Mass vaccination against Covid-19 might lead to emergence of truly deadly strains

[OccamzRazer]

Most lockdowns didn't happen until after infection had spread significantly. It seems to me that those countries that have had the best success at preventing widespread illness and mortality were ones that managed to control transmission before the horse had bolted, so to speak. Partly luck (eg islands), and partly very effective management. Wuhan managed to stop their epidemic locally after it had got underway by drastic lockdown. (I have not said that's how it should be done everywhere, so don't attribute that to me.)

Even if COVID is as bad or worse as some sources have made it out to be...

Have you ever thought about why more governments haven't used vitamin D, zinc, ivermectin, quinones, aspirin, etc. as "very effective management" ?

In other words, why hasn't a package of these types of supplements been sent out to every household in the USA/EU/XYZ?

Why haven't the 'experts' preached preventative measures? Why has the focus been exclusively on social distancing and vaccines?

I think I know why. It seems like many others here do too.

Maybe you should think about it!

 

[Nemo]

Covid cases and deaths are rising in every country where vaccination has been widespread over the past four months. It doesn't even have to be more deadly strains. We had a study posted here that showed the vax weakens your immune system and makes you more susceptible even to the old Covid strain.

Here's a thread with beautiful charts showing how cases and deaths are rising in step with vax numbers:


View: https://twitter.com/Metabo_PhD/status/1387548104073912324


Age specific death numbers in Israel 1 month after vax:

80+: 220%
70-79: 600%
60-69: 0 deaths pre-vax, 66 deaths post-vax

In country after country (Middle East, South America, Canada, Europe, Asia), just as vaccine doses shoot up, both CV19 cases and deaths rose in tandem. As vaccinations fell, so did Bat Plague deaths.

In India, the graphs of Covid cases, deaths, and share of people receiving their first vaccine dose are virtually indistinguishable. Meanwhile, in neighboring countries where the vax rates are much lower to nonexistent, we see no rise in Covid cases and deaths.

We even see a sharp rise in Covid cases and deaths on islands, like the Isle of Man and Bonaire, which had few to no Covid cases/deaths prior to vaccination starting, but big numbers of both as vaccination began.


View: https://twitter.com/Metabo_PhD/status/1387556575506796548


"There is actually a great deal of evidence, both anecdotal as well as in the published scientific literature, to show that vaccinated people can get Covid 19. Even the CDC has openly admitted this as well."

 

[PxD]

When you need to get supplies, etc. Admit it, Trump ****88 ***t up and just let it rip, all the while grifting your foolish ****. If we'd properly locked down, early (Feb.), and that means EVERYONE, like real patriots, we'd have 80% less deaths. That would have required actual leadership, on a global scale. Know anyone that's died of COVID? I do. Many in fact.

"Trump let it rip"? How did he let it rip, exactly? Saying Trump "let it rip" is like saying FDR sat back and let Hitler rip, and we could have stopped WW2 in its tracks if we'd just acted decisively in 1933. The CDC issued guidance, but individual states/counties/cities were setting and enforcing policy as they saw fit. This isn't the PRC, FedGov can't weld shut doors to apartment buildings and send out cops to beat people for going grocery shopping. As far as I know there are only two countries that literally let it rip: Sweden and Brazil.

All the wailing and gnashing of teeth about inadequate ventilators and beds in NYC turned out to be nonsense, it was never needed. In my city the administration spent $60 million to build a field hospital in a football stadium that saw like half a dozen patients and was then promptly torn down. The US was more than adequately equipped, but sometimes diseases, like wars, just have to run their course.

Like I said, it's "Hair Fuehrer" and screeching about how racist his flight ban on China was and frothing at the mouth at his suggestion to quarantine the NYC area, while simultaneously pounding the table that he didn't order the National Guard into the streets to issue $1000 fines to people for not wearing masks or whatever.

Go to any Covid data tracking site and look at how various countries have made out. In terms of deaths/million the US is in 17th spot. Not great, but plenty of strict lockdown countries doing much worse.

Drill down into the US by state and the top four states by deaths per million account for 1/6th of the deaths and all four are strict lockdown Democrat strongholds.

The five Democrat states where governors ordered elderly infected back into nursing homes make up 1/4 of the death count.

California, strict lockdown rules, one of the youngest states in the US: 1,563 deaths/million as of today.

