Peristalsis, fecal impaction, etc

[Tom]

I went back and forth. Ate a lot of cheese, ice cream, milk, cream, etc a couple weeks ago. But recently took a bunch of magnesium citrate because it is recommended specifically for constipation. Would that count as having increased the net surplus of each?

No orange juice, fruits, potatoes, leafy greens?

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

@Tom: I listed the things I went back and forth between, but greens, fruits, and OJ were things I usually have throughout the week.

@S_S: Sure, that's your experience only. For example, I got the same - if not quicker - bowel movement reactions from coffee with sugar & milk. Anyway, that's unrelated/confusing the issue. The issue is I seem to be somewhat allergic to coffee (not other things with caffeine) - and coffee no longer gives me 10m evacuations. When I travel for days I often get constipated, and it takes a while to recover now - and coffee has no effect (even though I don't drink it anymore).

 

[Such_Saturation]

@oxidation_is_normal: but have you tried it black recently? Just the smell is usually enough for me.

 

[mt_dreams]

I have travel bowel issues as well. Coffee, grounding, or large doses of vitamin C have worked in the past to move me back into regular patterns.

 

[BobbyDukes]

Anyone got any ideas on what fat source to use to slow absorption of coffee, if I chose to eliminate the milk? I want to see if black coffee can help me with BMs

Coconut oil is absorbed rapidly, is it not?

What about chocolate?

 

[BobbyDukes]

Anyone got any ideas on what fat source to use to slow absorption of coffee, if I chose to eliminate the milk? I want to see if black coffee can help me with BMs

Coconut oil is absorbed rapidly, is it not?

What about chocolate?

Just want to report that I just tried this, and I had luck. I brewed 4 tablespoons of freshly ground coffee in a cup of coconut water (boiled it first, naturally). I added a tablespoon of cacao powder, two tablespoons of fructose powder and 300mg of niacinamide (to blunt the caffeine - it's almost bedtime here in the UK, and I plan to go to sleep at some point tonight). Finally, I added a pinch of ceylon cinammon.

It's made me high (as caffeine usually does), but I think it's far more efficacious for me, in the bathroom dept, without milk. I think milk has been blunting this effect for me.

 

[janus]

Cheese is one of the most constipating foods

Exactly the opposite, in my experience.

 

[Tom]

@Tom: I listed the things I went back and forth between, but greens, fruits, and OJ were things I usually have throughout the week.

I guess a combined 2 kg fruits and vegetables would supply all the alkaline minerals if you eat a lot of cheese and meat, otherwise if you drink a lot of milk, 1 kg could be enough. 2 quarts of orange juice provides 4000 mg of potassium and 200 mg magnesium, and it´s suggested that the alkaline effect of magnesium is similar as that of potassium, so magnesium supplements is then relatively ineffective compared to eating fruits and vegetables for the alkalizing purposes. If you have constipation and take several teaspoons of sodium bicarbonate over a few days and it has no impact, then it may not be related to this. But it is worth trying.

 

[tara]

Not from Peat, but Reams (RBTI) said that being in an overly alkaline state (as measured by UpH, corresponding to intracellular fluid pH) tended to go with slowed bowel transit, while overly acid tended more to diarrhea. I would be cautious about supplementing several teaspoons of alkalinising baking soda without first establishing that one is not already in an overly alkaline state. A couple of people here have got themselves into milk-alkali syndrome trouble, and IIRC part of the problem was overly aggressive baking soda use. If UpH is consistently above 7, Reams would probably suggest supplementing vitamin C and/or eating more acidifying foods. I know Peat has concerns about vit-C usually being produced in ways that lead to it being likely to be contaminated. I think Reams also counted bread, pasta and cheese amongst foods likely to clog/slow the system.

Also, reduced breathing exercises and I guess bag-breathing can sometimes help relieve constipation quite quickly by restoring blood flow and oxygen supply to the digestive system if it has been lacking.

 

[Philomath]

Anyone got any ideas on what fat source to use to slow absorption of coffee, if I chose to eliminate the milk? I want to see if black coffee can help me with BMs

Coconut oil is absorbed rapidly, is it not?

What about chocolate?

Coconut oil isn't bad but it separates too quickly. I'd try MCT oil or fully hydrogenated coconut oil. Does butter have the same alkaline effects as milk? If not, have you tried butter? I've added both Kerrygold salted and unsalted to coffee, spun it in a blender and it comes out with a thick crema. It's actually pretty good.

 

[Tom]

Not from Peat, but Reams (RBTI) said that being in an overly alkaline state (as measured by UpH, corresponding to intracellular fluid pH) tended to go with slowed bowel transit, while overly acid tended more to diarrhea. I would be cautious about supplementing several teaspoons of alkalinising baking soda without first establishing that one is not already in an overly alkaline state. A couple of people here have got themselves into milk-alkali syndrome trouble, and IIRC part of the problem was overly aggressive baking soda use. If UpH is consistently above 7, Reams would probably suggest supplementing vitamin C and/or eating more acidifying foods. I know Peat has concerns about vit-C usually being produced in ways that lead to it being likely to be contaminated. I think Reams also counted bread, pasta and cheese amongst foods likely to clog/slow the system.

