Thiamine and Co-Factors

[mad539]

Does anyone know what kind of vitamins or minerals need to be supplemented (or need to be looking out for) when starting a high dose thiamin regiment?

Today i started thiamin supplementation with thamine hcl (1.200 mg per day throughout the day) and sulbutiamine (200 mg) for trying to fix a host of issues i have since many years now. After only half a day in, i have a continuous headache and now have issues swallowing (food keeps stuck in the esophagus). This might be a paradoxical reaction/refeed syndrome as described by Derrick Londsdale (see here). I had issues swallowing in the past when tinkering with folate, which was either a b12 or potassium issue if i remember it correctly.

So i'm very interested in what kind of deficency i could run into when going the high dose thiamin route or if anybody had issues when taking high dose thamin.

 

[ddjd]

in my experience a big one is b6. b1 does and will deplete b6.

best form of b6 is p5p. Thorne have a good product

 

[mrchibbs]

I think the interactions are so complex that it's better to cover your bases with lots of the b-vitamin rich foods. I personally find it (b vitamin supplementation) very confusing, and although I've done it in the past, I try to err on the side of caution now.

Thiamine should build up in your tissues within a week or two, it may be wise to drink a lot of milk, eat several good quality egg yolks, shellfish, brewer's yeast, liver, maple syrup etc. and take a good b complex, at least for the duration of your experiment. Going a little overboard to make sure you're absolutely replete in all the vitamins is crucial in my experience.

@ddjd do you have a reference that go into this relationship between b1 and b6? I try to accumulate information on the b vitamins.

 

[Bart1]

I'm interested in this as well. I am dosing currently about 300mg per day and I continuously have music playing in my head. I always had a sensitivity for it. But now it's much worse. Idk for sure if it's the b1, because I'm also doing some other things, but could this be excess acetylcholine ?

 

[Cloudhands]

Ive found that b1 in high doses makes me hypoglycemic because i burn thru sugar too quickly. Try 75mg with a meal imo.

 

[mrchibbs]

Ive found that b1 in high doses makes me hypoglycemic because i burn thru sugar too quickly. Try 75mg with a meal imo.

I've had similar experiences, but better success using 80mg benfotiamine (fat-soluble version of thiamine) with a meal.

 

[redsun]

I'm interested in this as well. I am dosing currently about 300mg per day and I continuously have music playing in my head. I always had a sensitivity for it. But now it's much worse. Idk for sure if it's the b1, because I'm also doing some other things, but could this be excess acetylcholine ?

Yeh it could be acetylcholine effect of B1 but usually it will just make you feel down and depressed and have negative ruminations. It could make the mind quite busy as well, hence the music playing in your head. That's the issue of acetylcholine promoting substances like B1. For those prone to feeling down, depression, sadness, despair etc. they should be careful and be mindful and keep in mind if they get these feelings when taking B1, its the B1, not them. P5P seems to strongly antagonize this depressing effect faster then just letting the B1 excrete out of the body in a few days/week.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yeh it could be acetylcholine effect of B1 but usually it will just make you feel down and depressed and have negative ruminations. It could make the mind quite busy as well, hence the music playing in your head. That's the issue of acetylcholine promoting substances like B1. For those prone to feeling down, depression, sadness, despair etc. they should be careful and be mindful and keep in mind if they get these feelings when taking B1, its the B1, not them. P5P seems to strongly antagonize this depressing effect faster then just letting the B1 excrete out of the body in a few days/week.

Really good information as usual @redsun

I wish you a happy new year in advance.

 

[Creative Nature]

I would suggest caution with high doses or chronic use of any oral vitamin supplement. As Ray Peat often points out, even supplements that are helpful in principle and free of excipients can contain impurities. If you need to supplement, it's important to start slowly and find the minimum effective dose.

i used high dose thiamine HCl off and on for quite a few months, and together with several other oral supplements, it eventually contributed to bad GI problems that i'm still trying to fix. (At the time, I thought I had no viable alternatives for coping with my health problems.) I definitely benefit from thiamine, but these days, I only use it topically, I try to keep the doses in the range of around 25-100 mg/day (including what I get from Georgi's Energin B complex), and I try to make sure I get enough magnesium and B6.

I'm not denying the value of thiamine or discouraging people from experimenting. It's great that you are trying to make sure you get enough of the cofactors. I just want to help readers avoid some of the stress I've experienced.

