Linus Pauling May Have Been Vindicated - Vitamin C May Treat Cancer

[haidut]

@haidut it's not just the contamination Ray seems to talk about, but the chemical reaction process? You'd have to source the Cevitamic acid not ascorbic acid, but Ray seems to suggest no one does the original method.

What other than contamination could be the issue? Peat's quotes from earlier in the thread talks about contamination only. What does the flawed manufacturing process do other than add contamination? Does it change the molecule somehow?
"...The same people who reacted to it often reacted similarly to riboflavin and rutin, which were also made from cornstarch by oxidation. I ascribed the reaction to some industrial contaminant that they had in common, possibly the heavy metals introduced with the sulfuric acid. The heavy metal contamination of synthetic ascorbate is so great that one 500 mg tablet dissolved in a liter of water produces free radicals at a rate that would require a killing dose of x-rays to equal. The only clean and safe vitamin C now available is that in fresh fruits, meats, etc. The commercial stuff is seriously dangerous."

 

[burtlancast]

Sorry this is the correct one.

Interesting, thanks.

I wonder if the plant material is able to quench the free radicals created by the contaminated Vit c, which gets transformed into dehydroascorbic acid in the process described by the gentleman.

 

[Mountain]

Any idea how Szent-gyorgyi was able to isolate so much of the pure vitamin from peppers? I had a cursory look around for the method but couldn't find much.

 

[burtlancast]

The fruit with the most Vitamin C content is the KAKADU PLUM.
Kakadu Plum -- Australia's Native Vitamin C Bomb Everyone Wants A Piece Of

"Terminalia ferdinandiana, also called the gubinge, billygoat plum, Kakadu plum or murunga, is a flowering plant in the family Combretaceae, native to Australia, widespread throughout the tropical woodlands from northwestern Australia to eastern Arnhem Land. It has a high concentration of vitamin C in its fruit: recorded concentrations of 2300–3150 mg/100 g wet weight[1] and occasionally as high as 5300 mg/100 g,[2] compared with 50 mg/100 g for oranges, ranks among the highest known of any natural source."
Terminalia ferdinandiana - Wikipedia

We could use it for preparing dyhydroascorbic acid the way the gentleman in the video above explained...
Vit C without the heavy metals...

 

[Travis]

Jesus. Linus Pauling would have jizzed his pants over that fruit's ascorbate levels!

 

[Mito]

He also says that dehydroascorbic acid, the oxidized form of Vitamin C, is prevalent in many different foods especially meat and dairy but is not measured or counted as Vitamin C because of it form. Ray says that most people are getting enough Vitamin C because of this.

We could use it for preparing deyhydroascorbic acid the way the gentleman in the video above explained...
Vit C without the heavy metals...

But is dehydroascorbic acid as beneficial as other forms of Vitamin C (such as l-ascorbate or ascorbic acid) since it can be converted by irreversible hydrolysis to 2,3-diketogulonic acid?

Chris Masterjohn explains that dehydroascorbic acid is vulnerable to irreversible loss due to hydrolytic ring rupture before the body has a chance to recycle it back to ascorbic acid.

View attachment 4537

"dehydroascorbic acid is vulnerable to hydrolytic ring rupture, which means that, hydro = water; lytic = breaks a part, the ring. So if you look at dehydroascorbate on the top, you see this bond between the top O and this larger structure on the side that bond is what can get ruptured apart. I put the water in red to make it easier to see what is happening. Water is an H and an OH, H2O. The H comes over here and the OH comes over here and in the process breaks apart that ring."

View attachment 4536

"Once dehydroscorbic acid undergoes hydrolytic ring rupture, you can never get it back to any of the other forms; that’s irreversible loss."

"So, if we are thinking back about foods, then we want to do is prevent the formation of dehydroascorbate, because if we do that, then we are never going to have the irreversible destruction of vitamin C in the solution."

Source of quotes located here:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/16/introducing-masterclass-with-masterjohn/

 

[Travis]

Well, dehydroascorbic acid is found in fruits and vegetables as well.

There are two methods commonly used to determine the vitamin C content:

Dye titration: this measures ascorbic acid only

Fluorometry: determines ascorbic acid, ascorbate, and dehydroascorbic acid. First, all forms are oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid. Then, ortho-phenylenediamine reacts with dehydroascorbic acid as seen here:

This compound, in the words of Malaysian chemists:

Ascorbic acid in the extracts was oxidised to dehydroascorbic acid with Norit (active carbon). Aliquots were next reacted with o-phenylenediamine to give a fluorescent quinoxaline derivative, which, on activation at 350 nm, fluoresces at 430 nm. For each food sample analysed, a specific sample blank was carried out by the addition of boric acid.

