Some Skeptical Thoughts On Meditation

[lollipop]

"...some of my experiences make the exogenous substances child's play in comparison ..."
Yea, for me too. For me, that is why I continue.

I see that in you @Regina, a level of maturity in your responses and posts...

 

[lollipop]

In India they also have this like the christians! haha
The enlightened master I know just tell things so simply, that I could understand what his state was. Above, I was talking about the container, the bowl... His bowl is so big that he can stand a lot, and more, without getting angry or mad at it, or afraid and so on. I also know his wife, and she saw the difference betweenn before and after his "change"...
The funny thing is that when it happened to him, he said he just laughted and laughted and laughted... as you, about this freedom!

I had often read along the way that the "striving" was an obstacle in and of itself. I finally experienced the truth in that after almost 15-20 yrs. of striving. To be in a human life is such a profound blessing and opportunity for moment by moment creativity as creator forces.

 

[Xisca]

There is too much to the idea of 'not being attached to things that are not there' to address here. But for me, I never thought it had anything to do with goals, but more about keeping a free-flowing mind (unwrapped vision).

I had often read along the way that the "striving" was an obstacle in and of itself. I finally experienced the truth in that after almost 15-20 yrs. of striving. To be in a human life is such a profound blessing and opportunity for moment by moment creativity as creator forces.

Isn't this attachment and the striving the same thing?
And it has to go by itself...

My Word goal meant a lot more... When you walk and fall down in a path, your goal is to re-establish your balance and not hurt yourself. If you fail and fall and hurt you somehow, there is something to not being attached to: what you could have done better.

In trauma, something is still there inside you, something is not finished. This is for me part of what is in the sentence to be attached to something that is not there anymore. Many healing method liberate this, to give back freedom.

And to compare with the cat, this is feeling free even on leash! For example the leash can be a permanent damage in the body after a fall. If you cannot recover all, at least if you can recover your inner freedom....

 

[Regina]

Isn't this attachment and the striving the same thing?
And it has to go by itself...

My Word goal meant a lot more... When you walk and fall down in a path, your goal is to re-establish your balance and not hurt yourself. If you fail and fall and hurt you somehow, there is something to not being attached to: what you could have done better.
Attachments can get in the way of compassion. The person is injured. Just help them.

In trauma, something is still there inside you, something is not finished.
I do believe in alchemy.
This is for me part of what is in the sentence to be attached to something that is not there anymore. Many healing method liberate this, to give back freedom.
Goodbye to the hungry ghost. :)

And to compare with the cat, this is feeling free even on leash! Yes.
For example the leash can be a permanent damage in the body after a fall. If you cannot recover all, at least if you can recover your inner freedom...
YES!

 

[mirc12354]

It is the most accurate description of reality in existence. And no, I will not explain more

.....

And what is your opinion on Ra's PHS? Also as accurate?

 

[amethyst]

I had often read along the way that the "striving" was an obstacle in and of itself. I finally experienced the truth in that after almost 15-20 yrs. of striving. To be in a human life is such a profound blessing and opportunity for moment by moment creativity as creator forces.

I can relate with that. To me, meditation is thinking. Thinking deeply about things and then letting them go. If the thoughts comes back to you, especially several times, then it's signaling to you what you need to accept or discard within yourself and in your circumstances, and make the necessary changes....or not. But not to force things, because that never works out when you force "change". Or acquiesce to someone else's wanting you to change for their reasons but not your own. Change has to come from within, and not from without. Self acceptance comes from within, and not from without. Motivation comes from within, and not from without. Our whole society to geared towards doing things by what we are told, or by rote, or by outside influence, but hardly ever giving any thought as to the "why" or the motivation for something. We are taught not to think. Just act. Or react. I see the US election as a perfect example of that.

