Simply Diluting "old Blood" Has The Same Anti-aging Effects As Parabiosis

Tarmander

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How frequently did you take these saline bags? Once a week for 12 weeks? Did you have 6 pints of saline infused at a time?

I ask because this might be the level that's necessary to achieve "anti-aging" effects.
Let me ask you this, does this study change your behavior at all?

Whenever I read a study like this, I try and get out of the theoretical realm and think of implications.

If I believe this is true...that slightly salty water and a protein combined, have massive anti-aging benefits, then my behavior needs to change.

I need to forget about hormones, b vitamins, thyroid, microbiome. I need to get albumin and saline and figure out how to both get myself going on it so I can start my life as vampire lestat, and I need to figure out how to monetize these very inexpensive ingredients as a treatment.

If you're not changing your approach from a study like this, then I would say you probably don't believe it either. And if you do, I look forward to reading about your results.
 

tankasnowgod

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Let me ask you this, does this study change your behavior at all?

Whenever I read a study like this, I try and get out of the theoretical realm and think of implications.

If I believe this is true...that slightly salty water and a protein combined, have massive anti-aging benefits, then my behavior needs to change.

I need to forget about hormones, b vitamins, thyroid, microbiome. I need to get albumin and saline and figure out how to both get myself going on it so I can start my life as vampire lestat, and I need to figure out how to monetize these very inexpensive ingredients as a treatment.

If you're not changing your approach from a study like this, then I would say you probably don't believe it either. And if you do, I look forward to reading about your results.

None of that answered my question. I was just curious how often you had tried it.

I've not had many IVs in my life, save around the time of surgery. But I certainly wouldn't hesitate to do several saline IVs over the course of a few weeks as an experiment in this regard, assuming access to IVs and such.
 

Tarmander

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None of that answered my question. I was just curious how often you had tried it.

I've not had many IVs in my life, save around the time of surgery. But I certainly wouldn't hesitate to do several saline IVs over the course of a few weeks as an experiment in this regard, assuming access to IVs and such.
your question assumed the validity of the study so I answered that.

I have never had 6 bags of saline back to back, but I was getting a bag every couple weeks for a few months. Don't really know of anyone who has had that much saline. That seems risky
 

yerrag

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Thank you so much - please continue! I read all of your posts end-to-end, as I am trying to learn all I can. I am a retired engineer (systems, software), but no biology/chemistry/medical background.

I definitely have the signs of hypoglycemia that you describe - waking up at 4am and unable to get back to sleep for example, and sudden "drain" at various times during the day. I had a GTT decades ago in which I had what they call a "flat curve" hypoglycemia (it didn't go high enough after the glucose, but dropped to 52 later in the test). Because my fasting glucose is always in the 90's, no doc since ever considers a GTT.

So I could increase potassium by drinking more OJ, but what else can I do? And thanks again!
It's hard to pinpoint if potassium is deficient, so that shouldn't be the sole focus. And OJ, while rich in potassium, is full of simple sugars. If you tend towards hypoglycemia, taking simple sugars isn't helpful in maintaining stable blood sugar. You have to take the carbs that suit the state of your blood sugar regulation. The potassium could come from, aside from meat, from vegetables. And vegetable juicing would be a way to get plenty of potassium without the simple sugars. Since there is little sugar in vegetable juices, be mindful that it may cause a lot of blood sugar to be absorbed by the tissues, as it may leave you low on blood sugar as well. So taking it with some carbs would help.

Since you want to build your body's potassium stores, you have to build your magnesium stores as well. If magnesium stores are low, your body won't be able to store the potassium you're intaking and the potassium will just as easily be excreted. People just assume their magnesium stores are fine, or hope that they're fine. Reliable tests of magnesium are expensive, and a cheap reliable way to do it nobody cares to do, as it involves a few steps (An example: people here don't even care to do a simple Achilles tendon reflex test with a cheap $5 neuro hammer to test their thyroid, preferring to use expensive blood tests). I also dispensed with a magnesium test and assumed I was magnesium deficient. I went six months on therapeutic magnesium using magnesium bicarbonate at 800ng/day before settling on a maintenance mode of 400mg/day. I make my own mag bicarb, mixing 1 liter of seltzer water with 2 grams of magnesium hydroxide for 800mg elemental magnesium.

Since you're hypoglycemic, it's good to take carbs that take a longer time to get digested, so that the assimilation of sugar into blood is slow. So instead of the flash flood with simple sugars, you have a slow steady stream of sugar going into your blood which takes a longer time to feed into you. Complex carbs do that (forget the voices that say complex carbs are overrated - nothing is overrated, it's what's suitable to your condition). White rice is a complex carb. And if you want to slow down further the digestion, eat a complex carb that has fiber (the diehard Peaters will criticize this, ignore them - blood sugar regulation is more important for you than a few soluble fibers that get into your system). Brown rice is an example. Sweet potato (with skin) is another. I'm not saying you stop drinking OJ forever, but for your situation, until you are able to optimize your blood sugar regulation, you have to stick with carbs that don't stress your system. Blood sugar fluctuations - going super high after a meal and then going super low an hour or two later - stresses your system. Insulin, in my opinion, is as much a stress hormone as cortisol is. If your insulin level is as high as it is now, it's good to find ways to make it come down.

