Vaccines cause more dangerous strains to evolve and shed (from vaccinated hosts)

[ecstatichamster]

This emerges from Dr. Peat, Danny and Georgy, when Dr. Peat was asked a question and quoted a researcher and paper about chickens showing more pathogenic strains evolve and are shed from vaccinated hosts.

Here is the author summary with some additions of mine:

There is a theoretical expectation that some types of vaccines could prompt the evolution of more virulent (“hotter”) pathogens.

This idea follows from the notion that natural selection removes pathogen strains that are so “hot” that they kill their hosts and, therefore, themselves. Vaccines that let the hosts survive but do not prevent the spread of the pathogen relax this selection, allowing the evolution of hotter pathogens to occur.

This type of vaccine is often called a leaky vaccine.

When vaccines prevent transmission, as is the case for nearly all vaccines used in humans, this type of evolution towards increased virulence is blocked.

But when vaccines leak, allowing at least some pathogen transmission, they could create the ecological conditions that would allow hot strains to emerge and persist. This theory proved highly controversial when it was first proposed over a decade ago, but here we report experiments with Marek’s disease virus in poultry that show that modern commercial leaky vaccines can have precisely this effect: they allow the onward transmission of strains otherwise too lethal to persist. Thus, the use of leaky vaccines can facilitate the evolution of pathogen strains that put unvaccinated hosts at greater risk of severe disease. The future challenge is to identify whether there are other types of vaccines used in animals and humans that might also generate these evolutionary risks.

--

I think that the so-called Covid vaccine are extremely leaky -- they leak via shed viruses and the vehicle that generates viral proteins. So this is probably why

1. it's a really bad idea to create a "vaccine" for something like Covid, especially early in the "pandemic"

2. doing so has resulted in much more dangerous strains

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

A study using Marek's disease virus in poultry shows that by reducing natural selection against highly virulent strains, imperfect vaccination enables the spread of viral strains that would otherwise be too lethal to persist.

journals.plos.org

Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. Here we show experimentally that immunization of chickens against Marek's disease virus enhances the fitness of more virulent strains, making it possible for hyperpathogenic strains to transmit. Immunity elicited by direct vaccination or by maternal vaccination prolongs host survival but does not prevent infection, viral replication or transmission, thus extending the infectious periods of strains otherwise too lethal to persist. Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts.

 

[ecstatichamster]

This article is helpful

Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve | Quanta Magazine

Just as antibiotics have bred resistance in bacteria, vaccines can potentially lose their effectiveness over diseases they controlled. Researchers are working to head off the evolution of new threats.

www.quantamagazine.org

reaearchers are scared of working in this field not for the reason given but I think for fear they will be marked with the career-ending anti vax label


But the most crucial need right now is for vaccine scientists to recognize the relevance of evolutionary biology to their field. Last month, when more than 1,000 vaccine scientists gathered in Washington, D.C., at the World Vaccine Congress, the issue of vaccine-induced evolution was not the focus of any scientific sessions. Part of the problem, Read says, is that researchers are afraid: They’re nervous to talk about and call attention to potential evolutionary effects because they fear that doing so might fuel more fear and distrust of vaccines by the public — even though the goal is, of course, to ensure long-term vaccine success. Still, he and Kennedy feel researchers are starting to recognize the need to include evolution in the conversation. “I think the scientific community is becoming increasingly aware that vaccine resistance is a real risk,” Kennedy said.

 

[Missenger]

Read says, is that researchers are afraid: They’re nervous to talk about and call attention to potential evolutionary effects because they fear that doing so might fuel more fear and distrust of vaccines by the public

Sounds more like collecting a paycheck while fearing for themselves moreso than anything else.

 

[Giraffe]

Read says, is that researchers are afraid: They’re nervous to talk about and call attention to potential evolutionary effects because they fear that doing so might fuel more fear and distrust of vaccines by the public

For years or decades they have been trying to morally blackmail us.

Version 1:
'It's selfish to think that you do not need the vaccine because you are healthy and you will manage an infection just fine. Think of those that are too weak to get vaccinated. You must get vaccinated in order to protect the weak.'

Version 2:
'The selfish anti-vaxxers enjoy herd immunity thanks to those who get vaccinated.'

Now this bird study showed that following infection with deadly strains the vaccinated birds became superspreaders while unvaccinated birds got killed before they could start to shed the virus. The study is shaking the herd immunity by vaccine narrative quite a bit.