People now think they have "change". Obama ran on "change". People rebelled against that change. Now a good portion of the people think the change they will supposedly have, will be better. But I see it as reactionary. What they think they will be getting will not be what they really want. But they are looking outside themselves for change to happen. People are in for a rude awakening I'm afraid. They don't realize that change has to first come from within...and when enough enlightened people have been transformed from within, then, real change can happen, because it took place within oneself first. And you were willing to embrace that necessary change and do something about it for the better. They will always remain a small group. A small portion. I really don't think you can legislate morality. But it appears the majority thinks otherwise.

I'm a very big believer in the phrase "when the student is ready, the teacher appears".

 

[lollipop]

They don't realize that change has to first come from within...and when enough enlightened people have been transformed from within, then, real change can happen, because it took place within oneself first.

Yes! You have understood. Now living consistently from this clarity is what makes change happen. This type of clarity will never be happy in an environment less than. Holding to this bigger vision will bring your environment to meet this clarity, which in turn affects others and so on and so on. Slow but steady change.

 

[lollipop]

"when the student is ready, the teacher appears".

Precisely. AND often can be in the form of multiple people/ideas/etc. Does not necessarily imply "in one person" only.

 

[amethyst]

Yes! You have understood. Now living consistently from this clarity is what makes change happen. This type of clarity will never be happy in an environment less than. Holding to this bigger vision will bring your environment to meet this clarity, which in turn affects others and so on and so on. Slow but steady change.

I agree sista

 

[amethyst]

Precisely. AND often can be in the form of multiple people/ideas/etc. Does not necessarily imply "in one person" only.

Yes, I agree.

 

[lollipop]

I agree sista

Amazing the dopamine hit we get when we come into alignment with another even for a brief moment, the Serotonin stress driven conflicting argumentation wears me down.

 

[PeatThemAll]

1- "The mind is for having ideas, not storing them." -- David Allen (GTD)
2- Be. Here. Now.
3- Serenity Prayer = Always a good thing to keep one's focus accurate.
4- Much in line with the OP, there's that gray zone between the Meditation (too much into one's inner feeback) and Distraction (any feedback outside of one's inner signals) called the Peak Performance / Flow / Deep Think / Deep Work.

For starters, I am an introvert. Getting lost in thought / imagination / myself / ideas is so easy it's not even funny. And if I overdo it, it creates anxiety.

Sure, Meditation-like practices can help one re-center, but to me it's more like the emergency brake (stop, off-base, re-center, get back to square one, change direction) that's needed to reach what I listed at the end of #4. To me, there's no substitute to (adequate) performance. It's rather hard to think myself in (or out) of a good performance review (got it done, great, next!). And of course a bad performance review is still the best antidote to Woo-Woo thinking ("Take care of this, now! Woo Woo thinking won't matter or save you from the outside-the-Woo-bubble boss / client / teacher who quite simply doesn't want to - or have to - care").

TL;DR - Start where you are. Don't get lost in thought. Solutions / Results > Meditation. Take care of the Now, one chunk at a time, and trust your ability to zero-in on what's best for you (our ancestors survived with far, far less and still made it through).

 

[Xisca]

Amazing the dopamine hit we get when we come into alignment with another even for a brief moment, the Serotonin stress driven conflicting argumentation wears me down.

I am still not used to translate feelings into neurotransmisors words! Even though I am not the last who would agree that behaviors and feelings and even spirituality, all this is physiological... (we can be a soul, but this soul has chosen to be incarnated.... we have a few years to profit of it, and the eternity to experiment the rest!)

So thanks for giving me an idea of what are the actual effects of dopamine and serotonine...
I do not understand you well for serotonine. According to my 1st understandings, it looks to me as responsable for the freeze response, as in hibertating... or the torpor instead of real sleep...

 

[Xisca]

I can relate with that. To me, meditation is thinking. Thinking deeply about things and then letting them go. If the thoughts comes back to you, especially several times, then it's signaling to you what you need to accept or discard within yourself and in your circumstances, and make the necessary changes....or not. But not to force things, because that never works out when you force "change".