Florida, no lockdown, no mask mandate for 2 months now, full stadium for the Super Bowl back in February, 2nd oldest state in the Union with ~4.5 million retirees: 1,638 deaths/million as of today.

If lockdowns were effective California should be in vastly better shape than Florida, *especially* given the difference in population age between the two states. Instead there's hardly any difference and they are only two spots apart if ranked by deaths/million.

There is a long list of people that should get more blame for Covid, ahead of DJT. Singling him out for this is ridiculous.

I know a lot of people who got Covid. I don't know a single person who died of Covid. I know of exactly one (1) who went into hospital for it, and he doesn't live in the US. Everyone else I know of recovered on their own, including my 72 year old mother, who lives alone and was struggling with her 3rd bout of shingles when the 'rona got her sick. I had it back in early February and it literally lasted a day and a half. I have strong seasonal allergies and the Covid symptoms were so mild that I mistook them for a bad pollen day initially.

 

[PxD]

My understanding from way back was that this forum was intended for respectful discussion, even when people don't agree about everything.
There didn't use to be a membership requirement that everybody make exactly the same choices about their own health.
Is this still the case?
Would it be possible to have a discussion on that basis?

Most lockdowns didn't happen until after infection had spread significantly. It seems to me that those countries that have had the best success at preventing widespread illness and mortality were ones that managed to control transmission before the horse had bolted, so to speak. Partly luck (eg islands), and partly very effective management. Wuhan managed to stop their epidemic locally after it had got underway by drastic lockdown. (I have not said that's how it should be done everywhere, so don't attribute that to me.)

The US is not seem to disprove the possibility of using a lockdown to control an outbreak. If anything it might illustrate that how lockdowns and related tactics are implemented (by leadership and population) matters.

Isn't this what you would expect if lockdowns are only initiated after community transmission is widespread? It would mean that the only places with lockdowns are the ones with high rates of infection, and in those places, transmission is selectively reduced between households/community, while still happening within households.

One thing to keep in mind when you're looking at the stats is much of the country statistics on Covid are likely to be way off, so drawing conclusions of who did what most effectively is probably useless.

I grew up in Africa and I can tell you that both cases and deaths are almost certainly heavily undercounted there. In rich countries when people die, paperwork gets filed. In Africa most of the population either lives in the countryside with spotty water and electricity, let alone health care, or in urban slums. When people die, the "system" at large often doesn't know. Governments in African countries generally only have a vague idea of who and how many people are in their countries at any given time. Forget about mass testing and counting Covid deaths accurately - I'll bet you my house, mortgage paid off, the true Covid numbers are far higher than what's being reported.

My wife is from a South American country, from a small city of about 60k people. This country is reporting very low infection and death numbers. There have been days where she has personally known of 2-3 deaths in her home city, where the country as a whole officially reported 5 or 6. So, obviously the official numbers are total B.S.

Likewise, China's super impressive Covid handling is hard to believe, given the population density and the fact that it's the origin of the disease and it's been open to the rest of the world since the middle of last year. ChiComs, like all Communists, are never wrong about anything, Comrade! - so wouldn't surprise me if their numbers are vastly higher and the gentle, loving fist of the CCP just sweeps it under the rug.

If you look at a list of countries by death count per million, one interesting thing to note is that almost all of the countries in the bottom 100 lowest deaths are poor with poorly developed infrastructure and health care services, which includes sketchy vital statistics recording.

TL;DR whereas in some places like the US any death involving a Covid-positive is recorded as a Covid death, there are many others that have trouble recording just about any kind of statistics, let alone Covid-related deaths.

 

[PxD]

bull****. Ignorants with chin diapers everywhere. FrEEdUmB! MAskSDoNTwOrK!!

Public health measures are not tyranny. Denial is not a strategy. We obvs have different definitions of "TDS."

…who live in glass houses…The distraction? We're "enemies," while the rich disenfranchise us both.

What did you eat today?

Lockdown and masking/distancing/sanitizing are not even remotely the same thing.

Until 2020 the only places where the term 'lockdown' was used was in prisons. That's very telling. Lockdowns are oppressive, plain and simple.

Doing the Swedish thing where you ask people to mask, distance and wash their hands is a public health measure, not tyranny, but it requires voluntary co-operation.