Also, reduced breathing exercises and I guess bag-breathing can sometimes help relieve constipation quite quickly by restoring blood flow and oxygen supply to the digestive system if it has been lacking.

What dosage of sodium bicarbonate was associated with milk alkali syndrome? Would you think even 1/2-1 tsp daily as maintenance dosage (as I suggested) is too much? Could it be a difference taking it with meals spread out throughout the day versus taking one single dosage alone on empty stomach?

There´s a lot of confusion about the acid/base balance; what many think is "acid" is sometimes "base" etc. Ray Peat clarifies many of these things in the Herb Doctors episode "Acidity X Alkalinity" found here: http://www.toxinless.com/peat/marshmallow

I´m wondering if the "milk alkali syndrome" really can occur from eating natural foods. Maybe it is chiefly the sodium bicarbonate (an unnatural substance after all) that is the problem. Thinking of fruitarians that seems to be if not healthy at least not dangerously unhealthy, or one study suggesting wild gorillas could obtain 70% of energy from leafy greens plus lots of other stuff like barks etc, and maybe obtain 50 grams or more of potassium per 2000 kcal, but of course not a lot of sodium. Or people from Kitava eating 70% of energy as high potassium carb foods (much starches), but little protein and sodium.

It may also be a difference between eating foods with the soluble fibers intact versus the juices given that the fermentative effect on the soluble fibers could produce many (acidic) organic acids.

Is there similar reports from the Gerson´s protocol which would be extremely alkaline and also use (as I´ve understood it) sodium bicarbonate as part of the regimen?

 

[tara]

@ Tom,
I can't say I know the answers. I thought you were suggesting a few tsps baking soda per day, rather than just 1/2-1 tsp. But even so, if there are indications that a person may already be running too alkaline, which I think Reams would consider likely for people with chronic severe constipation, this might be reason for caution. If someone really is running too alkaline, adding baking soda is likely to make the situation worse. I agree that there is confusion about the effects of different foods on alkalinity, and that various lists don't all agree about them. There is confusion and forgetfulness in my mind about it too. I don't think you can just know from what a person is currently eating what their pH will be, either. It involves buffers and ongoing processes and health state etc. It's not just what you eat that affects pH balance - eg endogenous cellular CO2 and production also acidifies the system.

What I am fairly confident about is that it is not very hard to test UpH a few times (not first thing in the morning, not straight after food), and that this can give a pretty good idea of whether a person is overall running too acid, too alkaline, or about right (approx 6.3 - 6.7 acc. Peat, 6.2-6.8 - optimally 6.4 according to Reams). I'm advising caution, not necessarily avoidance. If you are running acid - pH <6.3ish - baking soda might be helpful. If it's averaging over 6.8 i'd be avoiding it.

Here are a couple of previous threads on milk-alkali syndrome:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2701&hilit=milk+alkali
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3436&hilit=milk+alkali
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2432&p=29036&hilit=milk+alkali#p29036
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1167&hilit=milk+alkali

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the reply, Tara.

I was suggesting 1/2-1 tsp sodium bicarbonate twice daily for a few days followed by 1/2-1 tsp daily as maintenance dosage, this is probably comparable or less than the amount found in many of the sodium bicarbonate based acid neutralizers sold over the counter (they are typically a mixture of citric acid and sodium bicarbonate, sold in small sachets).

I actually did some experimentation with sodium bicarbonate (probably average 2 tsp daily) many years ago, but this was along with large amounts of green juices, chlorella etc, and it is hard to say what caused what effect. I did notice after a few months that the "acidic" foods (at least measured by the potential renal acid load system) like brown rice, egg yolks, and cheese tasted increasingly better (I found previously that brown rice tasted particularly disagreeable but now it was something I really craved), while potatoes tasted bad and white rice and egg whites tasted like nothing. Also I could ingest enormous quantities of garlic (like 10 cloves of garlic squeezed into a bowl of soup) without problems, and also a lot of vinegar. I also noticed my skin had become paler. Clearly I overdid it and it was a rather stupid experiment that went on for too long, but the taste mechanism at least gave an indication of this, so it´s important to follow that (unless my symptoms was related to something else like an infection etc).

I am unsure about the UpH testing given that it can fluctuatate substantially throughout the day depending on what one last ate. Not sure if similar results would be produced if the sodium bicarbonate was just divided throughout the day and consumed with meals (as I think is recommended to reduce potential problems). Salivary pH may be a better indicator.

