What's The Verdict On Meditation From A Bioenergetic Perspective?

lampofred

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Mainstream says it's good for you, at least in the sense of reducing stress, but obviously this forum is proof that much mainstream knowledge is untrue.

Many meditators I know actually transformed into authoritarian rule followers (left wing authoritarian as opposed to right wing authoritarian), and either lost spontaneity or exhibited a very fake "excitatory" spontaneity. I actually even read that meditation increases the size of the left temporal lobe, which estrogen also does, whereas progesterone I think increases the size of the right temporal lobe. But from a theoretical perspective, it makes sense -- reducing stress/cortisol should increase thyroid function. I remember that Dr. Peat himself once said "not really" or something along those lines in an interview when someone asked if he recommended meditation and said just being aware/not being in your head all the time is the extent of what he recommends.

So what are some hard facts on meditation? Any effect on temps/pulse/TSH?
 
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Meditation is a way they supress free will, creative thinking, and almost all executive brain functions. Good way to make yourself numb and dumb neurotic. I went through various meditation centers and monasteries in South-East Asia. I have opinion that meditation supresses neo-cortex activity. If you do it long time it could turn neo-cortex off forever.
 
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I have to stress on Vipassana. STAY AWAY. Its a very sophisticated way to create mental issues out of nothing via psychological stress-induced rollercoaster.
 

gaze

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i thinks it’s useful because the attention span of people is only a few seconds as opposed to 15 or so seconds i believe which people had before technology. our minds take in so much information with social media and the constant new thing on our phone that our brains are moving incredibly fast, so slowing down the mind is useful and generally puts the organisms mind at ease.
 

jdrop

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If harnessed as a tool to reduce stress, the effects of less stress are beneficial.
 

thomas00

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There are a few pretty remarkable studies people have posted on here. From memory there was one showing a significant increase in metabolism and t3.

It's obviously not all there is to living a life free of delusion and stress given the amount of meditators who exhibit those traits. Getting involved in one those 'communities' seems to turn out pretty poorly for most people.
 

Hugh Johnson

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What do you mean by meditation? There are hundreds or thousands of meditative practices, depending on how you count. Alan Watts said of meditation that it is like a medicine, it is supposed to be taken for a specific purpose not just consumed mindlessly.
 

Entropy

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You cultivate energy meditating..

Specific brainwaves are observed to oscillate in 'alpha', 'theta' from those who meditate successfully.

We live in an over active and stimulated society, so meditation provides stress relief.

There are some studies out that measure meditation practitioners increase DHEA, while decreasing cortisol..

So yeah there are practical benefits and observed physiological reactions.

Beyond physical, there are metaphysical dynamics, which have been studied outside main stream but left ignored or classified...
 

revenant

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I would imagine the breathing exercises might be useful from this perspective, the "mindfulness" and other parts (not thinking about anything) maybe not so much.
 

vulture

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Zazen tends to suggest a slow exhalation breathing that tends to warm the body and I also asume to increase CO2.
 
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Meditation is a way they supress free will, creative thinking, and almost all executive brain functions. Good way to make yourself numb and dumb neurotic. I went through various meditation centers and monasteries in South-East Asia. I have opinion that meditation supresses neo-cortex activity. If you do it long time it could turn neo-cortex off forever.

+1

I also believe that meditation is a dangerous technique, and saw reports from meditation induced disease states, and reports of the weird group dynamics in this scene. It is like bad biofeeedback, which trains you to be just there, and not to judge so much, not so critical the entire time, ahahaha!
 

snacks

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I have to stress on Vipassana. STAY AWAY. Its a very sophisticated way to create mental issues out of nothing via psychological stress-induced rollercoaster.

Yeah, this is a very common thing although you wouldn't be saying this if Theravadins were better about teaching people to actually meditate. There is basically no point in trying any kind of insight meditation if you can't reach at least true access concentration or it will end exactly as you've described

Zazen tends to suggest a slow exhalation breathing that tends to warm the body and I also asume to increase CO2.

I think this is the best thing about the Qigong and also the chan/zen approaches to meditation. Their focus on quiet breathing is very effective at teaching how to breathe without reinforcing patterns of tension in the body which is obviously very good from a bioenergenetic standpoint but also just makes sitting easier and less painful
 

Collden

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Meditation is self-hypnosis, it puts your mind in a more receptive and malleable state, the resulting change can be either good or bad depending on the subsequent input.

Doing doing too much of it in isolation will turn your mind into goo. Done in combination with other activities that aim to break down limiting beliefs, conquer your fears and take you out of your comfort zone, it can accelerate positive change.
 

gately

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Yeah, this is a very common thing although you wouldn't be saying this if Theravadins were better about teaching people to actually meditate. There is basically no point in trying any kind of insight meditation if you can't reach at least true access concentration or it will end exactly as you've described

This is accurate. Snacks are you also a Theravadist? If so that's weird how we started posting a bunch around the same time.

Anyway, there's a reason why the infamous 10 day "Vipassana" retreats now make people sign a mental health waiver: too many people were going insane.