Much easier to do in a small mostly homogeneous country than in a 330-million strong multicultural empire of a thousand nations.

There's only definition for TDS = obsess about everything he does and says/blame Trump for everything, but especially when it doesn't make sense ;-)

 

[Giraffe]

Doing the Swedish thing where you ask people to mask, distance and wash their hands is a public health measure, not tyranny, but it requires voluntary co-operation.

Much easier to do in a small mostly homogeneous country than in a 330-million strong multicultural empire of a thousand nations.

Why would political borders matter? Each European Union country could ask its citizens to wash their hands and work from home if possible, and the US could do this. What would be different? As long as the people believe that there is a threat they are more than willing to obey. And regarding homogeneity... According to this article one in five Swedes was born in another country.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

@PxD
Thanks for your posts here.

Regarding many countries, probably many of them African and others in the „global south“ where Covid runs it’s course relatively undocumented and „untreated“ by vaccination and testing.

Everybody that falls for the vaccine propaganda should figure that out.
We get bombarded with national „vaccine campaigns“ achieve herd immunity. Everything is globalized but herd immunity is now a a thing within national borders and achieved by vaccines instead of an infection running through a population.

There will always be a SarsCov2-strain somewhere active and also vaccine escape mutations. It’s unbearable what’s going on presently.

 

[tara]

I grew up in Africa and I can tell you that both cases and deaths are almost certainly heavily undercounted there.

I believe you on this.

I think the countries reporting higher proportions of population receiving vaccination doses are probably those where records are a bit more more reliable (though unlikely to be 100% accurate).

Covid cases and deaths are rising in every country where vaccination has been widespread over the past four months.

This is what you would expect for cumulative totals unless you had instant 100% reach and effectiveness, which no-one is claiming. Totals can't go down, only up.
But the daily or weekly rates of newly reported deaths have gone down steeply in the countries with most widespread vaccination rates.

 

[tara]

mask, distance and wash their hands is a public health measure, not tyranny

+1

Note, however, that Sweden has a had a death rate about ten times that of neighbouring Norway, where they implemented much stronger measures to protect people.

Nordics: coronavirus deaths 2023 | Statista

The highest number of confirmed COVID-19 deaths in the Nordic countries as of January 13, 2023, had occurred in Sweden at 22,645.

www.statista.com

 

[Hugh Johnson]

What movie is this?

I'm guessing Utopia UK series.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

One thing to keep in mind when you're looking at the stats is much of the country statistics on Covid are likely to be way off, so drawing conclusions of who did what most effectively is probably useless.

I grew up in Africa and I can tell you that both cases and deaths are almost certainly heavily undercounted there. In rich countries when people die, paperwork gets filed. In Africa most of the population either lives in the countryside with spotty water and electricity, let alone health care, or in urban slums. When people die, the "system" at large often doesn't know. Governments in African countries generally only have a vague idea of who and how many people are in their countries at any given time. Forget about mass testing and counting Covid deaths accurately - I'll bet you my house, mortgage paid off, the true Covid numbers are far higher than what's being reported.

My wife is from a South American country, from a small city of about 60k people. This country is reporting very low infection and death numbers. There have been days where she has personally known of 2-3 deaths in her home city, where the country as a whole officially reported 5 or 6. So, obviously the official numbers are total B.S.

Likewise, China's super impressive Covid handling is hard to believe, given the population density and the fact that it's the origin of the disease and it's been open to the rest of the world since the middle of last year. ChiComs, like all Communists, are never wrong about anything, Comrade! - so wouldn't surprise me if their numbers are vastly higher and the gentle, loving fist of the CCP just sweeps it under the rug.

If you look at a list of countries by death count per million, one interesting thing to note is that almost all of the countries in the bottom 100 lowest deaths are poor with poorly developed infrastructure and health care services, which includes sketchy vital statistics recording.

TL;DR whereas in some places like the US any death involving a Covid-positive is recorded as a Covid death, there are many others that have trouble recording just about any kind of statistics, let alone Covid-related deaths.

Let's just stick to Europe then and ignore Guardian lies about India. Nothing happened in 2020 in Europe. Total mortality was normal.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

+1

Note, however, that Sweden has a had a death rate about ten times that of neighbouring Norway, where they implemented much stronger measures to protect people.