By the way, I wrote Ray Peat last night. I complained to him about this forum having many people getting overweight and obese because they don't understand Peat principles fully. I asked him if he could devote a whole newsletter to address this. People are criticizing him not because he's wrong, it's because they need to be told by Ray specifically why drinking OJ and eating loads of sugar isn't right if their blood sugar regular isn't optimal.

Before I proceed, let's move this to another thread. As this is out of topic. Can you make a new thread. Then let's discuss how we can go about fixing your situation.
 

JudiBlueHen

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Before I proceed, let's move this to another thread. As this is out of topic. Can you make a new thread. Then let's discuss how we can go about fixing your situation.
Completely agree this has become OT. Will start a new thread for this topic - thanks!
 

Vinny

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@yerrag, @Vinny, help me out here. I'm 73, normal fasting serum glucose (90 mg/dL) but high insulin (16-18 uU/mL), HOMA-IR 3.8, and high cholesterol (but I refuse statins). So what is the recommendation to enhance my glucose metabolism/regulation? Note - I minimize (but not eliminate) PUFAs, FWIW.
Judi, I don't know what to say, honestly.
I mean, I can say many things, but I'm afraid they might conflict with the general trend of this forum and confuse you.
However, @Hans, who's one of the healthiest and most knowledgeable members here has written a great article on how to restore glucose oxidation and I'm planning to jump on it soon. It is a must read for everyone who wants to fix sugar metabolizm.
@yerrag also has much better understanding of the topic than me.
 
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The topic of using blood from young people to stave off aging and disease is hardly new. Rumors have been circulating for centuries that the old and rich use all kinds of gruesome methods to acquire blood from young people and use that blood for all sorts of bizarre rejuvenating procedures. There is even a company in California that offers a "young blood" infusion treatment for a hefty price, and the rumor is that this company counts the world's elite as its clients. A number of recent scientific studies seem to provide evidence in favor of the idea that replacing "old" blood with "young" one has anti-aging and anti-disease effects. The procedure is known in scientific circles as "parabiosis" and involved the physical joining of two organisms for the purpose of creating a single circulatory system and as such allowing one organism to influence the health/biochemistry of the other. Those recent studies demonstrated that when an old animals is conjoined with a young one, there is a profound rejuvenating effect on the old animal and many of the signs (and diseases) of aging disappear. These results got a lot of people interested in finding out what the "aging" factors in old blood are, of course, with the hope that it would turn out to be some obscure protein that can be specifically (and profitably) targeted with a vaccine, CRISPR technique, or a drug. Peat spoke about parabiosis during some of the KMUD interviews and shared the opinion that the process is probably nothing special but involved mostly the reduction in levels of free fatty acids (FFA) in the conjoined animals, given that their levels are quite low in the young animal and that is what is mostly responsible for its vitality and health. The study below partially corroborates Peat's views and demonstrates that a simple process of diluting the "old" blood while keeping albumin levels constant is enough to produce the same beneficial effects as parabiosis. In other words, removing all factors that carry an "age" imprint (whether young or old) creates a "neutral age" blood replacement and the study demonstrated that infusions with this neutral-age solution to old animals is just as anti-aging and therapeutic as parabiosis. The study does not directly single out FFA as the culprit in aging, however, considering that cells and glucose in the diluted blood were kept constant the only remaining factors that got diluted are various proteins leaking from cells in the body into the bloodstream and of course FFA. Considering the already existing evidence that cellular debris is hardly inert and can actually robustly activate the HPA axis, I think the it is quite plausible that precisely the reduction in such debris and FFA as a result of the dilution process is what triggers the anti-aging effects and allows the organism to restore itself to its youthful glory. No special tricks or multi-million dollar treatments needed.

Aging
https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/06/1...ma-rejuvenates-tissue-reverses-aging-in-mice/
"...After the Conboys published their groundbreaking 2005 work, showing that making conjoined twins from the old mouse and a young mouse reversed many signs of aging in the older mouse, many researchers seized on the idea that specific proteins in young blood could be the key to unlocking the body’s latent regeneration abilities. However, in the original report, and in a more recent study, when blood was exchanged between young and old animals without physically joining them, young animals showed signs of aging. These results indicated that that young blood circulating through young veins could not compete with old blood. As a result, the Conboys pursued the idea that a buildup of certain proteins with age is the main inhibitor of tissue maintenance and repair, and that diluting these proteins with blood exchange could also be the mechanism behind the original results. If true, this would suggest an alternative, safer path to successful clinical intervention: Instead of adding proteins from young blood, which could do harm to a patient, the dilution of age-elevated proteins could be therapeutic, while also allowing for the increase of young proteins by removing factors that could suppress them."

