Thiamine: One Of The Main Limiting Factors For Proper Carbohydrate Metabolism

[Travis]

Well, two pineapples have about 1.4 milligrams. This is about 96% RDA.

The calories of two pineapples is about 900.

1.4mg:900Cal
1mg:643Cal

This is a natural tropical fruit ratio. I would trust this ratio. This can be rounded to 1mg:666Cal, which is a convenient number and yields 3mg:2000Cal sugar.

Wikipedia says: Human storage of thiamine is about 25 to 30 mg. [...] The enzymes transketolase, pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), and 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase (OGDH) are all important in carbohydrate metabolism.

So we need it for three steps of sugar metabolism.

But people have been given up to 300 milligrams for months without any serious effects:

Twelve hyperglycemic subjects (10 cases of impaired glucose tolerance and 2 new cases of type 2 diabetes) completed this randomized, double-blind trial, where all participants received both placebo and thiamine capsules (3 × 100 mg/day) for 6 weeks in a cross-over manner. The main endpoint was changes in 2-h plasma glucose. Fasting plasma glucose and insulin, 2-h plasma insulin, the hemostatic model assessment of insulin resistance (HOMA-IR), renal function measurement and thiamin status were also evaluated at the commencement and completion of each treatment period.

RESULTS:
Thiamine supplementation resulted in significant decrease in 2-h plasma glucose relative to baseline (8.78 ± 2.20 vs. 9.89 ± 2.50 mmol/l, p = 0.004), with no significant change in the placebo arm. Fasting plasma glucose and insulin, and HOMA-IR increased significantly from baseline after 6 weeks in the placebo arm (p = 0.003, p = 0.04 and p = 0.02, respectively). These variables did not change with thiamine supplementation. There were no significant changes in 2-h plasma insulin or renal function marker, within or between arms.

CONCLUSION/INTERPRETATION:
Supplementation with high-dose thiamine may prevent deterioration in fasting glucose and insulin, and improve glucose tolerance in patients with hyperglycemia. High-dose thiamine supplementation may prevent or slow the progression of hyperglycemia toward diabetes mellitus in individuals with impaired glucose regulation.

High-dose thiamine supplementation improves glucose tolerance in hyperglycemic individuals: a randomized, double-blind cross-over trial.

It appears to help clear (metabolize) glucose; this should be no surprise.

As a water-soluble vitamin safe up to 200x the RDA, I wouldn't be too concerned about a specific dose. Anywhere from 3 to 300 milligrams seems like a good place to start.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Well, two pineapples have about 1.4 milligrams. This is about 96% RDA.

The calories of two pineapples is about 900.

1.4mg:900Cal
1mg:643Cal

This is a natural tropical fruit ratio. I would trust this ratio. This can be rounded to 1mg:666Cal, which is a convenient number and yields 3mg:2000Cal sugar.

Wikipedia says: Human storage of thiamine is about 25 to 30 mg. [...] The enzymes transketolase, pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), and 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase (OGDH) are all important in carbohydrate metabolism.

So we need it for three steps of sugar metabolism.

But people have been given up to 300 milligrams for months without any serious effects:



High-dose thiamine supplementation improves glucose tolerance in hyperglycemic individuals: a randomized, double-blind cross-over trial.

It appears to help clear (metabolize) glucose; this should be no surprise.

As a water-soluble vitamin safe up to 200x the RDA, I wouldn't be too concerned about a specific dose. Anywhere from 3 to 300 milligrams seems like a good place to start.

I love the idea of a 1mg to 666cal ratio! currently I just take 100mg in the morning with my breakfast. I wonder if this is enough to help for the entire day (given the storage potential) or if it would be better to get a smaller dose with each meal?

 

[Amazoniac]

OBSERVATIONS ON INDUCED THIAMINE (VITAMIN B1) DEFICIENCY IN MAN

Some selected parts:

"In general, the more active subjects were the first to experience [deficiency] symptoms. The abnormalities ultimately noted in all of the subjects who were deprived of thiamine for periods of several weeks were: depressed mental states, generalized weakness, dizziness, backache, soreness of muscles, palpitation, dyspnea and precordial distress (pseudoangina) on exertion, insomnia, anorexia, nausea, vomiting, loss of weight, atony of muscles, very slight roughness of the skin, faint heart sounds, lowered blood pressure and bradycardia when at rest, with tachycardia and sinus arrhythmia on exertion. In all cases physical activity greatly decreased. Less regularly there were observed states of apathy, reawakening of psychotic trends, difficulty of thought and memory, photophobia, headache, abdominal distention, sensations of cold and heat, burning of the soles of the feet, numbness of the legs, fatigue of the ocular muscles, tenderness of the muscles of the calves and depressed tendon reflexes."

