The Ability To Metabolize Glucose Is Impaired In CFS/ME Patients

haidut

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The enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) is perhaps the single most important factor in proper glucose metabolism and it is often severely downregulated (both in function and levels) in a number of diseases, most notably cancer, diabetes and neurodegenerative conditions. Without proper functioning of PDH, pyruvate accumulates in the cell and is quickly turned into lactate by the enzyme LDH, which uses the excess pyruvate as an oxidant to convert NADH back to NAD. Without proper glucose metabolism and activity of PDH there is systemic downregulation of oxidative metabolism and one of its known signs is a debilitating fatigue and high lactate, which also happens to be the defining characteristic of the CFS/ME condition. Peat has been writing for more than a decade that CFS/ME is nothing by the manifestation of hypothyroidism. This latest study seems to confirm (again) his views and match with the study I posted a few months ago also implicating CFS/ME as a metabolic condition driven by stress.
Confirmed - CFS Is Hypometabolism Triggered By Environmental Stress

What is even more interesting is that Peat has mentioned a few times that another common sign of CFS/ME in males is a highly catabolic phenotype characterized by rapid loss of muscle mass, especially in males. The new study seems to confirm this aspect as well.

JCI Insight - Metabolic profiling indicates impaired pyruvate dehydrogenase function in myalgic encephalopathy/chronic fatigue syndrome
"...Myalgic encephalopathy/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating disease of unknown etiology, with hallmark symptoms including postexertional malaise and poor recovery. Metabolic dysfunction is a plausible contributing factor. We hypothesized that changes in serum amino acids may disclose specific defects in energy metabolism in ME/CFS. Analysis in 200 ME/CFS patients and 102 healthy individuals showed a specific reduction of amino acids that fuel oxidative metabolism via the TCA cycle, mainly in female ME/CFS patients. Serum 3-methylhistidine, a marker of endogenous protein catabolism, was significantly increased in male patients. The amino acid pattern suggested functional impairment of pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), supported by increased mRNA expression of the inhibitory PDH kinases 1, 2, and 4; sirtuin 4; and PPARδ in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from both sexes. Myoblasts grown in presence of serum from patients with severe ME/CFS showed metabolic adaptations, including increased mitochondrial respiration and excessive lactate secretion. The amino acid changes could not be explained by symptom severity, disease duration, age, BMI, or physical activity level among patients. These findings are in agreement with the clinical disease presentation of ME/CFS, with inadequate ATP generation by oxidative phosphorylation and excessive lactate generation upon exertion."


Assuming CFS/ME is driven mainly by downregulation of PDH then the natural question is how to reverse this downregulation. Answering this question has the potential for treating not only CFS/ME but a host of other nasty conditions. Activators of PDH and/or inhibitors of the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDK) are among the most promising targets for treating pretty much any chronic disease. PDK inhibits the activity of PDH, hence the interest in inhibiting PDK. The chemical DCA, which made the news a few years ago as possible treatment for cancer, does both - i.e. activates PDH and inhibits PDK. Peat wrote in one of his articles about DCA and its mechanism of action. Unfortunately, DCA is very toxic and eventually becomes carcinogenic itself. A much safer approach would be to use the cofactors of PDH as a supplement in order to boost its function. The two most important cofactors of PDH are vitamin B1 (thiamine) and magnesium. It just so happens that thiamine BOTH upregulates PDH activity and inhibits PDK, similarly to DCA but without any of the toxicity. What is even more appealing about thiamine therapy is that thiamine is also an inhibitor of carbonic anhydrase (CA), so not only will it it restore glucose metabolism but it should raise CO2 levels as well, and higher CO2 levels have perhaps the most systemically beneficial effect of any metabolic therapy. And if this wan't enough, inhibiting CA has been shown to be a potential therapy against the aging process itself.
Thiamine acts similarly to DCA and may be helpful in cancer
Thiamine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor As Effective As Acetazolamide
Carbonic Anhydrase Is A Key Driver Of Aging; Inhibiting It Is Beneficial
 

Tarmander

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Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,489
I am really interested in this subject. Phoenix Rising was one of the first hardcore health forums I attended and learned from. In hindsight, I am glad I did not go down Freddd's protocol path, but I did learn a lot.