Insight-Only is such a brutal way to go, especially if you don't pace yourself. The internet is literally rife with nasty mental health stories with those kinds of schools and teachings. The bliss of shamatha is what stabilizes the practice, and why the Buddha basically said over and over and over, "Do jhana."

But there's a harsher truth. The reality is some people shouldn't even do shamatha. This is a super unpopular opinion, but screw it: There's a reason the Noble Eightfold path was taught in a specific order, and people with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, and wrong mindfulness have ZERO business learning to concentrate. Merit has a lot to do with it, imo. And if the merit isn't there, and things get scary (and they always, eventually get scary) it just leads to disaster.
 

Uselis

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This is accurate. Snacks are you also a Theravadist? If so that's weird how we started posting a bunch around the same time.

Anyway, there's a reason why the infamous 10 day "Vipassana" retreats now make people sign a mental health waiver: too many people were going insane.

Insight-Only is such a brutal way to go, especially if you don't pace yourself. The internet is literally rife with nasty mental health stories with those kinds of schools and teachings. The bliss of shamatha is what stabilizes the practice, and why the Buddha basically said over and over and over, "Do jhana."

But there's a harsher truth. The reality is some people shouldn't even do shamatha. This is a super unpopular opinion, but screw it: There's a reason the Noble Eightfold path was taught in a specific order, and people with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, and wrong mindfulness have ZERO business learning to concentrate. Merit has a lot to do with it, imo. And if the merit isn't there, and things get scary (and they always, eventually get scary) it just leads to disaster.

Interesting thoughts! My own experience is that while I've never experienced such intense pleasure like jhana elswhere whenever I'd "come down" I had problems relating to people and mundane things in general. Was drifting in careless state too much.
 

gately

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Interesting thoughts! My own experience is that while I've never experienced such intense pleasure like jhana elswhere whenever I'd "come down" I had problems relating to people and mundane things in general. Was drifting in careless state too much.

Story time!

I had been practicing shamatha for about six months, completely on my own when I was about 23. I had read some books on it from a Hindu tradition I was interested in at the time and then sat in my closet for six months, 5 hours a day. Nothing I had read said there would be a danger to doing it that much, and I wanted to reach "enlightenment" so I figured why not go all out? That's always been my nature: all or nothing and head-first. Plus, it felt good. I apparently had a strong karmic link to the practice, because I was seeing the faint light of the nimitta within about a week. And the experience was so enchanting: It kept feeling like I was on the cusp of something, like an orgasm, but somehow more powerful, and I could never let go of my attachment enough to break through whatever it was. Then one night, I felt determined: I sat in my chair and told myself, "I'm not going to get up until I know what's on the other side of that feeling." I sat all night. And then it happened: I experienced what I am convinced was the full nimitta: the bright light broke my awareness and took me to jhana. I was so unprepared I leapt out my chair and started pacing around my apartment going, 'There is a God! There is a God!" and then realized how crazy that sounded so I didn't speak about it again for five years, but the direct aftermath of this experience was I basically drifted in a weirdly energetic, yet mindless and equanimous state for about four months. I was in college at the time and I remember going to classes and just sitting there with a hidden smile on my face, barely able to hear what anyone was saying because I couldn't care less what anyone was saying, while I played with my fingertips touching each other ever-so-softly because EVERYTHING suddenly felt so good. Interestingly, the whole experience was eerily similar to my experiments with free-basing crack as a teenager, with a similar corresponding, long lasting craving as well.

Moral of the story: Don't smoke crack, kids. Smoke jhana, but responsibly. Get a teacher.

Anyway, there's a reason they call the longterm jhana meditators "jhana junkies."

So, I get it. At least I think I get it. Who knows. All I can say definitively is I am a living example of why people should not learn to seriously mediate without a qualified teacher, or outside a time-tested, gradual, and progressive path. Because while those four blissed out months were fun, they were also frighteningly destabilizing. Eventually I came back down to earth, and diet played a big role in that (I had been a vegan at the time, and it's probably why I stayed in that ungrounded state for so long) which in a roundabout way is what brought me to Ray Peat's writings. But I'm one of the lucky ones. Spend enough time in amateur led meditation communities, and you'll see what poorly taught mediation can do to people.
 
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snacks

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This is accurate. Snacks are you also a Theravadist? If so that's weird how we started posting a bunch around the same time.

Anyway, there's a reason why the infamous 10 day "Vipassana" retreats now make people sign a mental health waiver: too many people were going insane.

Insight-Only is such a brutal way to go, especially if you don't pace yourself. The internet is literally rife with nasty mental health stories with those kinds of schools and teachings. The bliss of shamatha is what stabilizes the practice, and why the Buddha basically said over and over and over, "Do jhana."

But there's a harsher truth. The reality is some people shouldn't even do shamatha. This is a super unpopular opinion, but screw it: There's a reason the Noble Eightfold path was taught in a specific order, and people with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, and wrong mindfulness have ZERO business learning to concentrate. Merit has a lot to do with it, imo. And if the merit isn't there, and things get scary (and they always, eventually get scary) it just leads to disaster.