Nordics: coronavirus deaths 2023 | Statista

The highest number of confirmed COVID-19 deaths in the Nordic countries as of January 13, 2023, had occurred in Sweden at 22,645.

www.statista.com

That only says they counted it differently. Sweden had completely normal total mortality, as we have pointed out to you countless times. Which is not surprising because it's a common cold no different than previous ones.

 

[tara]

That only says they counted it differently. Sweden had completely normal total mortality, as we have pointed out to you countless times. Which is not surprising because it's a common cold no different than previous ones.

When I look at the graph of excess mortality for Sweden (Our World in Data), I see that excess mortality (that is, death rate higher than the average over the previous few years), is significantly up for most periods from around the end of March 2020 (when the epidemic got well underway there) till around early Feb 2021 (by which time they had begun vaccinating the most vulnerable people and those most likely to spread the infection to them). There are some periods below the line, but the area above the line is significantly larger than the area below the line. The evidence I'm looking at seems reasonably clear.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

When I look at the graph of excess mortality for Sweden (Our World in Data), I see that excess mortality (that is, death rate higher than the average over the previous few years), is significantly up for most periods from around the end of March 2020 (when the epidemic got well underway there) till around early Feb 2021 (by which time they had begun vaccinating the most vulnerable people and those most likely to spread the infection to them). There are some periods below the line, but the area above the line is significantly larger than the area below the line. The evidence I'm looking at seems reasonably clear.

Death rate 2018 and before: 0.90 or above
Death rate 2019: 0,86
Death rate 2020: 0,94

Not to mention before 2007 it had always been above 1,00. 2019-2020 literally average to 0,90, so if you use that arbitrary time period to smooth out random variance, instead of the shorter arbitrary time period of a single calendar year, 2019-2020 has been the lowest mortality period in the Swedish history.

Even if 2020 wasn't just catching up the anomalously low mortality of 2019, 0,94 mortality is so low, lower than every year before 2013, that there clearly is nothing to worry about.

You keep making these vague statements, and quoting bad statistics. Repeatedly. Honestly what is going on with you?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Death rate 2018 and before: 0.90 or above
Death rate 2019: 0,86
Death rate 2020: 0,94

"thE DEatH ratE wOuld be Even HIghER IF We Did nOThiNG" -NPC

 

[tara]

... instead of the shorter arbitrary time period of a single calendar year ...

I made statements based on a specific graph.
The graph I referred to doesn't compare the COVID-19 period with a single calendar year, but to an average over several years.
It appears to show increased mortality over the COVID period compared with the previous few years. This is what I claimed. Did you look at it?
I'm not sure why you are reacting so emotionally to me referring to this evidence, even if you feel that comparing with a different set of years would be more relevant.
It does seem that the waves of covid mortality were large enough in Sweden to overwhelm the recent trend towards reduced mortality. This is not the only relevant data. There are also the reports of relevant people experiencing and observing the effects of the epidemic there (as elsewhere).

There are other countries where the excess mortality is higher and clearer than Sweden - if you look at the same graph, both the US and Sweden at times approached but didn't quite reach 50% excess mortality (compared with the recent average, using the methodology described). Whereas some countries (eg Italy, Brazil, Russia) went over 50% excess mortality, and some (eg Mexico, UK) more than doubled their recent average mortality rates at times (ie excess mortality >100%).

AFAIK, Our World in Data is a reasonable source for stats at the scale they present, especially if you take into account the limitations they describe.

If you choose to look at a different set of genuine stats, perhaps you have reason to consider them more relevant than the set Our World in Data considered worth presenting, and maybe you come to different conclusions. Maybe if you 'point it out' to me a few more times I'll see the error of my ways.

There seem to be a range of attitudes in Sweden to their strategy - some in favour, some opposed.
I think it's an unfounded stretch to claim this anywhere, but clearly in Sweden the excess mortality is not the result of severe restrictive lockdowns etc.

I think what I started out with, was the idea that people should not be considered insane or malign etc if they make different personal choices about whether get vaccinated. Or if they respectfully discuss relevant evidence.

Note that:
- COVID-19 seems to be mild for for many people, through to severe or deadly for a minority. Because it is so infectious, that minority has been a large number of people.
- the ongoing effects of COVID seem to be a serious problem for a significant number of people.
- So far, the mortality rate for COVID-19 seems to be much higher than the mortality rate for the vaccines under discussion.
- my views are quite mild.

