in malignant cells”, whereas healthy tissue doesn’t seem to express this up-regulation.
    --> I found this very interesting and in my point of view this could be taken as an argument for both sides of the “evil cancer vs. stressed cell” debate.
    • On the one hand, one could argue that this is yet another vicious attempt of the evil cancer to gain more access to TPP floating around in the extracellular space (e.g. produced by microbiota) in order to further fuel its demonic ever increasing proliferation.
    • On the other hand this could be interpreted as a “cry” for help of the stressed cell, which is not able to resuscitate proper OXPHOS of glucose by itself and thus over-expresses the ability to externally assist in PDK inhibition -> revive the glycolysis - TCA link reaction

Part II - In vivo

  • The in vivo results show a reduction in tumor growth of both SLBT and BNFO, though BNFO shows a remarkable higher tumor growth reduction than SLBT and it looks like (chart B) between days 35 and 40 tumor growth in the SLBT treated group is stunted!
  • What seems inconsistent with the in vitro findings is the fact that “Neither sulbutiamine nor benfotiamine significantly changed PDH phosphorylation or lactate levels measured in tumor tissue isolated” though the anti-proliferative effects where still induced. The authors speculate that “the increase in TPP achieved by our in vivo dosing paradigm may not have been substantial enough to sufficiently inhibit PDK”.
    --> Still trying to wrap my head around this, especially the non-significant lactate inhibition.

It should be acknowledged, that this study was co-financed by the American Cancer Society and that the authors are initiating their conclusion with “Considering their presumable safety and notable pre-clinical anticancer effects, exploiting pharmacologic doses of nutraceutical compounds (i.e. vitamins) provides a promising strategy for cancer therapy” and even go on acknowledging Pauling as well as pharmacologic treatment with ascorbate!

This makes one hope for the exploration of actually sane anti-cancer approaches, though unfortunately I'm pessimistic, and you guys know the reasons….


Parting thoughts on the relevance of the study to TTFD (Allithiamine) supplementation

As per Dr. Lonsdale’s and Chandler Marrs’s book “Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition” (really worth a read!), TTFD enters the cell as normal thiamine after its prosthetic group has been removed. This mechanism supposedly drastically improves bio-availability. TTFD could therefore mimic the benchmark effects of plain thiamine as per the above study, though theoretically much lower dosages would be required due to superior absorption through the gut. Also, TTFD apparently crosses the blood brain barrier, whereas benfotiamine dose not, so one can only speculate about the possible superior anti-tumor growth effects in a brain cancer model.

As to the superiority of TTFD over thiamine hydrochloride, Chandler and Dr. Lonsdale provide some context. In their perspective in case of metabolic derangement and thus down-regulation of key enzymes and transporters (for the non-Lings under us), synthetic thiamine mimetics like TTFD can provide relief where salt forms of thiamine don’t seem to be able to revive oxidative metabolism.

The proof for the justification of substantially higher prices is in the pudding but anecdotally I can attest to the fact that I had superior results specifically on digestion with TTFD.
 
Last edited:

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,492
Location
USA / Europe
Hey guys,

Actively reading Peat's work and subsequently the forum for the last 5 years has (like prob. most of us) inspired me to drastically re-evaluate my understanding of health, biology as well as development through the journey of perceive-think-act.

I really want to thank everyone in this community for their interesting perspectives on the above and most of all for a less authoritarian approach to learning and thought exchange, which seems to be unfortunately perpetually atrophying in “modern” society.


----------------------------------->

While venturing into the world of Allithiamine since about a half a year + reading “Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition”, I stumbled upon the study “Thiamine mimetics sulbutiamine and benfotiamine as a nutraceutical approach to anticancer therapy”, which was already mentioned by Broken man on May 8th 2020:

Thiamine mimetics sulbutiamine and benfotiamine as a nutraceutical approach to anticancer therapy - ScienceDirect

The study from Jan 2020 compares the anti-cancer potential of thiamine (T), sulbutiamine (SLBT) and benfotiamine (BNFO) with DCA in an in vitro human colon cancer cell model (HCT116) and finally shows intriguing IN VIVO data from a mouse study.