"...To test this hypothesis, the Conboys and their colleagues came up with the idea of performing “neutral” blood exchange. Instead of exchanging the blood of a mouse with that of a younger or an older animal, they would simply dilute the blood plasma by swapping out part of the animal’s blood plasma with a solution containing plasma’s most basic ingredients: saline and a protein called albumin. The albumin included in the solution simply replenished this abundant protein, which is needed for overall biophysical and biochemical blood health and was lost when half the plasma was removed. “We thought, ‘What if we had some neutral age blood, some blood that was not young or not old?’” said Michael Conboy. “We’ll do the exchange with that, and see if it still improves the old animal. That would mean that by diluting the bad stuff in the old blood, it made the animal better. And if the young animal got worse, then that would mean that that diluting the good stuff in the young animal made the young animal worse.” After finding that the neutral blood exchange significantly improved the health of old mice, the team conducted a proteomic analysis of the blood plasma of the animals to find out how the proteins in their blood changed following the procedure. The researchers performed a similar analysis on blood plasma from humans who had undergone therapeutic plasma exchange. They found that the plasma exchange process acts almost like a molecular reset button, lowering the concentrations of a number of pro-inflammatory proteins that become elevated with age, while allowing more beneficial proteins, like those that promote vascularization, to rebound in large numbers."

"...“I think it will take some time for people to really give up the idea that that young plasma contains rejuvenation molecules, or silver bullets, for aging,” said Dobri Kiprov, a medical director of Apheresis Care Group and a co-author of the paper. “I hope our results open the door for further research into using plasma exchange — not just for aging, but also for immunomodulation.”"

nice research, thx for the sit rep!
 
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I have a hunch that it is not the saline , but freedom from autoimmunity, which is chronically manifested in the Antigen Presenting Cells APC and such. Every immunogenic encounter above threshold is snapshotted and transformed into shapes which resemble the initial antigen encounter. If we erase this memory, we reset ourselves immunologically.
 
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..we also cannot load up on saline to dilute, there is not enough space for that. We have to either replace it, or fraction it off and let the organism replace it itself; if that is true, repeated Plasma donation, which is part of the elective procedure of Blood Donation, could produce similar or all results. To clarify, there is something toxic in the immunological compartment,the plasma, of 'old blood', which we need to get rid of.
 

pepsi

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I have a hunch that it is not the saline , but freedom from autoimmunity, which is chronically manifested in the Antigen Presenting Cells APC and such. Every immunogenic encounter above threshold is snapshotted and transformed into shapes which resemble the initial antigen encounter. If we erase this memory, we reset ourselves immunologically.

Kind of like when Dr Peat states that topical anesthesia can sometimes get rid of scars because it resets the memory of the cells.
 

Ras

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I have had a ton of saline bags, I know others who have had a ton of saline bags.

They make you feel good and hydrated but aren't the fountain of youth.

Which just leaves Albumin...it just doesn't seem very likely to me unless you are actually purifying it from actual blood. Maybe that structures the water as well?
Some speculate that removing the plasma is key, as it removes many pro-aging factors. Did you have enough plasma removed before the infusions?
 

GenericName86

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..we also cannot load up on saline to dilute, there is not enough space for that. We have to either replace it, or fraction it off and let the organism replace it itself; if that is true, repeated Plasma donation, which is part of the elective procedure of Blood Donation, could produce similar or all results. To clarify, there is something toxic in the immunological compartment,the plasma, of 'old blood', which we need to get rid of.

So I should hit up the Red Cross and donate? lol. I'm O negative so they're always contacting me asking for donations.
 

tankasnowgod

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Kind of like when Dr Peat states that topical anesthesia can sometimes get rid of scars because it resets the memory of the cells.

I remember him talking about this, but I didn't know he mentioned scars. It's called "Neural Therapy," I believe.

Here's the link- Have You Tried Neural Therapy: Injecting Procaine Or Lidocaine

I totally forget his mention of "topical" application. I didn't think Lidocaine was easily obtained, but it looks like there are several OTC and pet products available.
 
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tankasnowgod

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So I should hit up the Red Cross and donate? lol. I'm O negative so they're always contacting me asking for donations.

Donating blood has been nothing but beneficial for me. Although I always donate at a local hospital. Most of what I hear about the Red Cross donation experience is negative.
 

GenericName86

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Donating blood has been nothing but beneficial for me. Although I always donate at a local hospital. Most of what I hear about the Red Cross donation experience is negative.

What kind of positive effects have you noticed from donating? I've heard people say they tend to feel quite good physically after donating a few times.
 

tankasnowgod

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What kind of positive effects have you noticed from donating? I've heard people say they tend to feel quite good physically after donating a few times.

I was quite iron loaded (starting ferritin around 444). It took about 6-8 months, but I noticed a significant improvement in mood and energy after getting de-ironed. It was really noticeable. I also was able to handle dietary carbs much better.

I personally think lowering iron was one of the key things that I did to improve my health. There's lots of studies about the long term benefits of keeping iron near deficiency, as well.
 

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