May I suggest a variation? We do always think, but what if we can add something, which is going to be more specific during the meditation?
I think anyone can agree that when we think, it is not always a meditation.
Now let's say that you meditate and think, and add this question:"When I think about this, what do I feel?".
Feeling having a double meaning, if you feel something at physiological level, then you are at the basic level of the here and now.
If you come to a feeling in form of an emotion, then add this question:"How do I know in my body that I have this emotion?"
It will always be somewhere, in muscles, in the guts....
Then focus on the body sensation and think,with curiosity "This will not last forever, let's see how it is going to change"
Then, what you want to discard, -I just take your Word- might go away with this change at body level, and then something else will change at other levels. This body scan is "tracking", but following without any hunting meaning!
Then you can reach the change without forcing it, you just help it to happen.
If it did not need help, we would do it all the time, and we do not discharge the ANS on a regular basis.
Meditating can be a way to let the ANS all the TIME it needs to regulate as it is mean to do, according to its name: in an autonomous way!

 

[amethyst]

1- "The mind is for having ideas, not storing them." -- David Allen (GTD)
2- Be. Here. Now.
3- Serenity Prayer = Always a good thing to keep one's focus accurate.
4- Much in line with the OP, there's that gray zone between the Meditation (too much into one's inner feeback) and Distraction (any feedback outside of one's inner signals) called the Peak Performance / Flow / Deep Think / Deep Work.

For starters, I am an introvert. Getting lost in thought / imagination / myself / ideas is so easy it's not even funny. And if I overdo it, it creates anxiety.

Sure, Meditation-like practices can help one re-center, but to me it's more like the emergency brake (stop, off-base, re-center, get back to square one, change direction) that's needed to reach what I listed at the end of #4. To me, there's no substitute to (adequate) performance. It's rather hard to think myself in (or out) of a good performance review (got it done, great, next!). And of course a bad performance review is still the best antidote to Woo-Woo thinking ("Take care of this, now! Woo Woo thinking won't matter or save you from the outside-the-Woo-bubble boss / client / teacher who quite simply doesn't want to - or have to - care").

TL;DR - Start where you are. Don't get lost in thought. Solutions / Results > Meditation. Take care of the Now, one chunk at a time, and trust your ability to zero-in on what's best for you (our ancestors survived with far, far less and still made it through).

May I suggest a variation? We do always think, but what if we can add something, which is going to be more specific during the meditation?
I think anyone can agree that when we think, it is not always a meditation.
Now let's say that you meditate and think, and add this question:"When I think about this, what do I feel?".
Feeling having a double meaning, if you feel something at physiological level, then you are at the basic level of the here and now.
If you come to a feeling in form of an emotion, then add this question:"How do I know in my body that I have this emotion?"
It will always be somewhere, in muscles, in the guts....
Then focus on the body sensation and think,with curiosity "This will not last forever, let's see how it is going to change"
Then, what you want to discard, -I just take your Word- might go away with this change at body level, and then something else will change at other levels. This body scan is "tracking", but following without any hunting meaning!
Then you can reach the change without forcing it, you just help it to happen.
If it did not need help, we would do it all the time, and we do not discharge the ANS on a regular basis.
Meditating can be a way to let the ANS all the TIME it needs to regulate as it is mean to do, according to its name: in an autonomous way!

Well, yes, we are always "thinking". But to elaborate, I feel meditation is a more purposeful type of "thinking". A more focused type of thinking. In other words, thinking with a purpose. And much of the time, we don't do that. We just go throughout our day on autopilot, doing repetitive things without giving them much thought.

For example, the smart phone. You see people walking around totally absorbed in their smartphones, constantly checking and checking and re-checking their messages over and over again. They are literally living thru their smartphones. It's like they can't operate without viewing their phones 24/7. I'm sure many of us have seen videos of people walking into walls and into traffic whilst viewing their phones. I've been to films where I have observed that as soon as everyone has departed the theater, their first inclination is to check their phone because God forbid they miss that oh so important message from someone

The smartphone has it's place, and it's conveniences, but I feel we need to re-prioritize our obsession with our phones. And I should say I don't have a smartphone on purpose for those reasons, but that's me. What you do with your phone is your business But let's give some thought to our obsession with them.

