What's The Verdict On Meditation From A Bioenergetic Perspective?

[Collden]

Huh? Enlightenment is emphatically the goal of the Dharma. The only major sectarian conflicts within buddhism are oriented around what enlightenment means and how to get there.

Yeah and Buddhism is inherently anti-life, founded by a man whose natural mother died at birth and was subsequently held prisoner in a palace and raised with massive expectations on him to one day become king, hence his gloomy take on life.

I think there is more to spirituality than what Buddhism teaches, it should empower you to live, not encourage you to die.

 

[gately]

I guess ideally I would like to go to a Chinese, Japanese Zen or Tibetan sangha but well everything is closed down right now and my desire to become buddhist is post-covid so for the time I basically practice like a Theravadin. If I go back to the south of Russia I'll probably move somewhere with kalmyks and that'll settle the question for me. I'm neutral on sectarian questions but I'm currently trying to make my way through Nagarjuna and the mahayana POV seems coherent to me. Anyways with westerners and Jhana I get confused because there are so many states that qualify for jhana but are obviously different from each other. I've seen westerners talk about walking around in First Jhana whereas Thai Theravada teachers make it sound like those people are just on a pseudo-jhana that isn't even access concentration. If this were true it would explain some of the erratic behavior forum buddhists (dunno what else to call them) exhibit haha.

The thing that has me convinced that most western meditators are mistaking an entirely different state for jhana is the fact that they don't really follow the 8-fold path or the ethical side of the Dharma, which from an orthodox point of view would seem to keep your mind from settling into true jhana

I'm fairly well versed in Mahayana and Vajrayana if you ever want someone to discuss it with me. Spent a lot of time practicing Tibetan Buddhism, for instance, but I am presently disillusioned by Mahayana in general.

As far as the ethical side of dharma, such as the paramitas, being a prerequisite to jhana: Well, I can't speak with completely authority on this, but I have my suspicions. I personally don't think it's a requirement at all. This is based on my discussions with many other practitioners, and my dipping the toes into different faiths over the last decade. I'm fairly certain people learning Transcendental Meditation, for instance, which is shamatha with a silent mantra as object, are experiencing the same levels of phenomena, and there's no, or very little, moral teachings there. There's also very qualified jhana-specific meditation teachers in the US who regularly guide people to jhana, sometimes as quickly as a few days, and it's strictly meditational technique (as far as I'm aware,) there aren't other dharma teachings at those retreats.

For sure, attachment is a hinderance to strong concentration. Being a dirtbag isn't, necessarily. Plenty of powerful, psychopathic dirtbags with excellent concentration in this world of ours. Merit is funny like that.

Now whether jhana would lead someone to naturally be less of a dirtbag, is an interesting idea to explore. But I'm not convinced of that either. I've met plenty of repugnant, and yet well-accomplished, longterm meditators.

You have to remember the Buddha did not invent shamatha or jhana. The unenlightened teachers he was going to before his enlightenment were all jhana junkies. That's all anybody knew before the Buddha took his own mind as object under the Bodhi tree, and resolved to awaken. The buddha would regularly go into the fourth jhana, or whatever, and then come back and be like, "There has to be more than this. This isn't enlightenment if I'm still coming back to this duhkha."

I think there's many reasons for the ethical teachings on the Buddhist path, and I would go so far as to say they are the most important aspect of the Buddhist path, but as far as concentration goes, my opinion is they really only serve to keep one from developing worse attachment.

 

[snacks]

I'm fairly well versed in Mahayana and Vajrayana if you ever want someone to discuss it with me. Spent a lot of time practicing Tibetan Buddhism, for instance, but I am presently disillusioned by Mahayana in general.

As far as the ethical side of dharma, such as the paramitas, being a prerequisite to jhana: Well, I can't speak with completely authority on this, but I have my suspicions. I personally don't think it's a requirement at all. This is based on my discussions with many other practitioners, and my dipping the toes into different faiths over the last decade. I'm fairly certain people learning Transcendental Meditation, for instance, which is shamatha with a silent mantra as object, are experiencing the same levels of phenomena, and there's no, or very little, moral teachings there. There's also very qualified jhana-specific meditation teachers in the US who regularly guide people to jhana, sometimes as quickly as a few days, and it's strictly meditational technique (as far as I'm aware,) there aren't other dharma teachings at those retreats.