Since I was quite fascinated with this study, I thought I’d share a couple of conclusions which might be worth considering.

First off, the authors speculate this study provide one of the first / if not the first “in vivo evidence for the anticancer effect of a commercially available thiamine analog”.


Part I - In vitro

  • Thiamine mediated increased pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) activity might actually be the result of thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP) mediated over-expression of pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDK)
  • When administered in vitro, the concentration of thiamine analogs are not increased, while the intracellular thiamine concentration increases approx. 500-fold through administration of SLBT and BNFO and approx. 3000-fold through administration of thiamine directly
  • The thiamine dosage needed to be 100 times greater than SLBT/BNFO dosage to achieve this effect, showing a relative superior delivery through the mimetic forms (Fig 3)
  • Interestingly, the subsequent increase in TPP is about the same for all 3 thiamine types and surprisingly only shows a modest 2-fold incline
  • Comparing the thiamine induced surge of TPP concentration with the profound effects of DCA shows a similar reduction in phosphorylated PDH and thus greater PDH activity (Fig 4)
  • The TPP transporter SLC44A4 “demonstrates strong up-regulation in malignant cells”, whereas healthy tissue doesn’t seem to express this up-regulation.
    --> I found this very interesting and in my point of view this could be taken as an argument for both sides of the “evil cancer vs. stressed cell” debate.
    • On the one hand, one could argue that this is yet another vicious attempt of the evil cancer to gain more access to TPP floating around in the extracellular space (e.g. produced by microbiota) in order to further fuel its demonic ever increasing proliferation.
    • On the other hand this could be interpreted as a “cry” for help of the stressed cell, which is not able to resuscitate proper OXPHOS of glucose by itself and thus over-expresses the ability to externally assist in PDK inhibition -> revive the glycolysis - TCA link reaction

Part II - In vivo

  • The in vivo results show a reduction in tumor growth of both SLBT and BNFO, though BNFO shows a remarkable higher tumor growth reduction than SLBT and it looks like (chart B) between days 35 and 40 tumor growth in the SLBT treated group is stunted!
  • What seems inconsistent with the in vitro findings is the fact that “Neither sulbutiamine nor benfotiamine significantly changed PDH phosphorylation or lactate levels measured in tumor tissue isolated” though the anti-proliferative effects where still induced. The authors speculate that “the increase in TPP achieved by our in vivo dosing paradigm may not have been substantial enough to sufficiently inhibit PDK”.
    --> Still trying to wrap my head around this, especially the non-significant lactate inhibition.

It should be acknowledged, that this study was co-financed by the American Cancer Society and that the authors are initiating their conclusion with “Considering their presumable safety and notable pre-clinical anticancer effects, exploiting pharmacologic doses of nutraceutical compounds (i.e. vitamins) provides a promising strategy for cancer therapy” and even go on acknowledging Pauling as well as pharmacologic treatment with ascorbate!

This makes one hope for the exploration of actually sane anti-cancer approaches, though unfortunately I'm pessimistic, and you guys know the reasons….


Parting thoughts on the relevance of the study to TTFD (Allithiamine) supplementation

As per Dr. Lonsdale’s and Chandler Marrs’s book “Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition” (really worth a read!), TTFD enters the cell as normal thiamine after its prosthetic group has been removed. This mechanism supposedly drastically improves bio-availability. TTFD could therefore mimic the benchmark effects of plain thiamine as per the above study, though theoretically much lower dosages would be required due to superior absorption through the gut. Also, TTFD apparently crosses the blood brain barrier, whereas benfotiamine dose not, so one can only speculate about the possible superior anti-tumor growth effects in a brain cancer model.