 

[Giraffe]

I think that the so-called Covid vaccine are extremely leaky -- they leak via shed viruses and the vehicle that generates viral proteins. So this is probably why

1. it's a really bad idea to create a "vaccine" for something like Covid, especially early in the "pandemic"

2. doing so has resulted in much more dangerous strains

I suspect that the vaccines do not prevent infections at all. The articles by Anthony Colpo that have been linked in the forum by @tankasnowgod and @Tim Lundeen explain how the vaccine trials look very fraudulent. Then the side effects of the vaccines are very similar to the symptoms of very serious cases of coronavirus infections.

I see nothing really that suggests that there are more dangerous strains out there. They try to obfuscate that the vaccines do harm but no good, and they are trying to make us accept lockdowns forever.

 

[Peatness]

I just know I won't be dating anyone who has taken the covid injection. ?

 

[Inaut]

Jim Stone is pumping the prion/vaccine/mad cow disease connection pretty hard. He thinks there's going to be a massive die off in 6-12 months. Twilight zone. All this information is starting to way me down....

 

[charlie]

Jim Stone is pumping the prion/vaccine/mad cow disease connection pretty hard. He thinks there's going to be a massive die off in 6-12 months. Twilight zone. All this information is starting to way me down....

Apparently General Flynn said the same thing(prions in vaccine) in this interview below. I am listening to it now and have not yet heard that part.

 

[Inaut]

weaponizing the flu. this is grim....

 

[Missenger]

Sounds like people are thinking about prions because of the one scientist that died randomly from prion disease working on one of the vaccines.

 

[Giraffe]

I am going to reply in this thread to not further derail the original one.

So let's say the spike proteins get produced in your body forever and actually create antibodies. That's the Humanity Doomsday scenario.

That's where you get Antibody-Dependent Enhancement (ADE) and possible breeding of Really Bad Death Virus like Marek's in chickens. And this is where you get the vax-created antibodies attacking your organs, shortening your life to a few miserable remaining years.

Now you take Ivermectin.

Right away you don't have vax-created antibodies attacking your organs, because you don't have spike proteins attached to ACE2 in your organs. So no shortening of life to a few miserable remaining years.

Let me go look something up about ADE and come back.

If I understand it right Ray Peat thinks that antibodies are a sign of some sort of injury. Their presence shows that there is an injury and that the body takes care of it. The antibodies are helping to clean up. They are not attacking the body.

See this interview:

Hashimoto’s, Antibodies, Temperature and Pulse KMUD, 2013

Transcribed by Burtlancast. Download the MP3: http://uploadingit.com/file/view/bsdxy3 ... ritalk.mp3

raypeatforum.com

 

[Nemo]

I am going to reply in this thread to not further derail the original one.



If I understand it right Ray Peat thinks that antibodies are a sign of some sort of injury. Their presence shows that there is an injury and that the body takes care of it. The antibodies are helping to clean up. They are not attacking the body.

See this interview:

Hashimoto’s, Antibodies, Temperature and Pulse KMUD, 2013

Transcribed by Burtlancast. Download the MP3: http://uploadingit.com/file/view/bsdxy3 ... ritalk.mp3

raypeatforum.com

Vax-created antibodies are expected to attack the body. They're expected to attack the body because the spike protein is very similar to a huge number of endogenous proteins and because your organs are expected to contain masses of spike proteins. The antibodies are actually expected to facilitate entry of wild Covid into your cells down the road to give you Death Covid.

Every mRNA vax for a coronavirus has created antibodies that killed the animals in the studies via autoimmune attacks upon exposure to the virus in the wild.

 

[Giraffe]

Vax-created antibodies are expected to attack the body. They're expected to attack the body because the spike protein is very similar to a huge number of endogenous proteins and because your organs are expected to contain masses of spike proteins. The antibodies are actually expected to facilitate entry of wild Covid into your cells down the road to give you Death Covid.

Every mRNA vax for a coronavirus has created antibodies that killed the animals in the studies via autoimmune attacks upon exposure to the virus in the wild.

I agree that vaccines against coronaviruses have been shown to lead to worse outcome upon exposure to the wild virus, but I prefer the term 'pathogenic priming'. I am not sure, they really know what is causing this.