"In all cases the capacity for work, as measured with a calibrated chest weight exercising machine, fell progressively during the period of restricted intake of thiamine (fig. 1). Electrocardiographic abnormalities developed. They consisted of diminution in the amplitude of all complexes and particularly of the waves of the chest leads. In certain instances the waves became isoelectric or shallowly inverted (fig. 2)."

"In 3 of the 4 subjects who received the diet low in thiamine for prolonged periods, blood sugar (method of Miller and Van Slyke5) time curves became diabetic in type (fig. 3), and values for the concentration of bisulfite-binding substances in the blood (method of Clift and Cook6) and for lactic acid (method of Miller and Muntz7) in the blood were elevated irregularly before, but particularly after, exercise (fig. 4). In all cases gastric acidity, as determined by a test meal of 100 cc. of 7 per cent solution of alcohol, was decreased, and gastrointestinal motility as evidenced by roentgen examination after a barium meal was impaired (fig. 5)."

"Subjective improvement was observable in every case within a few hours after the initial injection of 1 mg. of thiamine hydrochloride. Nausea and vomiting ceased; food which previously had been revolting to the patient was eaten without urging; fatigue disappeared; activity was resumed, and apathy was replaced by lively interest in ward work and current events. During the eighteen days (March 9 to 26 inclusive) in which administration of thiamine hydrochloride represented the only change made, all signs and symptoms incident to the period of restriction of thiamine disappeared. The electrocardiograms became normal; the previously diabetic type of sugar tolerance curve was replaced by a normal curve; previously abnormal values for bisulfite-binding substances and lactic acid were replaced by normal values, and the previously sluggish motility of the intestinal tract was replaced by normal activity. In case 1, however, depressed tendon reflexes and weakness of the muscles of the calves persisted in a diminishing degree for several weeks."

"In [two] subjects an intake of less than 0.95 mg. of thiamine daily was associated with fatigue, irritability, poor appetite, insomnia, soreness of muscles and constipation. On the other hand, a feeling of unusual well-being associated with unusual stamina and enterprise accompanied the period (March 7 to 26) in which the intake of thiamine was at the level of 2 mg. daily ["they were strikingly more alert and attentive, and their performance with the chest weight exercise was much more satisfactory than it had been originally"]. This was followed by a letdown when the intake of thiamine was lowered by substituting the routine hospital diet for the basal diet which had been supplemented with thiamine hydrochloride. The change at this time was so striking that 1 subject begged to be returned to the basal diet."

"This constitutes strong evidence that the institutional diet, which by calculation contained approximately 0.6 to 0.8 mg. of thiamine daily, provided less than an optimal allowance of thiamine."

"Another conclusion suggested by our observations is that the isolated withdrawal of thiamine from the diet does not produce beriberi."

"We nevertheless are impressed by the degree of debility induced by the isolated withdrawal of thiamine. Fatigue, lassitude and loss of interest in food developed early and increased progressively as the period of deficiency extended, to the point of intolerance for food. So great was this intolerance that uncontrollable vomiting, even after tube feeding and parenteral injection of solutions of sodium chloride and dextrose, automatically brought the observations to a close. The time of development of symptoms and the time of development of severe symptoms differed among the subjects and seemed to be related to physical activity. The subjects who were more active showed symptoms earlier and were more seriously affected later than others who from the beginning were less energetic. In part, also, a seasonal influence may have been manifest. The period of restriction of thiamine in the earlier study began April 4, 1939, and was continued until August 30 (one hundred and forty-seven days) before the severity of anorexia and vomiting necessitated its termination. In the study reported here the period of restriction of thiamine began Dec. 12, 1939 and was continued only until March 9, 1940 (eighty-eight days) before vomiting became equally disturbing. Furthermore, none of the 4 subjects of the earlier study revealed any clear evidence of deficiency until after four or five weeks of restricted intake of thiamine, whereas all 6 subjects of the present study experienced symptoms within ten to fourteen days. The difference was striking. It suggests that a greater total metabolism provoked by low temperature or changeableness of the weather led to a relatively greater requirement for thiamine in the period of the second study."