I have always had CFS like symptoms. Growing up I was always tired. The main experience I had after a certain age (after burning through a lot of youthful energy) was the inability to gain muscle and keep it. Basically...doing nothing at all is more protective of muscle then any exercise, or even movement for me. Very backwards. But this is a very common thing. Many people with CFS have very little tolerance for any kind of exercise. It sends them into a catabolic insomnia episode where all they can do is lay around.

My understanding through experimentation has brought me to the belief that it must be tackled through the digestion to have any efficacy at all. Trying to treat the liver alone seems to always give promising results that fall away quickly. Treating hormones does not seem to work very well, although I have not tried some of your very new stuff Haidut. Using vitamins to rev your metabolism can seem to help for a week or two, but then a crash.

I tried high doses of vitamin B1 for a long period of time, maybe a year, or nine months I think? Does not do enough. Does not treat CFS, or help you gain muscle. There is something in digestion that no matter what you do, it pulls your oxidative metabolism back down. I really wish B1 worked better then it did, and I love the research on it, but I think we need to put it out to pasture as a plausible treatment for anything but Parkinsons. It seems to do well there, but I have not seen a lot else. Would love to read more testimonials on it though if someone has some.

I have had success recently taking vitamin D and charcoal every day. Over the last three months or so, I have lost weight around my middle and lower back, and it has slowly migrated into muscle in my upper body. I had to move twice (!!) in a two week period, and instead of being completely dead, my muscles grew...I was literally flabbergasted. I think digestion is the route on CFS, and the wasting muscle issues that come with it.
 

Regina

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Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
3,214
Location
Chicago
The enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) is perhaps the single most important factor in proper glucose metabolism and it is often severely downregulated (both in function and levels) in a number of diseases, most notably cancer, diabetes and neurodegenerative conditions. Without proper functioning of PDH, pyruvate accumulates in the cell and is quickly turned into lactate by the enzyme LDH, which uses the excess pyruvate as an oxidant to convert NADH back to NAD. Without proper glucose metabolism and activity of PDH there is systemic downregulation of oxidative metabolism and one of its known signs is a debilitating fatigue and high lactate, which also happens to be the defining characteristic of the CFS/ME condition. Peat has been writing for more than a decade that CFS/ME is nothing by the manifestation of hypothyroidism. This latest study seems to confirm (again) his views and match with the study I posted a few months ago also implicating CFS/ME as a metabolic condition driven by stress.
Confirmed - CFS Is Hypometabolism Triggered By Environmental Stress

What is even more interesting is that Peat has mentioned a few times that another common sign of CFS/ME in males is a highly catabolic phenotype characterized by rapid loss of muscle mass, especially in males. The new study seems to confirm this aspect as well.

JCI Insight - Metabolic profiling indicates impaired pyruvate dehydrogenase function in myalgic encephalopathy/chronic fatigue syndrome
"...Myalgic encephalopathy/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating disease of unknown etiology, with hallmark symptoms including postexertional malaise and poor recovery. Metabolic dysfunction is a plausible contributing factor. We hypothesized that changes in serum amino acids may disclose specific defects in energy metabolism in ME/CFS. Analysis in 200 ME/CFS patients and 102 healthy individuals showed a specific reduction of amino acids that fuel oxidative metabolism via the TCA cycle, mainly in female ME/CFS patients. Serum 3-methylhistidine, a marker of endogenous protein catabolism, was significantly increased in male patients. The amino acid pattern suggested functional impairment of pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), supported by increased mRNA expression of the inhibitory PDH kinases 1, 2, and 4; sirtuin 4; and PPARδ in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from both sexes. Myoblasts grown in presence of serum from patients with severe ME/CFS showed metabolic adaptations, including increased mitochondrial respiration and excessive lactate secretion. The amino acid changes could not be explained by symptom severity, disease duration, age, BMI, or physical activity level among patients. These findings are in agreement with the clinical disease presentation of ME/CFS, with inadequate ATP generation by oxidative phosphorylation and excessive lactate generation upon exertion."