I think that this antibody centered view of the immune system is convenient for the vaccine industry. They show that the concoction they inject is causing antibodies to arise, and they conclude that the vaccine is 'working'. That's what they need the adjuvants for: to create injury.

Mike Yeadon said in an interview that antibodies play only a minor role when dealing with viral infections if any at all.

Confirmed here:

Human genetic and pharmacological evidence supports the possibility of control of SARS-CoV-2 in the absence of neutralizing antibodies. Two unrelated adults in Italy with agammaglobulinemia and no circulating B cells developed COVID-19 and fully recovered from infection (Soresina et al., 2020), suggesting that antibodies can be dispensable for protective immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in otherwise healthy adults. Many people have pharmaceutical depletion of B cells for unrelated conditions. Three studies, with a total of 31 COVID-19 cases, of subjects on B cell depletion therapy reported all COVID-19 cases resolved without intensive care (Montero-Escribano et al., 2020; Novi et al., 2020; Safavi et al., 2020). One report presented two fatal cases of COVID-19 in patients >65 years of age on B cell depletion therapy and other immunosuppressive drugs (Tepasse et al., 2020). However, no antigen-specific T or neutralizing antibody data are available from any of those reports. Separately, there are multiple reports of healthy individuals successfully controlling a SARS-CoV-2 infection with little to no neutralizing (or RBD IgG) antibodies detectable post-infection, while having significant SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell memory (Rydyznski Moderbacher et al., 2020; Nelde et al., 2021; Schulien et al., 2020; Sekine et al., 2020). Those observations imply the ability to control COVID-19 without substantial contribution from neutralizing antibodies, as long as a strong T cell response is present. Thus, with the currently available data, it is plausible that SARS-CoV-2 infection may be controlled by a combination of CD4+ and CD8+ T cells without neutralizing antibodies. Nevertheless, in aggregate the data support a model wherein a coordinated, early response by all three branches of adaptive immunity is likely to be most successful at controlling SARS-CoV-2 infection and limiting COVID-19 severity. More data are required to directly test these models thoroughly.

And here about ADE:

Regarding antibodies as the cause of immunopathogenesis, this notion primarily derives from some SARS animal model vaccine studies and an understanding of dengue. Although the term antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) of infection is frequently used, ADE was not observed in SARS or MERS, and the instances of antibody-associated disease pathology with certain SARS immunizations were not FcR-dependent and appear more likely to be immune complex driven inflammation (Sariol and Perlman, 2020). ADE is rarely observed for viral infections in vivo.

Adaptive immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19

 

[Nemo]

I agree that vaccines against coronaviruses have been shown to lead to worse outcome upon exposure to the wild virus, but I prefer the term 'pathogenic priming'. I am not sure, they really know what is causing this.

I think you're making great points.

I agree with you and Yeadon about antibodies being a vaccine industry fetish.

One thing I want to look at more closely is something that was in that review of studies about the vaxxes reducing your innate immune system function in favor of these potentially dangerous antibodies. I went looking for studies to confirm or dispute this, and so far I've only found studies that seemed to confirm it.

Here's a report on one:

Research suggests Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine reprograms innate immune responses

Researchers in The Netherlands have warned that Pfizer-BioNTech’s coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccine induces complex reprogramming of innate immune responses that should be considered in the development and use of mRNA-based vaccines.

www.news-medical.net

"However, they also showed that the vaccine altered the production of inflammatory cytokines by innate immune cells following stimulation with both specific (SARS-CoV-2) and non-specific (viral, fungal and bacterial) stimuli.

"Following vaccination, innate immune cells had a reduced response to toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4), TLR7 and TLR8 – all ligands that play an important role in the immune response to viral infection."

So, if this looks like a sound study, how significant is this reduced response? How much are they damaging you to get those antibodies?

And I'm still not convinced that they're actually producing antibodies. I haven't found anybody putting actual hard numbers out there, just these bland assurances that Big Pharma's drug works.

 

[Lizb]

Vax-created antibodies are expected to attack the body. They're expected to attack the body because the spike protein is very similar to a huge number of endogenous proteins and because your organs are expected to contain masses of spike proteins. The antibodies are actually expected to facilitate entry of wild Covid into your cells down the road to give you Death Covid.

Every mRNA vax for a coronavirus has created antibodies that killed the animals in the studies via autoimmune attacks upon exposure to the virus in the wild.