Determination of Vitamin C in Fresh Fruits and Vegetables Using the Dye-titration and Microfluorometric Methods

And measuring by fluorescence always gives a higher value.

The article above did not measure meat or dairy, but lots of fruit and vegetables (see tables). I would think that any cooked meat and pasteurized dairy wouldn't have any significant amounts of either form.

Heat can break the cylcoether bond in vitamin C.

 

[Queequeg]

But is dehydroascorbic acid as beneficial as other forms of Vitamin C (such as l-ascorbate or ascorbic acid) since it can be converted by irreversible hydrolysis to 2,3-diketogulonic acid?

Chris Masterjohn explains that dehydroascorbic acid is vulnerable to irreversible loss due to hydrolytic ring rupture before the body has a chance to recycle it back to ascorbic acid.

View attachment 4537

"dehydroascorbic acid is vulnerable to hydrolytic ring rupture, which means that, hydro = water; lytic = breaks a part, the ring. So if you look at dehydroascorbate on the top, you see this bond between the top O and this larger structure on the side that bond is what can get ruptured apart. I put the water in red to make it easier to see what is happening. Water is an H and an OH, H2O. The H comes over here and the OH comes over here and in the process breaks apart that ring."

View attachment 4536

"Once dehydroscorbic acid undergoes hydrolytic ring rupture, you can never get it back to any of the other forms; that’s irreversible loss."

"So, if we are thinking back about foods, then we want to do is prevent the formation of dehydroascorbate, because if we do that, then we are never going to have the irreversible destruction of vitamin C in the solution."

Source of quotes located here:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/16/introducing-masterclass-with-masterjohn/

To me it seems that he is talking about how Vitamin C is best preserved in food (high acidity or dry) when he is talking about dehydroascorbate (DHA). DHA in meat and dairy must be preserved naturally somehow otherwise it wouldn't be present for very long.

In the body Vitamin C and DHA cycle back and forth as a necessary part of its function. For example only DHA can pass into the mitochondria and past the blood brain barrier.

With that said I still don't know if eating DHA is as good as eating Ascorbic Acid. Some say yes some say no. Here is a long debate about DHA vs AA.
Dehydroascorbic = MUCH higher blood levels of VitC ? -

This paper says that DHA works as a alternate supplement for Vitamin C or at least in Guinea Pigs.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231715300045

 

[Queequeg]

Heat can break the cylcoether bond in vitamin C.

It does if you overcook the food but most of the vitamins are preserved from light/normal cooking.
Comparison of Vitamin Levels in Raw Foods vs. Cooked Foods

 

[Travis]

It does if you overcook the food but most of the vitamins are preserved from light/normal cooking.

According to that chart posted by the BeyondVeg guy. I couldn't find a reference to how he obtained his numbers. Perhaps he used his imagination?

Here is a scientific article on cooking and vitamin C:

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&context=smhpapers

They use the dye titration method. After the first cooking, the broccoli had lost 80% of it's vitamin C. After subsequent freezing and reheating, it then went down to only 6.5% of it's original value.

 

[Mito]

To me it seems that he is talking about how Vitamin C is best preserved in food (high acidity or dry) when he is talking about dehydroascorbate (DHA). DHA in meat and dairy must be preserved naturally somehow otherwise it wouldn't be present for very long.

I guess I was questioning if some the the DHA would be subject to hydrolytic ring rupture while eating it since the reaction seems to require only H2O?

 

[Peater Piper]

According to that chart posted by the BeyondVeg guy. I couldn't find a reference to how he obtained his numbers. Perhaps he used his imagination?

Here is a scientific article on cooking and vitamin C:

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&context=smhpapers

They use the dye titration method. After the first cooking, the broccoli had lost 80% of it's vitamin C. After subsequent freezing and reheating, it then went down to only 6.5% of it's original value.

They boiled, and I assume tossed the water. Steaming or boiling in only a small amount of water with a lid should result in less ascorbate loss.

 

[Travis]

True. Here is from another study.