Assuming CFS/ME is driven mainly by downregulation of PDH then the natural question is how to reverse this downregulation. Answering this question has the potential for treating not only CFS/ME but a host of other nasty conditions. Activators of PDH and/or inhibitors of the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDK) are among the most promising targets for treating pretty much any chronic disease. PDK inhibits the activity of PDH, hence the interest in inhibiting PDK. The chemical DCA, which made the news a few years ago as possible treatment for cancer, does both - i.e. activates PDH and inhibits PDK. Peat wrote in one of his articles about DCA and its mechanism of action. Unfortunately, DCA is very toxic and eventually becomes carcinogenic itself. A much safer approach would be to use the cofactors of PDH as a supplement in order to boost its function. The two most important cofactors of PDH are vitamin B1 (thiamine) and magnesium. It just so happens that thiamine BOTH upregulates PDH activity and inhibits PDK, similarly to DCA but without any of the toxicity. What is even more appealing about thiamine therapy is that thiamine is also an inhibitor of carbonic anhydrase (CA), so not only will it it restore glucose metabolism but it should raise CO2 levels as well, and higher CO2 levels have perhaps the most systemically beneficial effect of any metabolic therapy. And if this wan't enough, inhibiting CA has been shown to be a potential therapy against the aging process itself.
Thiamine acts similarly to DCA and may be helpful in cancer
Thiamine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor As Effective As Acetazolamide
Carbonic Anhydrase Is A Key Driver Of Aging; Inhibiting It Is Beneficial
:happy::dancingsmileyman:happy:
 

burtlancast

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Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
2,806
I am really interested in this subject. Phoenix Rising was one of the first hardcore health forums I attended and learned from. In hindsight, I am glad I did not go down Freddd's protocol path, but I did learn a lot.

I have always had CFS like symptoms. Growing up I was always tired. The main experience I had after a certain age (after burning through a lot of youthful energy) was the inability to gain muscle and keep it. Basically...doing nothing at all is more protective of muscle then any exercise, or even movement for me. Very backwards. But this is a very common thing. Many people with CFS have very little tolerance for any kind of exercise. It sends them into a catabolic insomnia episode where all they can do is lay around.

My understanding through experimentation has brought me to the belief that it must be tackled through the digestion to have any efficacy at all. Trying to treat the liver alone seems to always give promising results that fall away quickly. Treating hormones does not seem to work very well, although I have not tried some of your very new stuff Haidut. Using vitamins to rev your metabolism can seem to help for a week or two, but then a crash.

I tried high doses of vitamin B1 for a long period of time, maybe a year, or nine months I think? Does not do enough. Does not treat CFS, or help you gain muscle. There is something in digestion that no matter what you do, it pulls your oxidative metabolism back down. I really wish B1 worked better then it did, and I love the research on it, but I think we need to put it out to pasture as a plausible treatment for anything but Parkinsons. It seems to do well there, but I have not seen a lot else. Would love to read more testimonials on it though if someone has some.

I have had success recently taking vitamin D and charcoal every day. Over the last three months or so, I have lost weight around my middle and lower back, and it has slowly migrated into muscle in my upper body. I had to move twice (!!) in a two week period, and instead of being completely dead, my muscles grew...I was literally flabbergasted. I think digestion is the route on CFS, and the wasting muscle issues that come with it.


A Bob Beck Protocol Testimonial

A Bob Beck Protocol Testimonial
 
Last edited:

kiran

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Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
1,054
I have had success recently taking vitamin D and charcoal every day. Over the last three months or so, I have lost weight around my middle and lower back, and it has slowly migrated into muscle in my upper body. I had to move twice (!!) in a two week period, and instead of being completely dead, my muscles grew...I was literally flabbergasted. I think digestion is the route on CFS, and the wasting muscle issues that come with it.

Oh wow. Charcoal, must be soaking up all the nastiness in the gut. Details please, do you know if its SIBO?
When do you take it? How much?
How do you react to antibiotics?
 

Tarmander

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Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,489
Oh wow. Charcoal, must be soaking up all the nastiness in the gut. Details please, do you know if its SIBO?
When do you take it? How much?
How do you react to antibiotics?

I react terribly to raw carrot, decently to antibiotics although I have not done a ton of antibiotics. I take a scoop (2.4g or so) of the healthnatura charcoal about an hour after breakfast. I used to worry about what I took it with, but I have noticed it does not absorb nearly the amount of good stuff that people imagine. I have taken it with my coffee and I still feel the caffeine, so I do not worry much about that aspect of it. It makes my teeth whiter, which is nice. If I take two scoops, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, my teeth hurt.