For sure, attachment is a hinderance to strong concentration. Being a dirtbag isn't, necessarily. Plenty of powerful, psychopathic dirtbags with excellent concentration in this world of ours. Merit is funny like that.

Now whether jhana would lead someone to naturally be less of a dirtbag, is an interesting idea to explore. But I'm not convinced of that either. I've met plenty of repugnant, and yet well-accomplished, longterm meditators.

You have to remember the Buddha did not invent shamatha or jhana. The unenlightened teachers he was going to before his enlightenment were all jhana junkies. That's all anybody knew before the Buddha took his own mind as object under the Bodhi tree, and resolved to awaken. The buddha would regularly go into the fourth jhana, or whatever, and then come back and be like, "There has to be more than this. This isn't enlightenment if I'm still coming back to this duhkha."

I think there's many reasons for the ethical teachings on the Buddhist path, and I would go so far as to say they are the most important aspect of the Buddhist path, but as far as concentration goes, my opinion is they really only serve to keep one from developing worse attachment.

It's possible I'm jumping the gun at the moment. I used to be able to meditate for fairly lengthy periods but am currently struggling with shorter sessions even. I'll say you're probably correct and leave it at that since I've reached the limit of my non-speculative qualifications. As far as Theravada and Vajrayana, sure I'll take you up on talking about it probably when things are open again

 

[gately]

Yeah and Buddhism is inherently anti-life, founded by a man whose natural mother died at birth and was subsequently held prisoner in a palace and raised with massive expectations on him to one day become king, hence his gloomy take on life.

I think there is more to spirituality than what Buddhism teaches, it should empower you to live, not encourage you to die.

I like Buddha Man because he got big round tummy and teaches me death is good af yo.

Are you for real, dude? Does it ever get exhausting just sucking on the demiurge's teet like that?

Please illuminate us on the true spiritual path, wise one.

 

[snacks]

Yeah and Buddhism is inherently anti-life, founded by a man whose natural mother died at birth and was subsequently held prisoner in a palace and raised with massive expectations on him to one day become king, hence his gloomy take on life.

I think there is more to spirituality than what Buddhism teaches, it should empower you to live, not encourage you to die.

I have no idea whether you're coming at this from a clumsy reading of Nietzsche or Alan Watts tier hallmark card spirituality so I will just decline to respond and say have a nice day at this point

 

[Collden]

I have no idea whether you're coming at this from a clumsy reading of Nietzsche or Alan Watts tier hallmark card spirituality so I will just decline to respond and say have a nice day at this point

I'm coming at this from 8 years of meditation, studying buddhist literature, hanging around new age spiritual circles and seeing how long-term buddhist practice tends to sap the zest for life out of its practitioners and cause them to withdraw. Meditation can be used to support life and draw inspiration, but buddhist philosophy in general is more apt for monks.

 

[snacks]

I'm coming at this from 8 years of meditation, studying buddhist literature, hanging around new age spiritual circles and seeing how long-term buddhist practice tends to sap the zest for life out of its practitioners and cause them to withdraw. Meditation can be used to support life and draw inspiration, but buddhist philosophy in general is more apt for monks.

Yes this is definitely the case with western practitioners and incidentally why I think mahayana and vajrayana practice are more suited to the west. It's harder to twist them into Schopenhauer's anti-life vision of Buddhism

 

[Collden]

Yes this is definitely the case with western practitioners and incidentally why I think mahayana and vajrayana practice are more suited to the west. It's harder to twist them into Schopenhauer's anti-life vision of Buddhism

Yes Vajrayana practice is more pro-life and what distinguishes it is the focus on practices that are far more intense and extreme than sitting on a cushion in a silent room - Sex, intense breathing exercises, exposure to the elements, fear and death.

But incidentally this comes closer to practices that we all instinctively know bring us closer to God, all of us are naturally drawn to sex and situations that challenge our fears (particularly of death) and push us to our mental and physical limits. We find all these things exciting, because they hold the key to spiritual growth and enlightenment. Meditation can have a place here as a tool to improve your ability to learn from life experiences, particularly for those whose natural development of mindfulness skills as a child was impaired. But its just a tool, real growth comes from living life.