As to the superiority of TTFD over thiamine hydrochloride, Chandler and Dr. Lonsdale provide some context. In their perspective in case of metabolic derangement and thus down-regulation of key enzymes and transporters (for the non-Lings under us), synthetic thiamine mimetics like TTFD can provide relief where salt forms of thiamine don’t seem to be able to revive oxidative metabolism.

The proof for the justification of substantially higher prices is in the pudding but anecdotally I can attest to the fact that I had superior results specifically on digestion with TTFD.

Excellent news! I am not very keen on the study being done by ACS, because they are known to lie and design studies maliciously in a way to subvert nutritional therapies for cancer, but I guess it's good news regardless since more people will be drawn to the idea of treating cancer through metabolic modulation. Btw, despite their claim, not only there are other (albeit, few) in-vivo studies with thiamine for cancer but it effectiveness has already been observed in humans. Here is a thread about some of them.
Thiamine Treats Cancer In Humans, Its Deficiency May Cause Cancer

It's a shame they did not try regular thiamine in-vivo as well. I suspect it would have actually been more effective for cancer inhibition, as demonstrated by the effects on humans in the thread above.
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
475
Excellent news! I am not very keen on the study being done by ACS, because they are known to lie and design studies maliciously in a way to subvert nutritional therapies for cancer, but I guess it's good news regardless since more people will be drawn to the idea of treating cancer through metabolic modulation. Btw, despite their claim, not only there are other (albeit, few) in-vivo studies with thiamine for cancer but it effectiveness has already been observed in humans. Here is a thread about some of them.
Thiamine Treats Cancer In Humans, Its Deficiency May Cause Cancer

It's a shame they did not try regular thiamine in-vivo as well. I suspect it would have actually been more effective for cancer inhibition, as demonstrated by the effects on humans in the thread above.
I've had a few rough months because of a thiamine deficiency. I had high lactic acid and hurt all over. My T3 was high out of range on the blood test and I could not get my temperature above 98 degrees. I felt really hypothyroid. I had brain issues as well; brain fog, sense of tight band around my head, just slammed to my chair unable to do much of anything. I tried a dose of 275 mg thiamine hcl. My temperature went up to 99 degrees (from 98 degrees) and the inflammation pain disappeared in about 45 minutes. I ordered some TTFD thiamine to try and while I waited for delivery, I took 275 mg thiamine hcl and about 1200 mg magnesium three times a day. I also ate carrot salad and mushrooms every day. A week later, when the TTFD thiamine arrived, my brain issues had pretty much resolved and I had the inflammation under control. That evening, I took one 50 mg tablet of the TTFD thiamine, with magnesium. I had a horrible night, woke up at 2:00AM with a headache that did not subside for 24 hours.

I think I'll just stick with the thiamine HCL. Although it wasn't an overnight fix, it is working for me. The sales pitch for the TTFD is that it gets through the blood brain barrier. The thiamine HCL resolved my head symptoms but it wasn't overnight. I am aware that my balance is better and I am getting some creative thoughts again. It's been a long time. I've been using the thiamine HCL in the dose described above for a couple of weeks now, always with the magnesium. My temperature has normalized and I no longer feel hypothyroid.
 

Nighteyes

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
368
Location
Europe
I've had a few rough months because of a thiamine deficiency. I had high lactic acid and hurt all over. My T3 was high out of range on the blood test and I could not get my temperature above 98 degrees. I felt really hypothyroid. I had brain issues as well; brain fog, sense of tight band around my head, just slammed to my chair unable to do much of anything. I tried a dose of 275 mg thiamine hcl. My temperature went up to 99 degrees (from 98 degrees) and the inflammation pain disappeared in about 45 minutes. I ordered some TTFD thiamine to try and while I waited for delivery, I took 275 mg thiamine hcl and about 1200 mg magnesium three times a day. I also ate carrot salad and mushrooms every day. A week later, when the TTFD thiamine arrived, my brain issues had pretty much resolved and I had the inflammation under control. That evening, I took one 50 mg tablet of the TTFD thiamine, with magnesium. I had a horrible night, woke up at 2:00AM with a headache that did not subside for 24 hours.