If I stop taking the charcoal, I start to feel worse. It seems like there is something permanent in my gut that at least for now I cannot "flush" out or whatever. So no idea if it is sibo or what. Also, I do not want to imply that it is all the charcoal...there was a progression of events that all started with a Lisuride experiment that cleared my thinking. After that I really started focusing on digestion.
 

kiran

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Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
1,054
I react terribly to raw carrot, decently to antibiotics although I have not done a ton of antibiotics. I take a scoop (2.4g or so) of the healthnatura charcoal about an hour after breakfast. I used to worry about what I took it with, but I have noticed it does not absorb nearly the amount of good stuff that people imagine. I have taken it with my coffee and I still feel the caffeine, so I do not worry much about that aspect of it. It makes my teeth whiter, which is nice. If I take two scoops, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, my teeth hurt.

If I stop taking the charcoal, I start to feel worse. It seems like there is something permanent in my gut that at least for now I cannot "flush" out or whatever. So no idea if it is sibo or what. Also, I do not want to imply that it is all the charcoal...there was a progression of events that all started with a Lisuride experiment that cleared my thinking. After that I really started focusing on digestion.

Thats good to know. My thinking is clear, but my gums/teeth (and my gut) still bother me. I've been trying some minocycline, it works but tires me out.
I worry that charcoal might just suppress the symptoms.
 

Tarmander

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Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,489
Thats good to know. My thinking is clear, but my gums/teeth (and my gut) still bother me. I've been trying some minocycline, it works but tires me out.
I worry that charcoal might just suppress the symptoms.

I think charcoal is pretty safe. When I started taking it I experimented with large doses, like 10g, that kind of thing. Longer term it may cause issues, but I think you have a green light to experiment if you want.
 

Sheila

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Nov 6, 2014
Messages
374
Greetings Tarmander,
Thank you for posting your observations and experiences with thiamine and charcoal, I appreciated them.

In my own experimentation, self and patients, I have not found high dose thiamine that useful and certainly not helpful if eating is insufficient (as for many people, no matter how it is emphasised, it is) and have questioned some of the studies because no details were given on diet and that has to be a rate limiting step for this vitamin's use (ditto most metabolic stimulants). Many of the studies on thiamine or allithiamine's benefits were IV which is also rather a different game to 'normal' supplementation and may indeed 'get around' the nil effect or problems I have seen and you have experienced.

However, in a few people with 'documented Hashimoto's' hypothyroidism, who are consistent, regular eaters, I have noticed that 300-600mg thiamine, WITH grated carrot works well - for them - in terms of supporting energy production, echoing, I think, what you have noticed with granular charcoal. Without the 'gut sweep' for want of a better term, the thiamine is either unused or inefficiently used or causing problems. I never underestimate the ability of any supplement or food for that matter to cross out of the 'therapeutic sweet spot' for that individual and into the realm of more harm than good (akin to most drugs as they also then tend to treat symptoms, with side effects (aka warnings!) later. Everything we put into the body has to be dealt with in some manner. So, I wonder if you used thiamine and charcoal at any point and what you observed.

I am curious as to what you suspect the Vitamin D is doing to your system. Is it allowing you to use calcium better? Or? I am always mindful of Amazoniac's opening line in one of his posts addressing: "Members that are crafting a beautiful coral reef in the intestines with the aid of eggshells" because I have also found - or should I say suspect - that eggshell calcium, like possibly most any calcium, can really irritate a gut (especially with low HCl - see Amazoniac's [Principles Of Human Physiology (1920) posts on milk] and have the opposite effect to that which is intended. Inappropriate deposition of calcium is a 'feature' of many chronic disease states. This brings me on (in my mind anyway) to the effect of charcoal. For SOME low doses to high doses irritate immensely, possibly through irritation or persorption to the point of intolerability, or even because it is more drying than can be tolerated internally. I trialled HN's granular charcoal but one crunch and I could not get past the feeling of chomping on glass particles - what, I wondered, were those seemingly sharp? edges going to do on mucous membranes? Given your results, I will stop being a sissy and try again but my concern with granular substances, still remains, they hardly feel 'digestible'.