I guess ideally I would like to go to a Chinese, Japanese Zen or Tibetan sangha but well everything is closed down right now and my desire to become buddhist is post-covid so for the time I basically practice like a Theravadin. If I go back to the south of Russia I'll probably move somewhere with kalmyks and that'll settle the question for me. I'm neutral on sectarian questions but I'm currently trying to make my way through Nagarjuna and the mahayana POV seems coherent to me. Anyways with westerners and Jhana I get confused because there are so many states that qualify for jhana but are obviously different from each other. I've seen westerners talk about walking around in First Jhana whereas Thai Theravada teachers make it sound like those people are just on a pseudo-jhana that isn't even access concentration. If this were true it would explain some of the erratic behavior forum buddhists (dunno what else to call them) exhibit haha.

The thing that has me convinced that most western meditators are mistaking an entirely different state for jhana is the fact that they don't really follow the 8-fold path or the ethical side of the Dharma, which from an orthodox point of view would seem to keep your mind from settling into true jhana
 

Collden

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Story time!

I had been practicing shamatha for about six months, completely on my own when I was about 23. I had read some books on it from a Hindu tradition I was interested in at the time and then sat in my closet for six months, 5 hours a day. Nothing I had read said there would be a danger to doing it that much, and I wanted to reach "enlightenment" so I figured why not go all out? That's always been my nature: all or nothing and head-first. Plus, it felt good. I apparently had a strong karmic link to the practice, because I was seeing the faint light of the nimitta within about a week. And the experience was so enchanting: It kept feeling like I was on the cusp of something, like an orgasm, but somehow more powerful, and I could never let go of my attachment enough to break through whatever it was. Then one night, I felt determined: I sat in my chair and told myself, "I'm not going to get up until I know what's on the other side of that feeling." I sat all night. And then it happened: I experienced what I am convinced was the full nimitta: the bright light broke my awareness and took me to jhana. I was so unprepared I leapt out my chair and started pacing around my apartment going, 'There is a God! There is a God!" and then realized how crazy that sounded so I didn't speak about it again for five years, but the direct aftermath of this experience was I basically drifted in a weirdly energetic, yet mindless and equanimous state for about four months. I was in college at the time and I remember going to classes and just sitting there with a hidden smile on my face, barely able to hear what anyone was saying because I couldn't care less what anyone was saying, while I played with my fingertips touching each other ever-so-softly because EVERYTHING suddenly felt so good. Interestingly, the whole experience was eerily similar to my experiments with free-basing crack as a teenager, with a similar corresponding, long lasting craving as well.

Moral of the story: Don't smoke crack, kids. Smoke jhana, but responsibly. Get a teacher.

Anyway, there's a reason they call the longterm jhana meditators "jhana junkies."

So, I get it. At least I think I get it. Who knows. All I can say definitively is I am a living example of why people should not learn to seriously mediate without a qualified teacher, or outside a time-tested, gradual, and progressive path. Because while those four blissed out months were fun, they were also frighteningly destabilizing. Eventually I came back down to earth, and diet played a big role in that (I had been a vegan at the time, and it's probably why I stayed in that ungrounded state for so long) which in a roundabout way is what brought me to Ray Peat's writings. But I'm one of the lucky ones. Spend enough time in amateur led meditation communities, and you'll see what poorly taught mediation can do to people.
Becoming convinced that "enlightenment" is the end goal of meditation is I think a trap that many fall into. Being enlightened should ideally be the starting point of life, not the end, but perhaps it is necessary to die in a metaphorical sense before you can start anew.

With good loving parents you can attain those insights during childhood, which will anchor your heart in love and allow you to later live your life from a place of inner security. Its only people who had a less than ideal childhood environment who need this spiritual search to rediscover their connection with the infinite. I think what Alan Watts said about psychedelic drugs applies equally well to meditation

"When you get the message, hang up the phone"

Buddha himself had a traumatic childhood and I'm sure this greatly influenced his later attitude to life, and why it is so different from e.g Jesus Christ.
 
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snacks

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Becoming convinced that "enlightenment" is the end goal of meditation is I think a trap that many fall into. Being enlightened should ideally be the starting point of life, not the end, but perhaps it is necessary to die in a metaphorical sense before you can start anew.

With good loving parents you can attain those insights during childhood, which will anchor your heart in love and allow you to later live your life from a place of inner security. Its only people who had a less than ideal childhood environment who need this spiritual search to rediscover their connection with the infinite. I think what Alan Watts said about psychedelic drugs applies equally well to meditation

"When you get the message, hang up the phone"

Buddha himself had a traumatic childhood and I'm sure this greatly influenced his later attitude to life, and why it is so different from e.g Jesus Christ.

Huh? Enlightenment is emphatically the goal of the Dharma. The only major sectarian conflicts within buddhism are oriented around what enlightenment means and how to get there.
 

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