I think I'll just stick with the thiamine HCL. Although it wasn't an overnight fix, it is working for me. The sales pitch for the TTFD is that it gets through the blood brain barrier. The thiamine HCL resolved my head symptoms but it wasn't overnight. I am aware that my balance is better and I am getting some creative thoughts again. It's been a long time. I've been using the thiamine HCL in the dose described above for a couple of weeks now, always with the magnesium. My temperature has normalized and I no longer feel hypothyroid.
Great! What type of magnesium did/do you use?
 

Nehring

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
7
I've had a few rough months because of a thiamine deficiency. I had high lactic acid and hurt all over. My T3 was high out of range on the blood test and I could not get my temperature above 98 degrees. I felt really hypothyroid. I had brain issues as well; brain fog, sense of tight band around my head, just slammed to my chair unable to do much of anything. I tried a dose of 275 mg thiamine hcl. My temperature went up to 99 degrees (from 98 degrees) and the inflammation pain disappeared in about 45 minutes. I ordered some TTFD thiamine to try and while I waited for delivery, I took 275 mg thiamine hcl and about 1200 mg magnesium three times a day. I also ate carrot salad and mushrooms every day. A week later, when the TTFD thiamine arrived, my brain issues had pretty much resolved and I had the inflammation under control. That evening, I took one 50 mg tablet of the TTFD thiamine, with magnesium. I had a horrible night, woke up at 2:00AM with a headache that did not subside for 24 hours.

I think I'll just stick with the thiamine HCL. Although it wasn't an overnight fix, it is working for me. The sales pitch for the TTFD is that it gets through the blood brain barrier. The thiamine HCL resolved my head symptoms but it wasn't overnight. I am aware that my balance is better and I am getting some creative thoughts again. It's been a long time. I've been using the thiamine HCL in the dose described above for a couple of weeks now, always with the magnesium. My temperature has normalized and I no longer feel hypothyroid.
Sounds like thiamine HCL is working for you! Are you saying you took a total magnesium dose of 3600 mg per day? Can't imagine taking so much magnesium without major laxative effects. I would also be interested in what type you took?

The sales pitch for TTFD (as you probably already know) goes beyond the bbb issue and involves the circumvention of thiamine transport into the cell though the disulfide mercaptan group (TFD) as well as supposed heavy metal chelation abilities.

I deliberately ordered the bulk form of TTFD in order to avoid fillers and experimented with it over the summer.
As far as your headache situation is concerned my first suspicion would be adjuvants like silica or a blood sugar plunge after TTFD ingestion. Did you have fuel on board? I did not experience those issues so far.

In any case I would probably stick to the HCL form if you get a good responce from it since it is so widely available and much cheaper.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debate about TTFD toxicity
Recently I stumbled upon a TTFD - toxicity claim of Andy Cutler on the following website: Re: Just Started Chelation...Need Advice

"The "TFD" in TTFD is tetrahydrofurfuryl mercaptan, and we have been discussing its toxicity. Since that hasn't been studied I looked for the toxicity of similar compounds and found some information. There are other questions that are unanswerable with the particular compounds I checked that are relevant. I will mention them here, but will not put a lot of time into digging for answers since it is already clear that TTFD is poison and should not be used indiscriminately as it currently is. Issue 1: TTFD has a 1 thio 2 ether structure, which is similar to the 1 chloro 2 thioether structure of mustard gas. Under physiological conditions where the mercaptan is deprotonated this may result in formation of an episulfide (a 3 membered ring with a sulfur in it) by ring opening of the ether, and this is an EXCELLENT alkylating agent and thus quite toxic, mutagenic, etc. Issue 2: ethers readily form peroxides on exposure to air. These organic peroxides are definitely very much more toxic than the parent compounds. TFD is a cyclic ether and should peroxidize just fine like all other cyclic ethers (tetrahydrofuran, a very close relative of TFD, does this readily and it is a big problem in laboratory work). How much TFD is peroxidized by the time someone uses the cream or takes a capsule?"