Yet, before USP (fine) charcoal started to have (maybe) persorption inflammatory effects, I also saw improvement in the markers you mention. And my conclusion was also: gut, gut, gut. Recently I have returned to trialling gentle digestive enzymes to hopefully improve the, well, digestion and reduce the need for the charcoal or g/carrot clean up crew, if that is indeed what they are doing. Thiamine might then work as postulated, or shown, largely via IV or IM (which obviously circumvents some of these issues).

In Dr Peat's latest newsletter (Nov 2016) Arthritis, Autoimmunity & Aging he says "The Embryologist Elie Metchnikoff looked at immunity as an aspect of the organism's maintenance of its own integrity.....a similar holistic view appeared in Matzinger's danger theory and Cunliffe's morphostatis" or "damage theory" of immunity, in which destruction of pathogens isn't "the purpose" of the "immune system" but a side effect of maintaining organismic integrity."

I am beginning to think that nothing (outside of acute trauma) is more important for whole organism integrity than gut integrity. Many supplements' excipients are able to cause, I think, sterile inflammation. Get a supplement dose wrong for oneself, for long enough, and ditto. But if I read you correctly Tarmander, Vit D and charcoal have offered you some kind of buffer??

Dr Peat's newsletter got me thinking about those with "AI diseases" that I have observed and also now those with CFS, where even limited exercise seems to put the whole body into a state of shock. I have noticed the latter are often very driven individuals - never slackers - and that for the majority of the men I have seen, excessive sweating out of proportion to the exercise undertaken seems common. Is this your experience Tarmander? And ALL of these are also the thin build that Haidut (and Dr Peat) refers to as highly catabolic phenotypes. Perhaps removal of the inflammatory trigger in the gut (whatever it is) - by charcoal, g/carrot - might let energy production improve to the point where thiamine becomes more useful. I really don't know and am thinking out loud. Feel free to point out the non-sequitors and thank you, as always, for reading to this point!

Sincerely,
Sheila
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,489
Greetings Tarmander,
Thank you for posting your observations and experiences with thiamine and charcoal, I appreciated them.

In my own experimentation, self and patients, I have not found high dose thiamine that useful and certainly not helpful if eating is insufficient (as for many people, no matter how it is emphasised, it is) and have questioned some of the studies because no details were given on diet and that has to be a rate limiting step for this vitamin's use (ditto most metabolic stimulants). Many of the studies on thiamine or allithiamine's benefits were IV which is also rather a different game to 'normal' supplementation and may indeed 'get around' the nil effect or problems I have seen and you have experienced.

However, in a few people with 'documented Hashimoto's' hypothyroidism, who are consistent, regular eaters, I have noticed that 300-600mg thiamine, WITH grated carrot works well - for them - in terms of supporting energy production, echoing, I think, what you have noticed with granular charcoal. Without the 'gut sweep' for want of a better term, the thiamine is either unused or inefficiently used or causing problems. I never underestimate the ability of any supplement or food for that matter to cross out of the 'therapeutic sweet spot' for that individual and into the realm of more harm than good (akin to most drugs as they also then tend to treat symptoms, with side effects (aka warnings!) later. Everything we put into the body has to be dealt with in some manner. So, I wonder if you used thiamine and charcoal at any point and what you observed.

I am curious as to what you suspect the Vitamin D is doing to your system. Is it allowing you to use calcium better? Or? I am always mindful of Amazoniac's opening line in one of his posts addressing: "Members that are crafting a beautiful coral reef in the intestines with the aid of eggshells" because I have also found - or should I say suspect - that eggshell calcium, like possibly most any calcium, can really irritate a gut (especially with low HCl - see Amazoniac's [Principles Of Human Physiology (1920) posts on milk] and have the opposite effect to that which is intended. Inappropriate deposition of calcium is a 'feature' of many chronic disease states. This brings me on (in my mind anyway) to the effect of charcoal. For SOME low doses to high doses irritate immensely, possibly through irritation or persorption to the point of intolerability, or even because it is more drying than can be tolerated internally. I trialled HN's granular charcoal but one crunch and I could not get past the feeling of chomping on glass particles - what, I wondered, were those seemingly sharp? edges going to do on mucous membranes? Given your results, I will stop being a sissy and try again but my concern with granular substances, still remains, they hardly feel 'digestible'.