"The disease induced by the isolated restriction of thiamine resembles minutely that disorder which the discriminating psychiatrist designates as neurasthenia. It differs from hysteria, obsessive and compulsive states, anxiety neurosis and other conditions which an undiscriminating physician commonly would lump together with neurasthenia under such designations as chronic nervous exhaustion or functional neurosis. Thus, neurasthenia, properly defined, may be less of a functional abnormality than has been supposed, and it may depend on improper nutrition of the neurons."

"Achlorhydria or hypochlorhydria, which was constant in our subjects in the period when thiamine was restricted, is likewise a frequent accompaniment of neurasthenia. Constipation became the rule in our subjects; diarrhea was infrequent or transient. Possibly long-continued use of cathartics accounts for the diarrhea and the "mucous colitis" that are frequently encountered among patients who have neurasthenia. An explanation for the constipation was found in the slow emptying of the stomach and the sluggish motility of the intestine."

"At the end of the period of deprivation of thiamine, the clinical picture presented in all our cases was that of anorexia nervosa, and this condition as one encounters it clinically is usually an end stage of more severe neurasthenia."

 

[Amazoniac]

“Thiamine (vitamin B1) forms thiamine pyrophosphate in the presence of Mg. When the latter is not available, thiamine cannot perform properly (10) (see Fig. 4). The result is an apparent thiamine deficiency, even when the body has enough or excess thiamine. The lack of performance of thiamine results in low levels of gastric acid (low levels of secretin, leading to autism), leading to increased risk of GI infections and to impaired digestion and in damage to the hypothalamus (confusion, delusions, hallucinations, disorientation, Wernicke’s encephalopathy (11), Alzheimer’s disease, etc.). The lack of Mg also leads to the formation of calcium pyrophosphate, instead of thiamine pyrophosphate. Calcium pyrophosphate can precipitate in painful crystals (pseudogout).”

 

[aguilaroja]

Brewers yeast is not only a good Thiamine source , but also a good Chromium source.
Chromium is needed by the Pancreas and for the function of Insulin.
The effect of chromium picolinate supplementation on the pancreas and macroangiopathy in type II diabetes mellitus rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Dr. Peat has mentioned repeatedly over the years his father’s success with Brewer’s yeast. He has also repeatedly expressed concern about the high phosphorous content using Brewer’s yeast over the long term.

Ray Peat, PhD on Brewer’s Yeast – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
“Brewer’s yeast has been used successfully to treat diabetes. In the 1930s, my father had severe diabetes, but after a few weeks of living on brewer’s yeast, he recovered and never had any further evidence of diabetes. Besides its high B-vitamin and protein content, yeast is an unusual food that should be sparingly used, because of its high phosphorous/calcium ratio, high potassium to sodium ratio, and high estrogen content. The insulin-producing beta cells of the pancreas have estrogen receptors, but I don’t know of any new research investigating this aspect of yeast therapy.”

Concern’s about chromium and chromium supplementation have been raised in this thread:
Dietary supplements with chromium may be carcinogenic

Bone Density: First Do No Harm [emphasis is Dr. Peat’s]
“28. Med Hypotheses 1995 Sep;45(3):241-6. Anabolic effects of insulin on bone suggest a role for chromium picolinate in preservation of bone density. McCarty MF. “Physiological levels of insulin reduce the ability of PTH to activate protein kinase C in osteoblasts, suggesting that insulin may be a physiological antagonist of bone resorption. In addition, insulin is known to promote collagen production by osteoblasts.” [I think chromium is too toxic to use as a supplement.]”

 

[managing]

Dr. Peat has mentioned repeatedly over the years his father’s success with Brewer’s yeast. He has also repeatedly expressed concern about the high phosphorous content using Brewer’s yeast over the long term.

Ray Peat, PhD on Brewer’s Yeast – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
“Brewer’s yeast has been used successfully to treat diabetes. In the 1930s, my father had severe diabetes, but after a few weeks of living on brewer’s yeast, he recovered and never had any further evidence of diabetes. Besides its high B-vitamin and protein content, yeast is an unusual food that should be sparingly used, because of its high phosphorous/calcium ratio, high potassium to sodium ratio, and high estrogen content. The insulin-producing beta cells of the pancreas have estrogen receptors, but I don’t know of any new research investigating this aspect of yeast therapy.”