After writing an email to one of the TTFD merchants in Europe referencing the above criticism, I got the following asnwer:

"A of the information regarding the "toxicity" of TTFD was derived from speculation made by the late Andy Cutler. Fortunately, I can tell you that he was incorrect and was not familiar with the vast literature published in Japanese, later translated (some) on TTFD stemming from the 1960s.
The TFD mercaptan is detoxified well through the CYP liver enzymes, and some converts into inorganic sufate. The japanese demonstrated very low toxicity for this compound. There are several lines of research which would also suggest an antioxidant/mild chelator function of TFD.
Once again, TTFD (known as fursultiamine) is the main form of thiamine used by medical doctors in Japan, and is available over the counter.
That is not to say that some cannot develop short-term negative reactions such as sulfur-type symptoms and anxiety, but that is more related to incidicual issues processing sulfur compounds in general, and also includes garlic/allicin, and most of the organosulfur compounds in brassica/crucifer vegetables.

Hope that helps!"

Just wanted to share that here in case someone else encounters those toxicity claims and gets concerned.
I will probably stick to TTFD but will also actively research more about the detoxification of the TFD mercaptan group. Any new intel will be shared here of course.

I think it is important to ongoingly expose oneself to the other side so as to not end up in a confirmation bias - echo chamber...
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
475
Great! What type of magnesium did/do you use?
I'm using magnesium glycinate. I just got the gram scale out and weighed it; it looks like I'm taking 3-4 grams a day. Maybe that's too much? I don't know. I feel pretty good. No gut issues. I'm able to that that much magnesium because I'm pairing it with the thiamine. Thinking of lowering the dose some....
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
475
Sounds like thiamine HCL is working for you! Are you saying you took a total magnesium dose of 3600 mg per day? Can't imagine taking so much magnesium without major laxative effects. I would also be interested in what type you took?

The sales pitch for TTFD (as you probably already know) goes beyond the bbb issue and involves the circumvention of thiamine transport into the cell though the disulfide mercaptan group (TFD) as well as supposed heavy metal chelation abilities.

I deliberately ordered the bulk form of TTFD in order to avoid fillers and experimented with it over the summer.
As far as your headache situation is concerned my first suspicion would be adjuvants like silica or a blood sugar plunge after TTFD ingestion. Did you have fuel on board? I did not experience those issues so far.

In any case I would probably stick to the HCL form if you get a good responce from it since it is so widely available and much cheaper.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debate about TTFD toxicity
Recently I stumbled upon a TTFD - toxicity claim of Andy Cutler on the following website: Re: Just Started Chelation...Need Advice

"The "TFD" in TTFD is tetrahydrofurfuryl mercaptan, and we have been discussing its toxicity. Since that hasn't been studied I looked for the toxicity of similar compounds and found some information. There are other questions that are unanswerable with the particular compounds I checked that are relevant. I will mention them here, but will not put a lot of time into digging for answers since it is already clear that TTFD is poison and should not be used indiscriminately as it currently is. Issue 1: TTFD has a 1 thio 2 ether structure, which is similar to the 1 chloro 2 thioether structure of mustard gas. Under physiological conditions where the mercaptan is deprotonated this may result in formation of an episulfide (a 3 membered ring with a sulfur in it) by ring opening of the ether, and this is an EXCELLENT alkylating agent and thus quite toxic, mutagenic, etc. Issue 2: ethers readily form peroxides on exposure to air. These organic peroxides are definitely very much more toxic than the parent compounds. TFD is a cyclic ether and should peroxidize just fine like all other cyclic ethers (tetrahydrofuran, a very close relative of TFD, does this readily and it is a big problem in laboratory work). How much TFD is peroxidized by the time someone uses the cream or takes a capsule?"