Yet, before USP (fine) charcoal started to have (maybe) persorption inflammatory effects, I also saw improvement in the markers you mention. And my conclusion was also: gut, gut, gut. Recently I have returned to trialling gentle digestive enzymes to hopefully improve the, well, digestion and reduce the need for the charcoal or g/carrot clean up crew, if that is indeed what they are doing. Thiamine might then work as postulated, or shown, largely via IV or IM (which obviously circumvents some of these issues).

In Dr Peat's latest newsletter (Nov 2016) Arthritis, Autoimmunity & Aging he says "The Embryologist Elie Metchnikoff looked at immunity as an aspect of the organism's maintenance of its own integrity.....a similar holistic view appeared in Matzinger's danger theory and Cunliffe's morphostatis" or "damage theory" of immunity, in which destruction of pathogens isn't "the purpose" of the "immune system" but a side effect of maintaining organismic integrity."

I am beginning to think that nothing (outside of acute trauma) is more important for whole organism integrity than gut integrity. Many supplements' excipients are able to cause, I think, sterile inflammation. Get a supplement dose wrong for oneself, for long enough, and ditto. But if I read you correctly Tarmander, Vit D and charcoal have offered you some kind of buffer??

Dr Peat's newsletter got me thinking about those with "AI diseases" that I have observed and also now those with CFS, where even limited exercise seems to put the whole body into a state of shock. I have noticed the latter are often very driven individuals - never slackers - and that for the majority of the men I have seen, excessive sweating out of proportion to the exercise undertaken seems common. Is this your experience Tarmander? And ALL of these are also the thin build that Haidut (and Dr Peat) refers to as highly catabolic phenotypes. Perhaps removal of the inflammatory trigger in the gut (whatever it is) - by charcoal, g/carrot - might let energy production improve to the point where thiamine becomes more useful. I really don't know and am thinking out loud. Feel free to point out the non-sequitors and thank you, as always, for reading to this point!

Sincerely,
Sheila

Yeah those healthnatura charcoal chunks are a bit scary huh? Whenever I get one stuck in my mouth and crunch down on it...well what might that be doing to my intestines? I will say I had a few bloody stools after eating large amounts of gluten that I do not usually have. Overall it seems my intestines can handle the charcoal and there are benefits.

You pointed out a couple things that I have found true. One thing I have noticed after starting to take charcoal everyday is how supplements affect me differently now. In the past, they all seemed to offer some benefit...but had a backlash at some point in the future. Not only that, I could take large amounts of them to test what they did. After charcoal, supplements seem to be much stronger, and their effects, if beneficial, do not have a backlash, which is kind of awesome. However I do not take large amounts of B vitamins anymore, or eat liver. They seem to rev me up too much and my teeth feel weak. Ray always recommends small amounts of things...I remember scoffing when he said 10mg of riboflavin could be helpful. I get that now.

I am not exactly sure what the vitamin D is doing, but I feel better and calmer on it, so I take a bit here and there. I do not take egg shell calcium.

What I want to emphasize is the importance for me in my lisuride experiment. There is such a difference in what some here would call youthful metabolism, and stressful metabolism, and lisuride really showed me that. I would not have been able to identify Vitamin D or Charcoal as helpful agents without the view lisuride gave me. As you get older, you learn consequences. You learn that a drink Sunday night will make Monday and Tuesday pretty intolerable at work. Or lack of a good nights rest will make you more snappy with your spouse. These things become your reality and with CFS, all you have is consequences to your actions. Anything other then laying around causes a worsening of health. I have not had clinical CFS, or ever really identified as someone with CFS, but I have noticed a sharing with some of those symptoms.

People with CFS cross a point where the food they eat, no longer nourishes them. I have gone through this. The more you eat, the more endotoxin you get, which lowers your blood sugar, which means you have to eat more...People like this eat huge amounts, and have no energy. God what a terrible place to be. Somehow, Charcoal sucks up this factor which makes food you eat anti-nourishment. Food works again, it's delightful, and simple. I have been experimenting lately with Ray's marmalade. It is awesome stuff, clears your mind, lightens your mood, tastes great.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
I am beginning to think that nothing (outside of acute trauma) is more important for whole organism integrity than gut integrity.
Wonderful post @Sheila. Also what you wrote here has along with what I heard in @Tarmander's post been my own similar conclusion after years of studying health. Gut health seems one of (if not the) the single most foundational piece for well being, wellness.
 