Concern’s about chromium and chromium supplementation have been raised in this thread:
Dietary supplements with chromium may be carcinogenic

Bone Density: First Do No Harm [emphasis is Dr. Peat’s]
“28. Med Hypotheses 1995 Sep;45(3):241-6. Anabolic effects of insulin on bone suggest a role for chromium picolinate in preservation of bone density. McCarty MF. “Physiological levels of insulin reduce the ability of PTH to activate protein kinase C in osteoblasts, suggesting that insulin may be a physiological antagonist of bone resorption. In addition, insulin is known to promote collagen production by osteoblasts.” [I think chromium is too toxic to use as a supplement.]”

Does RP's suggestion to steep and then drink the liquid mitigate any of these concerns? ie, Ph/Ca ratio, K/Na Ratio, Estrogen?

Also, it isn't clear if he means "no exogenous chromium" or if he means "do not take a pill with chromium". The former would rule out brewer's yeast and the latter would not. Seeing as many foods contain chromium, I am thinking the latter, ie, it does not rule out brewer's yeast.

 

[Amazoniac]

Received this as a subscriber:

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[Amazoniac]

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...nt_results/links/55b609bd08ae9289a08a948e.pdf

With all the vitamins B, the activation depends on the rate of Mg++, which permits the transphosphorylation reactions. During experimental diabetes, there is a decrease in the intestinal absorption of vitamin B1 and of its rate in the liver. The correction of this thiamin deficiency may be partly obtained by Mg++.

 

[Travis]

Interesting. Albert Szent-Györgi has speculated that ATP complexes with magnesium, like this:

 

[Amazoniac]

Interesting. Albert Szent-Györgi has speculated that ATP complexes with magnesium, like this:

Thanks for those links!

 

[Mito]

In this video Masterjohn talks about testing for Thiamine status (about the 10 minute mark).

He says the best thiamine status marker is erythrocyte transketolase activity. But apparently there are no labs with that test. Plasma thamine is only an indication of recent thiamine ingestion and not a good marker of status.

Later in the video he also discusses other things that can antagonize thiamine status.

 

[Travis]

In this old study you can see how added thiamine increased the CO₂ formation from pyruvate. They used a Warburg apparatus to trap the CO₂ and used carboxylase enzymes from rats. They added various competing substances to obtain curves 3-9. Curve 2 is with thiamine only and curve 1 is the baseline.

Curve 1: No additions
Curve 2: 7.80(10⁻³) μM of Thiamine Pyrophosphate
Curve 3: 7.80(10⁻³) μM of Thiamine Pyrophosphate + 3.88(10⁻¹) μM of ODP
ect...

STUDIES ON THIAMINE ANALOGUES
III. EFFECTS ON ENZYME SYSTEMS

Pretty neat. It seems that thiamine can increase metabolic rate drastically up to the point where you'll likely reach a 'bottleneck". Not all steps in metabolism can keep up with the quickest step; there is bound to be a rate-limiting step somewhere.

 

[managing]

Are there any known conditions that inhibit the phosphorylation of thiamine hcl? IOW, is there a good reason to supplement with thiamine pyrophosphate (or monophosphate)?

 

[Kray]

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2013/04/25/ray-peat-phd-on-brewers-yeast/

 

[johnwester130]

Feeling a lot better with thiamine supplementation.

Haven't taken it for months.

Thiamine is an absolute ray peat essential.

 

[lollipop]

Feeling a lot better with thiamine supplementation.

Haven't taken it for months.

Thiamine is an absolute ray peat essential.

How much are you taking @johnwester130?

 

[johnwester130]

How much are you taking @johnwester130?

100mg

 

[lollipop]

100mg

Thank you.

 

[johnwester130]

In this old study you can see how added thiamine increased the CO₂ formation from pyruvate. They used a Warburg apparatus to trap the CO₂ and used carboxylase enzymes from rats. They added various competing substances to obtain curves 3-9. Curve 2 is with thiamine only and curve 1 is the baseline.
View attachment 5315
Curve 1: No additions
Curve 2: 7.80(10⁻³) μM of Thiamine Pyrophosphate
Curve 3: 7.80(10⁻³) μM of Thiamine Pyrophosphate + 3.88(10⁻¹) μM of ODP
ect...

STUDIES ON THIAMINE ANALOGUES
III. EFFECTS ON ENZYME SYSTEMS

Pretty neat. It seems that thiamine can increase metabolic rate drastically up to the point where you'll likely reach a 'bottleneck". Not all steps in metabolism can keep up with the quickest step; there is bound to be a rate-limiting step somewhere.

wow

what other substances were they comparing vitamin b1 to ?

 

[Peatogenic]

deleted