 

[mrchibbs]

I would suggest caution with high doses or chronic use of any oral vitamin supplement. As Ray Peat often points out, even supplements that are helpful in principle and free of excipients can contain impurities. If you need to supplement, it's important to start slowly and find the minimum effective dose.

i used high dose thiamine HCl off and on for quite a few months, and together with several other oral supplements, it eventually contributed to bad GI problems that i'm still trying to fix. (At the time, I thought I had no viable alternatives for coping with my health problems.) I definitely benefit from thiamine, but these days, I only use it topically, I try to keep the doses in the range of around 25-100 mg/day (including what I get from Georgi's Energin B complex), and I try to make sure I get enough magnesium and B6.

I'm not denying the value of thiamine or discouraging people from experimenting. It's great that you are trying to make sure you get enough of the cofactors. I just want to spare readers some of the stress I've experienced.

That's a good point, I too got lost in the rabbit hole of high doses of vitamin via the orthomolecular medecine ideas, I think there is some value there, but especially in terms of the b-vitamins, they are so interrelated that it can quickly exacerbate other issues. But at the same time, high dose thiamine and/or niacinamide have therapeutic benefits during certain situations which are not intrinsically linked to their roles as vitamins.

 

[Creative Nature]

That's a good point, I too got lost in the rabbit hole of high doses of vitamin via the orthomolecular medecine ideas, I think there is some value there, but especially in terms of the b-vitamins, they are so interrelated that it can quickly exacerbate other issues. But at the same time, high dose thiamine and/or niacinamide have therapeutic benefits during certain situations which are not intrinsically linked to their roles as vitamins.

I agree. I somehow missed your first post in this thread, which is spot on.

 

[mostlylurking]

Does anyone know what kind of vitamins or minerals need to be supplemented (or need to be looking out for) when starting a high dose thiamin regiment?

Today i started thiamin supplementation with thamine hcl (1.200 mg per day throughout the day) and sulbutiamine (200 mg) for trying to fix a host of issues i have since many years now. After only half a day in, i have a continuous headache and now have issues swallowing (food keeps stuck in the esophagus). This might be a paradoxical reaction/refeed syndrome as described by Derrick Londsdale (see here). I had issues swallowing in the past when tinkering with folate, which was either a b12 or potassium issue if i remember it correctly.

So i'm very interested in what kind of deficency i could run into when going the high dose thiamin route or if anybody had issues when taking high dose thamin.

I'm about halfway through the Londsdale book and have been increasing my thiamine HCL for about 2 months. I got damaged via several antibiotics last summer and my thiamine function was in the ditch. I am currently taking 1500mg thiamine HCL with 2000mg magnesium along with a couple of b-complex capsules (Pur brand).

I did try the TTFD thiamine once, but it gave me a horrendous headache. I may try again in the future. However, my brain symptoms have greatly improved on the thiamine HCL (and magnesium) so perhaps I won't feel the need to.

I read (somewhere) that if you take thiamine without also taking magnesium you will increase your serotonin. I looked into it after a really bad night after taking thiamine without magnesium. I was awake almost all night and hurt all over. I haven't had this problem since I increased my magnesium and take some with each dose of thiamine.

It is my understanding that the B vitamins work together and you should take a b-complex if you are taking high doses of one of them.

 

[Sergey]

Does anyone know what kind of vitamins or minerals need to be supplemented (or need to be looking out for) when starting a high dose thiamin regiment?

Today i started thiamin supplementation with thamine hcl (1.200 mg per day throughout the day) and sulbutiamine (200 mg) for trying to fix a host of issues i have since many years now. After only half a day in, i have a continuous headache and now have issues swallowing (food keeps stuck in the esophagus). This might be a paradoxical reaction/refeed syndrome as described by Derrick Londsdale (see here). I had issues swallowing in the past when tinkering with folate, which was either a b12 or potassium issue if i remember it correctly.

So i'm very interested in what kind of deficency i could run into when going the high dose thiamin route or if anybody had issues when taking high dose thamin.

Magnesium/potassium are quickly depleted by thiamine supplementation.

 

[Bart1]

Yeh it could be acetylcholine effect of B1 but usually it will just make you feel down and depressed and have negative ruminations. It could make the mind quite busy as well, hence the music playing in your head. That's the issue of acetylcholine promoting substances like B1. For those prone to feeling down, depression, sadness, despair etc. they should be careful and be mindful and keep in mind if they get these feelings when taking B1, its the B1, not them. P5P seems to strongly antagonize this depressing effect faster then just letting the B1 excrete out of the body in a few days/week.

Thanks for your explanation it resonates

 

[ddjd]

 

[mad539]

I think the interactions are so complex that it's better to cover your bases with lots of the b-vitamin rich foods. I personally find it (b vitamin supplementation) very confusing, and although I've done it in the past, I try to err on the side of caution now.