Tarmander

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Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,489
Wonderful post @Sheila. Also what you wrote here has along with what I heard in @Tarmander's post been my own similar conclusion after years of studying health. Gut health seems one of (if not the) the single most foundational piece for well being, wellness.
Yeah...it is kind of like...if your gut is bad, nothing is going to work empirically. If your gut can function again, at least then you have some options and you can look into supplementation from a scientific standpoint. This works, this doesn't work, etc. The funny thing is, I have always read this, for years. But it never quite set in for me until I really felt the difference.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
Yeah...it is kind of like...if your gut is bad, nothing is going to work empirically. If your gut can function again, at least then you have some options and you can look into supplementation from a scientific standpoint. This works, this doesn't work, etc. The funny thing is, I have always read this, for years. But it never quite set in for me until I really felt the difference.
I really noticed it from following Peat. Because I stopped supplementing when I started (or shortly after) and began relying on food and letting my body (liver, gut etc) do its job. Before I was on an insane amount of supplements and basically propped up my "health" with them. Coming off I crashed a bit but am now recovering with true energetic health and simply food and better metabolism. Crazy learning and I feel will result in true longevity and wellness.
 

amethyst

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Oct 27, 2016
Messages
533
In addition to doing supplemental things, why not try and eliminate the sources of stress as well which is a primary cause of CFS? Use a two pronged approach. Treat with nutritional supplements and do things that aleviate one's stress, such as moving to a new location, changing one's job, one's circumstances, and change diet, protocol at the same time.
 

amethyst

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Oct 27, 2016
Messages
533
I really noticed it from following Peat. Because I stopped supplementing when I started (or shortly after) and began relying on food and letting my body (liver, gut etc) do its job. Before I was on an insane amount of supplements and basically propped up my "health" with them. Coming off I crashed a bit but am now recovering with true energetic health and simply food and better metabolism. Crazy learning and I feel will result in true longevity and wellness.
That's a good approach. Too many supplements can be overwhelming to your system and do more damage at times.
 

Tarmander

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Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,489
In addition to doing supplemental things, why not try and eliminate the sources of stress as well which is a primary cause of CFS? Use a two pronged approach. Treat with nutritional supplements and do things that aleviate one's stress, such as moving to a new location, changing one's job, one's circumstances, and change diet, protocol at the same time.

I think for people with CFS, everything becomes stressful at a certain point. Stress means not having the energy to meet life's demands.
 

CrystalClear

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Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
104
I don't have CFS. I have hypothyroidism so I have a lot of debilitating fatigue. I was taking vit D to lift my low level and took the 600 mg dose of thiamine. This made a vast improvement in energy level. Also my puffy breathing wasn't as bad. Today I am very short of breath. I have run out of vit D and thiamine supplements lately and need to get some more. I haven't been taping my mouth overnight either, so snoring and sleep apnea are back. This morning I couldn't even bend over to pick up my cat because I was out of breath just walking outside and had to get hubby to pick her up. The Buteyko Method for breathing has a scale for Co2 levels in your lungs where 60 seconds of holding your breath is very good and 20 seconds and lower indicates disease. I can only hold my breath for 12 seconds this morning. :( My husband noticed how breathy I was, so said it was ok for me to order some Diamox in the hope it will also help. In Australia it is prescription only and not prescribed for sleep apnea so I have to get it another way.
 

Sheila

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Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
374
Greetings Tarmander,

Thank you for your most interesting replies, they have orientated a lot of jigsaw pieces for me. "Ideally nothing makes sense until it makes perfect sense" (paraphrased from Dr You Know Who), and for me, thanks to our discussion, this now does. I have seen exactly the same effects with charcoal and supplementation that you describe especially wrt b vitamins needing to be decreased*; for others, grated carrot also allows this 'reduction of load' (but now I am seeing that if someone still needs 300-600mg B1, it is not perhaps sufficient sweeping etc), and so endotoxin appears a key part in this mess. I have come to see teeth sensitivity/gum bleeding as indicative of a gut sensitivity/bleeding-tissue integrity issue and in many AI patients, nose bleeds can also be more common, makes sense, all connected, just showing that things aren't right down there. And like your good self, and Lisa, I knew all this theoretically but now perhaps I really KNOW it. We'll see.