After writing an email to one of the TTFD merchants in Europe referencing the above criticism, I got the following asnwer:

"A of the information regarding the "toxicity" of TTFD was derived from speculation made by the late Andy Cutler. Fortunately, I can tell you that he was incorrect and was not familiar with the vast literature published in Japanese, later translated (some) on TTFD stemming from the 1960s.
The TFD mercaptan is detoxified well through the CYP liver enzymes, and some converts into inorganic sufate. The japanese demonstrated very low toxicity for this compound. There are several lines of research which would also suggest an antioxidant/mild chelator function of TFD.
Once again, TTFD (known as fursultiamine) is the main form of thiamine used by medical doctors in Japan, and is available over the counter.
That is not to say that some cannot develop short-term negative reactions such as sulfur-type symptoms and anxiety, but that is more related to incidicual issues processing sulfur compounds in general, and also includes garlic/allicin, and most of the organosulfur compounds in brassica/crucifer vegetables.

Hope that helps!"

Just wanted to share that here in case someone else encounters those toxicity claims and gets concerned.
I will probably stick to TTFD but will also actively research more about the detoxification of the TFD mercaptan group. Any new intel will be shared here of course.

I think it is important to ongoingly expose oneself to the other side so as to not end up in a confirmation bias - echo chamber...
Thank you for this information! I'm very sensitive to sulfates. I'm also dealing with lead poisoning, tested in 2014, could not finish the chelation series, got too sick. So maybe this is why I had a bad reaction to the TTFD.

I think that I also read that the TTFD needs folate(?) to work. Maybe I'm low. I've started a B-complex that may solve the problem for me.

The supplement TTFD I bought was pure without fillers.
 

Nehring

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Thread starter
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
7
I'm using magnesium glycinate. I just got the gram scale out and weighed it; it looks like I'm taking 3-4 grams a day. Maybe that's too much? I don't know. I feel pretty good. No gut issues. I'm able to that that much magnesium because I'm pairing it with the thiamine. Thinking of lowering the dose some....
Since magnesium glycinate contains about 14% elemental magnesium you'll be ingesting somewhere in the range of 400-500mg of magnesium which I think is a reasonable dose, especially in a situation where you are getting a fair amount of calcium (dairy) and in combo with a low metabolic rate which will eventually lead to major magnesium retention issues.

I nevertheless always struggled with MaGly and I'm suspicious of most vendors and their supplement quality...
 

Nehring

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Thread starter
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
7
Thank you for this information! I'm very sensitive to sulfates. I'm also dealing with lead poisoning, tested in 2014, could not finish the chelation series, got too sick. So maybe this is why I had a bad reaction to the TTFD.

I think that I also read that the TTFD needs folate(?) to work. Maybe I'm low. I've started a B-complex that may solve the problem for me.

The supplement TTFD I bought was pure without fillers.
Dr. Lonsdale next to magnesium indeed often underlined the importance of a good b complex as well as Taurin while improving the thiamine status.

As it relates to folate status he seems to describe an inverse relationship with thiamine repletion.
In his published article: "The Dilemma of Raised Blood Levels of Folate and B12 in Autism" he writes:
"Thiamine deficiency has a major effect on ATP synthesis [4]. Folate and B12 are both required in the energy consuming transmethylation pathway. It is hypothesized that they increase in the blood because they are both in their inactive form, or that there is a defect in the transmethylation pathway from energy insufficiency."

How did you find out that you have lead poisoning? I'm interested in the topic but have no idea where to start looking for heavy metal toxicity (hair, serum, etc.). From what I've read on the forum so far it seems like chelation can be gently and sustainably achieved by good diet, protein, coffee, etc. Not sure if chelation through chemicals like ALA, DMSA, etc is the way to go and you don't seem to be alone with your statement "could not finish the chelation series, got too sick".
Hope you have gotten better since then!