I don't think it is healthy. Yet, it's become a cultural habit to do so.

Now, not that certain behaviors we do are bad necessarily, because we have to do certain things regularly like, shower, brush our teeth etc. etc.But I think we would do well to give more thought to the motivations of why we do certain things, and if we are seeing that certain behaviors we do, are causing us to go backwards, or, are not helping us to achieve our goals, then we can make adjustments to stop that backward slope.

 

[amethyst]

1- "The mind is for having ideas, not storing them." -- David Allen (GTD)
2- Be. Here. Now.
3- Serenity Prayer = Always a good thing to keep one's focus accurate.
4- Much in line with the OP, there's that gray zone between the Meditation (too much into one's inner feeback) and Distraction (any feedback outside of one's inner signals) called the Peak Performance / Flow / Deep Think / Deep Work.

For starters, I am an introvert. Getting lost in thought / imagination / myself / ideas is so easy it's not even funny. And if I overdo it, it creates anxiety.

Sure, Meditation-like practices can help one re-center, but to me it's more like the emergency brake (stop, off-base, re-center, get back to square one, change direction) that's needed to reach what I listed at the end of #4. To me, there's no substitute to (adequate) performance. It's rather hard to think myself in (or out) of a good performance review (got it done, great, next!). And of course a bad performance review is still the best antidote to Woo-Woo thinking ("Take care of this, now! Woo Woo thinking won't matter or save you from the outside-the-Woo-bubble boss / client / teacher who quite simply doesn't want to - or have to - care").

TL;DR - Start where you are. Don't get lost in thought. Solutions / Results > Meditation. Take care of the Now, one chunk at a time, and trust your ability to zero-in on what's best for you (our ancestors survived with far, far less and still made it through).

I tend to be an introvert as well. And yes we can definitely overthink things which can lead to having anxiety and obsessive thought patterns. Not a good thing. It's about balance. I would agree with you that meditation is about re-centering yourself and oftentimes we just need to "do" something for the sake of getting it done rather than obsessing over it. Just jumping in at times is a good thing too. I like your example of the Serenity Prayer. That's a good reminder to keep our priorities in their proper perspective.

 

[Xisca]

Well, yes, we are always "thinking". But to elaborate, I feel meditation is a more purposeful type of "thinking". A more focused type of thinking. In other words, thinking with a purpose. And much of the time, we don't do that. We just go throughout our day on autopilot, doing repetitive things without giving them much thought.

Well, that can be meditative thinking.... but meditation is when you do not stay thinking with the cortex part of your brain only. If you apply the felt sense to what you said about your opinión about pone, you might notice what is your emotion about it, I guess between anger and sadness, and then you can go deeper into where in your body you feel those sensations, and how does it feel etc., what does it modifiy in your body. This will unite all the part of the brain into unity, and you will feel what you think, and this will add something to your way of meditating. You can try out of curiosity!

 

[zelda_the_brain]

Words are a human construct and meditation can help you see the world more for what it is than what you call it. Your thought are usually formed by words but that's not the only way to see the world.

Your brainwaves are even different when you meditate. You can read about alpha waves which are suppressed when you are awake with eyes open or asleep or tired.

Meditation can also help you to retrain your breathing to be slower and more natural thereby getting more needed carbon dioxide.

"You are an aperture through which the universe is looking at and exploring itself." -Alan Watts

 

[Xisca]

I like Alan Watts, I listened to a lot of audios of him during one month I was ill this summer!
This is true what you say about going beyond words, and the felt sense is a good link to what you feel about what you think...

 

[zelda_the_brain]

I like Alan Watts, I listened to a lot of audios of him during one month I was ill this summer!
This is true what you say about going beyond words, and the felt sense is a good link to what you feel about what you think...

YES! Alan watts really helped me get through some times where I was feeling very helpless.

I'm really glad to hear how meditation has helped others, too. It has really helped me stay calm and grounded.