I have not said (these are positions I do not hold, most of them explicitly):
- everyone must get vaccinated
- anyone who does/doesn't want to get vaccinated is crazy or evil
- I have or will get vaccinated
- the vaccines are all completely safe
- the vaccines are on balance safer than non-vaccination for everyone
- there is no chance that there will be some ongoing negative side-effects from the vaccines
- every country should be implementing long hard lockdowns immediately; then and only then will the epidemic be ended
- mask-wearing, hand-washing etc provide complete protection
- all pharmaceutical companies have nothing but our best interests at heart at all times
- all the world's governments are acting entirely in the best interests of their populations
- I get all (or much) of my news from MSM

I seem to get a lot of posts directed at me as though I have expressed these views.

I find this frustrating, just as I find it frustrating when Peat and others have their views misrepresented.

I would like to see respectful discussion resume.

 

[OccamzRazer]

I think what I started out with, was the idea that people should not be considered insane or malign etc if they make different personal choices about whether get vaccinated. Or if they respectfully discuss relevant evidence.

Here's what Dr. Peat says about this particular vaccine, just FYI:

"No sane person would consider doing it, if they understood how our cells respond to alien nucleic acids."

 

[PxD]

Why would political borders matter? Each European Union country could ask its citizens to wash their hands and work from home if possible, and the US could do this. What would be different? As long as the people believe that there is a threat they are more than willing to obey. And regarding homogeneity... According to this article one in five Swedes was born in another country.

Borders matter for two reasons. The first is that they tend to corral a people or peoples with similar traits and culture, so in practical terms, Swedish borders contain mostly Swedes behaving and living in typically Swedish ways, as opposed to say, Italians. Confronted with a pandemic challenge they will react in certain ways that are determined by culture and lifestyle unique to them (e.g. living single in apartments vs living in multigenerational homes). The more homogeneous the culture, the more likely you'll get the same predictable public response across the whole country.

In contrast, the US has states that are culturally and ethnically like different countries when compared to each other. The only things that for example Texans and New Yorkers have in common is they speak English, although even that could be debated. The public and political responses to COVID in those two states were like night and day.

The other lesser reason is that borders are lines across which movement can be shut, if the given governments choose to do so, in a pandemic situation, thus slowing or stopping movement of people which in turn feeds back into point #1 above.

 

[Giraffe]

Borders matter for two reasons. The first is that they tend to corral a people or peoples with similar traits and culture, so in practical terms, Swedish borders contain mostly Swedes behaving and living in typically Swedish ways, as opposed to say, Italians. Confronted with a pandemic challenge they will react in certain ways that are determined by culture and lifestyle unique to them (e.g. living single in apartments vs living in multigenerational homes). The more homogeneous the culture, the more likely you'll get the same predictable public response across the whole country.

In contrast, the US has states that are culturally and ethnically like different countries when compared to each other. The only things that for example Texans and New Yorkers have in common is they speak English, although even that could be debated. The public and political responses to COVID in those two states were like night and day.

The other lesser reason is that borders are lines across which movement can be shut, if the given governments choose to do so, in a pandemic situation, thus slowing or stopping movement of people which in turn feeds back into point #1 above.

Sweden has as high a percentage of migrants as the United States. The country is not as homogenous as you think. I will link another article below.

When you say that the responses to covid were different in Texas and New York, this reflects that the politicians reacted differently. This is nothing to do with culture, but political decisions.

As to restriction of movements... We do not have borders within Germany, but travel between Bundesländer (states) has been severely restricted several times in the past year, and it is now. You want to toboggan? No, not with this license plate of yours. You want to live in your house which you bought 20 years ago and where you spent every summer since? Forget it, our registers say that it is your second home. Sad reality in Germany. People in the former GDR have never been that restricted.

The Integration of Refugees into the Swedish Labour Market: Policies and Outcomes

Sweden has a long tradition of receiving generous numbers of refugees and asylum seekers. In 2015, Sweden received approximately 163,000…

medium.com

 

[Nemo]

My understanding from way back was that this forum was intended for respectful discussion, even when people don't agree about everything.

My impression is you use manners as an excuse to try to keep everyone from pointing out you are always wrong.