Interestingly Andy Cutler doesn't seem to believe that the mercaptan group in TTFD has any chelation properties at all and even sais that Dr. Lonsdale missinterpreted his own study results. Elliot Overton once had a video on possible heavy metal chelation through TTFD which I can't find anymore and something tells me that this topic might have been to controversial...
 

Blossom

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Messages
8,560
deliberately ordered the bulk form of TTFD in order to avoid fillers and experimented with it over the summer.
May I ask where you got it in bulk?
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
475
Dr. Lonsdale next to magnesium indeed often underlined the importance of a good b complex as well as Taurin while improving the thiamine status.

As it relates to folate status he seems to describe an inverse relationship with thiamine repletion.
In his published article: "The Dilemma of Raised Blood Levels of Folate and B12 in Autism" he writes:
"Thiamine deficiency has a major effect on ATP synthesis [4]. Folate and B12 are both required in the energy consuming transmethylation pathway. It is hypothesized that they increase in the blood because they are both in their inactive form, or that there is a defect in the transmethylation pathway from energy insufficiency."

How did you find out that you have lead poisoning? I'm interested in the topic but have no idea where to start looking for heavy metal toxicity (hair, serum, etc.). From what I've read on the forum so far it seems like chelation can be gently and sustainably achieved by good diet, protein, coffee, etc. Not sure if chelation through chemicals like ALA, DMSA, etc is the way to go and you don't seem to be alone with your statement "could not finish the chelation series, got too sick".
Hope you have gotten better since then!

Interestingly Andy Cutler doesn't seem to believe that the mercaptan group in TTFD has any chelation properties at all and even sais that Dr. Lonsdale missinterpreted his own study results. Elliot Overton once had a video on possible heavy metal chelation through TTFD which I can't find anymore and something tells me that this topic might have been to controversial...
Thanks so much for this information! I have Dr. Lonsdale's book but I'm having a little trouble wading through it. I will persevere. I bought a good B-complex, took a couple of capsules, then realized it has biotin in it and I'm supposed to abstain from biotin for 2 weeks before my thyroid blood test which happens tomorrow. I thought I detected improvement while on it and will resume taking it after the blood draw. I've got some taurine around here somewhere, never used it; bought it for my husband.

I did a "chelation challenge" test to get the lead poisoning verdict. It is a chelation IV that takes about 3-4 hours, then you collect all your urine for 24 hours and send in a sample to the lab. The physician's office that did the IV specialized in chelation and had a thriving business. My test results showed my lead to be extremely high, the highest they had ever seen. I was exposed by cleaning up a filthy house after a family death. The man who helped me also was seriously compromised by lead poisoning. I did 20 out of the 40 prescribed treatments, then I was stricken with rheumatoid arthritis and could not finish.

Dr. Peat has said that if you have good thyroid function your body can get rid of heavy metals in the same way you detox other toxins. I've recently learned that thiamine will chelate out heavy metals. Maybe both are correct.

Except for the past 6 months, I have been healthier for the past 6 years (after finding Ray Peat and following his suggestions and getting my thyroid med optimized than I have been in the last 40 years. I don't plan on going back to finish the EDTA chelation treatments. There's too much concern about the chelation stirring up the heavy metal, removing it from whatever safe place the body parked it, and then having it go to the brain. I'd rather take thiamine and some natural desiccated thyroid.
 

Nehring

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Thread starter
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
7
May I ask where you got it in bulk?
I asked Ecological Formulas directly via phone (Call Toll Free: 1-800-888-4585). They were immediately open to sell it in a 250g bulk container which lets me dodge the bullets of their fillers for now...

I was really desperate to fill up my thiamine stores and felt like HCL wasn't giving me the results I was looking for.
I'm cycling it and at the moment I feel a much stronger metabolic boost with Riboflavin which tells me that the answer to at least my metabolic issues at the moment are to be found in a multi B approach with strong emphasis on B1/B2, based on the multitude of enzyme co-factor functions they are performing. It feels like I slowly transformed into a "Burr rat" by speeding up metabolism without providing the nutrition to sustain it.