I'm really keen to read the ferret study where they died after exposure to the wild virus. I don't suppose you have it do you?

 

[Giraffe]

And I'm still not convinced that they're actually producing antibodies. I haven't found anybody putting actual hard numbers out there, just these bland assurances that Big Pharma's drug works.

Not sure that I understand what you mean. Don't have all vaccine studies pictures with antibody data? And I remember that a German cell biologist criticized that the vaccine makers have not checked if the second shot was really having an impact on antibody response.

Here are the first two papers I could find:

BioNTech/Pfizer - EMA - Assessment Report
AstraZeneca - The Lancet - Phase 1/2 trial

 

[Nemo]

I'm really keen to read the ferret study where they died after exposure to the wild virus. I don't suppose you have it do you?

LizB, that's one of my targets for today. That and the cat study. I'll post the links if I can find them.

 

[Peatness]

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[Dr. B]

Vax-created antibodies are expected to attack the body. They're expected to attack the body because the spike protein is very similar to a huge number of endogenous proteins and because your organs are expected to contain masses of spike proteins. The antibodies are actually expected to facilitate entry of wild Covid into your cells down the road to give you Death Covid.

Every mRNA vax for a coronavirus has created antibodies that killed the animals in the studies via autoimmune attacks upon exposure to the virus in the wild.

what factors do you think are responsible for certain supplements causing increase in antibodies? like both iodine and ashwagandha supplements have been linked to autoimmune thyroid (and other organ) antibodies, so what do you think these things could be doing. I read a random article saying something about iodine increasing peroxide production in the body, maybe hydrogen peroxide, which physically damages the organs and glands?

I am going to reply in this thread to not further derail the original one.



If I understand it right Ray Peat thinks that antibodies are a sign of some sort of injury. Their presence shows that there is an injury and that the body takes care of it. The antibodies are helping to clean up. They are not attacking the body.

See this interview:

Hashimoto’s, Antibodies, Temperature and Pulse KMUD, 2013

Transcribed by Burtlancast. Download the MP3: http://uploadingit.com/file/view/bsdxy3 ... ritalk.mp3

raypeatforum.com

how is autoimmunity healed? it seems some people have incurable autoimmune diseases, hair loss etc? and apparently theres many kinds of supplements, seemingly any of these immune booster supplements can somehow cause organ and gland damage. I think Ray even said that even zinc and vitamin A supplementation can cause immune dysfunction so he doesnt recommend supplements of them. I wonder do the internal organs and glands heal the same way our exterior skin does, or do they heal faster since they are internal and maybe have more access to carbon dioxide? there has to be something more to healing autoimmunity besides perfect nutrition, avoiding vaccines, estrogens, toxic food/water etc?

 

[Giraffe]

how is autoimmunity healed? it seems some people have incurable autoimmune diseases, hair loss etc? and apparently theres many kinds of supplements, seemingly any of these immune booster supplements can somehow cause organ and gland damage. I think Ray even said that even zinc and vitamin A supplementation can cause immune dysfunction so he doesnt recommend supplements of them. I wonder do the internal organs and glands heal the same way our exterior skin does, or do they heal faster since they are internal and maybe have more access to carbon dioxide? there has to be something more to healing autoimmunity besides perfect nutrition, avoiding vaccines, estrogens, toxic food/water etc?

Have you tried to search the forum? Below two interview transcripts that might answer some of your questions.

A Bioenergetic View Of Autoimmunity [Generative Energy #12]

A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity [Generative Energy #12] #12: A Bioenergetic View of Autoimmunity 01:16 - Danny’s introduction to autoimmune conditions 02:07 - Autoimmunity and cancer — two peas in a pod 02:58 - Jamie Cunliffe (link: home_page) 03:12 - The mainstream view of autoimmunity...

raypeatforum.com

Politics & Science: Autoimmune Diseases And Movement Disorders (2012)

Raymond Peat, Ph.D. AUTOIMMUNE DISEASES AND MOVEMENT DISORDERS Politics & Science with John Barkhausen JB - John Barkhausen RP - Ray Peat JB: Today we're going to talk about some autoimmune diseases and some movement disorder dysfunctions. I’m intrigued by them, not only because I have...

raypeatforum.com

Or maybe start a thread in the Ask for help or advice section.