Thiamine should build up in your tissues within a week or two, it may be wise to drink a lot of milk, eat several good quality egg yolks, shellfish, brewer's yeast, liver, maple syrup etc. and take a good b complex, at least for the duration of your experiment. Going a little overboard to make sure you're absolutely replete in all the vitamins is crucial in my experience.

What dosage should a good b complex contain? Currently i take the b's separately because most of the time the b complex contains stuff i don't want (like choline, or very high folate like 1mg).

My current b regiment looks like this after every meal (3x):
400 mg thiamin hcl
12,5 mg riboflavin
15 mg niacin
500 mg pantothenic acid
400 µg folate
and once daily a sublingual b12.

I'm skipping the b6 because i had sky high pyridoxal levels after taking a month of pyridoxine (inactive form of b6). It took over a year for the level to go down, so when the level is back in the normal range, i will take p-5-p.

I would suggest caution with high doses or chronic use of any oral vitamin supplement. As Ray Peat often points out, even supplements that are helpful in principle and free of excipients can contain impurities. If you need to supplement, it's important to start slowly and find the minimum effective dose.

i used high dose thiamine HCl off and on for quite a few months, and together with several other oral supplements, it eventually contributed to bad GI problems that i'm still trying to fix. (At the time, I thought I had no viable alternatives for coping with my health problems.) I definitely benefit from thiamine, but these days, I only use it topically, I try to keep the doses in the range of around 25-100 mg/day (including what I get from Georgi's Energin B complex), and I try to make sure I get enough magnesium and B6.

I'm not denying the value of thiamine or discouraging people from experimenting. It's great that you are trying to make sure you get enough of the cofactors. I just want to help readers avoid some of the stress I've experienced.

My last "stack" contained many supplements and while they worked in the short term, in the long term i became very lethargic and depressed and couldn't find out why. Stopped all suppelements and after 2 days i was back to "normal". So now i'm very more cautious and stick to only the b's and some minerals like magnesium and zinc.

What i now for sure is that after taking a b-complex (thorne basic b-complex 2x per day) i can now tolerate carbs (couldn't tolerate them for many many years). Also my skin at my fingers doesn't crack anymore in the winter. I couldn't tolerate alcohol, and my voice was very rough and cracky for many days after a drink (one! glass of wine could do this). Now i tolerate alcohol much better.

I'm about halfway through the Londsdale book and have been increasing my thiamine HCL for about 2 months. I got damaged via several antibiotics last summer and my thiamine function was in the ditch. I am currently taking 1500mg thiamine HCL with 2000mg magnesium along with a couple of b-complex capsules (Pur brand).

I did try the TTFD thiamine once, but it gave me a horrendous headache. I may try again in the future. However, my brain symptoms have greatly improved on the thiamine HCL (and magnesium) so perhaps I won't feel the need to.

I read (somewhere) that if you take thiamine without also taking magnesium you will increase your serotonin. I looked into it after a really bad night after taking thiamine without magnesium. I was awake almost all night and hurt all over. I haven't had this problem since I increased my magnesium and take some with each dose of thiamine.

It is my understanding that the B vitamins work together and you should take a b-complex if you are taking high doses of one of them.

I'm very interested in the book. Are there any guidelines on what, when and how to take thiamin to resolve a deficency?

 

[mrchibbs]

What dosage should a good b complex contain? Currently i take the b's separately because most of the time the b complex contains stuff i don't want (like choline, or very high folate like 1mg).

I don't know to be honest, I've never really found a b-complex that was exactly to my liking. Hence why I emphasize foods and brewer's yeast to cover my bases.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Elliot (the guy in the video) from his experience with clients suggested a few things. Potassium and magnesium, B2, selenium, iodine, biotin were them main ones. One oh his clients tolerated TTFD better with methyl-folate and methylcombalamine. He is sometimes active on this facebook group - Facebook Groups

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I'm skipping the b6 because i had sky high pyridoxal levels after taking a month of pyridoxine (inactive form of b6). It took over a year for the level to go down, so when the level is back in the normal range, i will take p-5-p.

How much b6 was that?

 

[mad539]

How much b6 was that?

Not much, 20mg pyridoxine hydrochloride per day for around a month. My blood level was 291 nmol/L (range: 20 - 121) and is down to 145 nmol/L after 1 year. It was going down much faster after supplementing with all b vitamins beside b6.

My next blood draw is next week and i hope i'm in the normal range again.