I absolutely think @charlie and the other forum member's in the "The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses" thread are spot on with their observations.
 

Blossom

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Nov 23, 2013
Messages
8,560
I asked Ecological Formulas directly via phone (Call Toll Free: 1-800-888-4585). They were immediately open to sell it in a 250g bulk container which lets me dodge the bullets of their fillers for now...

I was really desperate to fill up my thiamine stores and felt like HCL wasn't giving me the results I was looking for.
I'm cycling it and at the moment I feel a much stronger metabolic boost with Riboflavin which tells me that the answer to at least my metabolic issues at the moment are to be found in a multi B approach with strong emphasis on B1/B2, based on the multitude of enzyme co-factor functions they are performing. It feels like I slowly transformed into a "Burr rat" by speeding up metabolism without providing the nutrition to sustain it.

I absolutely think @charlie and the other forum member's in the "The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses" thread are spot on with their observations.
Thank you so much! I’m going to tag a couple members who might be interested. @Regina and @managing.
 

Nehring

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Thread starter
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
7
Thanks so much for this information! I have Dr. Lonsdale's book but I'm having a little trouble wading through it. I will persevere. I bought a good B-complex, took a couple of capsules, then realized it has biotin in it and I'm supposed to abstain from biotin for 2 weeks before my thyroid blood test which happens tomorrow. I thought I detected improvement while on it and will resume taking it after the blood draw. I've got some taurine around here somewhere, never used it; bought it for my husband.

I did a "chelation challenge" test to get the lead poisoning verdict. It is a chelation IV that takes about 3-4 hours, then you collect all your urine for 24 hours and send in a sample to the lab. The physician's office that did the IV specialized in chelation and had a thriving business. My test results showed my lead to be extremely high, the highest they had ever seen. I was exposed by cleaning up a filthy house after a family death. The man who helped me also was seriously compromised by lead poisoning. I did 20 out of the 40 prescribed treatments, then I was stricken with rheumatoid arthritis and could not finish.

Dr. Peat has said that if you have good thyroid function your body can get rid of heavy metals in the same way you detox other toxins. I've recently learned that thiamine will chelate out heavy metals. Maybe both are correct.

Except for the past 6 months, I have been healthier for the past 6 years (after finding Ray Peat and following his suggestions and getting my thyroid med optimized than I have been in the last 40 years. I don't plan on going back to finish the EDTA chelation treatments. There's too much concern about the chelation stirring up the heavy metal, removing it from whatever safe place the body parked it, and then having it go to the brain. I'd rather take thiamine and some natural desiccated thyroid.
I believe biotin to be beneficial in the context of thiamine supplementation as well. Thiamine seems to stimulate the biotin dependent enzyme pyruvate carboxylase indirectly through the increased acetyl CoA production (downstream effect of the enhanced pyruvate dehydrogenase activity).

"There's too much concern about the chelation stirring up the heavy metal, removing it from whatever safe place the body parked it, and then having it go to the brain. I'd rather take thiamine and some natural desiccated thyroid."
--> Couldn't agree more, I believe slow and gentle is the way to go as long as you are not absolutely sure that you are binding and excreting all of the mobilized metals! I wish you well on your recovery journey and hope that your issues are resolving asap!
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
475
Thanks so much! I've got a supply of biotin too, somewhere.... I'll try boosting the amount a little to see if there's some benefit. There's only 400mcg of biotin in the b-complex.
 

Ellijah

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Messages
47
The beauty of all the oxidation catalysts I see is that only tiny amounts of them are needed. IIRC for B1 it is only a couple milligrams a day. Yet, while un-necessary, huge doses like 100mg are apparently well-tolerated. I once saw B1 alone totally eliminate an exacerbated case of lymphedma, within about 10 hours.
 
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