 

[tara]

There is a little discussion on the RBTI thread. But I agree that a single reading would not be conclusive, and it would better to get quite a few. A 24 hour sample would probably be better still. Not sure that saliva would be more reliable. I think it may lag quite a bit - eg by days, but not sure about this. Again, I guess several samples over several days would probably be better The ideal SpH range according to Reams would be the same as for UpH.

Interesting and reassuring that your tastes lead you to suitable foods and vinegar. I've never been keen on much vinegar, and i think i've tended to be more acid for quite a few years.

 

[tara]

Wouldn't sodium bicarb consumed with meals risk messing with digestion by unduly counteracting stomach acid?

 

[Amazoniac]

Wouldn't sodium bicarb consumed with meals risk messing with digestion by unduly counteracting stomach acid?

I wouldn't risk..

 

[Tom]

Wouldn't sodium bicarb consumed with meals risk messing with digestion by unduly counteracting stomach acid?

I may certainly be wrong, but in small quantities I don´t think it would have much effect given that stomach acid is so extremely acidic, suggested pH between 1.5 to 3.5, so usually much more acidic that vinegar, and more than one litre is secreted per day. The sodium bicarbonate mixture with citric or other acid in a glass of water is usually pH neutral, and also I think the minerals in fruits and vegetables are often found in the carbonate form, and yes sometimes there´s advice to use calcium citrate instead of calcium carbonate for those with too little stomach acid, so maybe it will have an effect. But I would think as with most "supplements", taking it with a meal reduces problems. In the end the real issue I think is with the kidneys where eventually all the macro minerals end up and have to be dealt with. If you eat salt, meaning sodium + chloride that would be relatively neutral on the kidneys, but if only sodium (as sodium bicarbonate) without the chloride, that´s a heavy alkaline surplus on the kidneys. But if it is in small quantities with a lot of other minerals I think the chances of problems are greatly reduced. If the diet is high phosphate without much potassium, like cheese, or high phosphate without much calcium (like meats and grains), then it will be even more smooth for the kidneys as the sodium should balance the phosphate.

 

[Tom]

I´ve seen some suggestions now that calcium carbonate supplements should be taken with meals, not on empty stomach, and this would certainly apply to the eggshell calcium also which is almost 100% calcium carbonate. think for the same reason sodium bicarbonate should be taken with meals, that is first dissolved with the citric acid/lemon juice or other acidic mixture then much of it will form (I think) sodium citrate and sodium carbonate, and so it´s more like a sodium supplement. I suspect many of the problems with calcium supplements investigated in recent years is because the supplements were taken on empty stomach, not with food. The bigger and more protein rich the meal, the more acidic is probably the stomach acid. It seems ideal to add the sodium bicarbonate mixture with such meals. On a side note, many insects consumed in primitive societies and likely much during our evolution has calcium carbonate in their shell, so it´s a food with a mixture of protein and calcium (carnivores eating meats and then after the meal chew on the bones is a somewhat similar example).

 

[natedawggh]

My experience with digestion has been pretty consistent with the following ideas:
1) the intestines need something to push on (i.e. "fiber) for regular bowl movements and in order to push out old material
2) we can become dependent on coffee and similar substances for peristalsis and regularity

Not sure where you're getting your information, but none of this is correct.
Your bowels do not "need something to push on." Peristalsis happens voluntarily whether or not your intestines are full. You've even said you ate lots of fiber and it didn't do anything. Well, there's your evidence. Fiber is not necessary nor helpful for bowel movements.

Peristalsis or lack thereof is an issue with sodium and water retention. At the moment you are constipated your bowel tissue is so engorged with water that it cannot contract properly, that is why the addition of salt orally or as an enema often relieves constipation, because the addition of sodium facilitates the electrical impulses that regulate peristalsis as well as aiding in the emptying of excess water in the intestinal tissue.

Coffee also aids in the regulation of cellular water management, and because it helps in bowel movements does not mean you are "dependent on it," any more than you are dependent on sunshine to make vitamin D or aspirin for a headache. If it works, it just works and you're only hurting yourself by refusing to use what is there to help you.

Your diet sounds totally off for having constipation problems anyway, and you're going to continue having these problems if you keep eating that much fiber, and you're going to argue with the people on here giving you advice and yet you're still going to end up having severe conception because of the very thing you refuse to acknowledge, so next time you're uncomfortable try taking some of their advice since you asked for it.

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

Thanks for the scolding. Some people on here do better with more fiber. I think it is worth trying, but I get very little of it because I don't eat much veggies and no gluten.

If someone gets used to bowel movements within less than 20m or so of consuming coffee, then I don't know how that wouldn't be considered a type of dependency (if they do not happen when going off coffee). If x is a required good thing, and y is the cause of x - then y can be considered a dependency, at least until x can be caused without y.

Anyway, I made this thread to learn more about the causes. My observations are that peristalsis works well up to a certain point, and then stops for some reason - perhaps in the large intestine. Would like to rule out fecal impaction, even if minor.