It might make sense then that the excessive sweating that I see with this 'picture' is merely a shock inflammatory response to gut integrity being challenged further by even mild exercise as 'endotoxin et al' passes into the blood stream and alarm bells ring. In some way that response makes sense to the body but it is indicative perhaps of severe compromise and from that, to recover, the organism needs to be really stationary for a while. Perhaps in milder compromise, the water collects around the middle instead, as can be seen transiently with mal-digested starch for example, so cortisol and endotoxin involved here and no wonder, 'starvers' coming to Dr Peat's understandings put on a lot of truncal weight from more food - and endotoxin - than they have ever been used to. I am sure this has been stated before by many, but I had never associated more food with more endotoxin until Tarmander's post. Duh.

One other observation if I may. I suspect pH is involved in the above too - without the conditions to generate the correct pH, enzyme production and thereby digestion, will be impacted and/or impaired. This may be, for example, why the use of small amounts of apple cider vinegar before meals, or bitters, reduces truncal weight in some over time - whilst giving others nasty histamine reactions immediately or after a while instead. Things are never simplex! pH generation - like anything - takes energy and is tightly controlled (thus more energy needed, presuming one has that energy....). In my garden, my soil is mineral rich, but alkaline and my bore water is alkaline too. A few plants will get iron deficiency anaemia and I am encouraged - by those with products to sell - to use iron chelate "to sort that out". But my soil has plenty of iron, I protest (my current husband is a geochemist, such knowledge is most helpful) so that does not make sense to me. But I am urged to do it anyway (thinking they have a clue),(gosh this sounds like supplementation via blood test/hair test industry, but I digress). Accidentally using ex-epsom salt rich foot bath water on such plants (especially citrus) cures the 'iron anaemia' pretty quickly and also increases the colouration (depth and intensity, even flecks of a different colour entirely) of my extensive rose collection. I thought it was the extra mag - but wait (!), my soil is also very rich in mag. And it also happens when ex-distillation water (usually around pH 4) is applied also - and the mineralisation in there is no where near as strong. So, in the soil, the pH change, alters the chemistry of uptake into the plant - making what is present already (in my soil's case), actually available. I am sure you can see where I am going with this. Maybe charcoal has some buffering effect also that allows the same in the likely more complex human system. Having a valence of zero, it can both lose or gain 4 electrons, becoming either CO2 or CH4 down stream And we have heard about CO2 before. Again I am thinking out loud, but supporting salival mastication, then stomach acid production seems key to kicking the whole process off, even though I've never caught my roses doing either.

And thanks to you also Lisa, for your encouragement, your generosity of spirit always shines through.

I am sure that is quite enough.

Best regards,

Sheila

* and Tarmander, I will throw this out here - I really don't know - but just in case granular charcoal does have some irritation potential after a while: It has been my experience in very sensitive guts, the addition of b vitamins is often an epic fail, even at very low doses and the first thing to show this externally is psoriasic type of skin break outs. Yet again, merely an observation attached to an, as yet, homeless jigsaw piece. May not even be part of this jigsaw.
 
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Nov 21, 2015
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@Tarmander what is Ray's marmalade?

I have been taking Healthnatura charcoal, about a scoop, in a tablespoon of plain yogurt as a vehicle, about every 2 or 3 days, and it seems to be ultra helpful in making me feel better somehow.

I'm using my bowel movements as a gauge and if they become messy, time for another charcoal. By which I mean I don't want to soil toilet paper. I think this is a good guide, and every 2 or 3 days seems enough. I also find it constipating if I don't take some extra magnesium or get lots and lots of fruit.

i kind of migrated to this from the carrot recently. It seems to make me feel better more than the carrot salad every day.

I do feel a lot like laying around after I do vigorous walking etc. and I have a thin frame and am carrying a good amount of fat (not really good) I kind of feel this CFS direction is where my body has always been although I can build muscle if I lift weights. I just get really more tired and want to lay around, compared to most other people.

And: thiamine in 1g or higher doses DEFINITELY raised my CO2 levels It was great, but it made me smell really bad so I stopped.
 
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