Findings
– Loss of vitamin C in broccoli, spinach, and lettuce during steaming was 14.3, 11.1, and 8.6 per cent, respectively, while the loss of vitamin C during boiling was 54.6, 50.5, and 40.4 per cent, respectively. During microwaving, loss of vitamin C in broccoli, spinach, and lettuce was 28.1, 25.5, and 21.2 per cent, respectively.

Effects of different cooking methods on the vitamin C content of selected vegetables

Now, this was from a high school, but they used UV detection. So maybe even this is more accurate than university researchers using the inferior dye titration method.

I an still skeptical of beyondveg's charts. I looked through his references but I could not find the article that his charts came from (assuming they came from an article).

Here's another from the University of California:
Review Nutritional comparison of fresh, frozen and canned fruits and vegetables. Part 1. Vitamins C and B and phenolic compounds

I'm really tired right now and I haven't read this one yet. I posted it for easy reference later on when I have time to read it, and for anybody else who may be interested.

 

[Queequeg]

I guess I was questioning if some the the DHA would be subject to hydrolytic ring rupture while eating it since the reaction seems to require only H2O?

View attachment 4542

I am sure some DHA is lost but I would think that it would be pretty small since it is only in the mouth for a short time before hitting the stomach acid which would stop the conversion. I cant imagine it being that strong of a reaction because DHA is surrounded by water in the body and is still recycled back to AA.

 

[Queequeg]

According to that chart posted by the BeyondVeg guy. I couldn't find a reference to how he obtained his numbers. Perhaps he used his imagination?

First sentence, "We also investigated the USDA nutrient database [USDA Agricultural Research Service 1998] for a few foods that were analyzed both raw and cooked."
no imagination required

 

[Queequeg]

True. Here is from another study.

Effects of different cooking methods on the vitamin C content of selected vegetables

Now, this was from a high school, but they used UV detection. So maybe even this is more accurate than university researchers using the inferior dye titration method.

I an still skeptical of beyondveg's charts. I looked through his references but I could not find the article that his charts came from (assuming they came from an article).

Here's another from the University of California:
Review Nutritional comparison of fresh, frozen and canned fruits and vegetables. Part 1. Vitamins C and B and phenolic compounds

I'm really tired right now and I haven't read this one yet. I posted it for easy reference later on when I have time to read it, and for anybody else who may be interested.

We are talking about DHA in meat and whether or not this is a viable source of Vitamin C after cooking. You are posting studies on vegetables that have been highly processed and/or over cooked. I think the USDA numbers are generally accepted as reliable. Not so sure about your high school biology class paper.

 

[Travis]

We are talking about DHA in meat and whether or not this is a viable source of Vitamin C after cooking.

You were? Well I am talking about vitamin C's heat stability in general.

You are posting studies on vegetables that have been highly processed and/or over cooked.

Not really. The authors examined steaming, boiling, and microwaving. I thought that steaming was the mildest form of cooking imaginable. Way to misrepresent the articles I had posted.

I think the USDA numbers are generally accepted as reliable.

Really? Do you know what method was used? Do you know if the cooked and the fresh samples came from the same crop?

Not so sure about your high school biology class paper.

It wasn't my paper, and it wasn't a biology class. It was Chuli Zeng's paper and it was a chemistry class. Apparently it was good enough to be published in the journal Nutrition & Food Science.

 

[Travis]

Well if the USDA database is the same as the one found here: Beef, variety meats and by-products, liver, cooked, pan-fried Nutrition Facts & Calories

...then the beyongveg guy is using his imagination.

 

[paymanz]

Steam cooking probably destroy more vitamins than boiling. Higher temps and probably contact to air/oxygen...

 

[Queequeg]

You were? Well I am talking about vitamin C's heat stability in general.

no. all of us including you were talking about meat and its DHA content. To remind you, Ray said that meat provides enough vitamin C that supplementation is not necessary. You made the claim that all the vitamin C in dairy and meat would vbe destroyed by heat. This is not true.

I would think that any cooked meat and pasteurized dairy wouldn't have any significant amounts of either form. Heat can break the cylcoether bond in vitamin C.

.

Not really. The authors examined steaming, boiling, and microwaving. I thought that steaming was the mildest form of cooking imaginable. Way to misrepresent the articles I had posted.

The first study you posted put the food through an industrialized cooking process and frankly was a waste of everyone's time since nobody cooks like that.
"Delivery (day 1)
Preparation (day 2)
Cooked (day 5)
Blast chilled (day 5)
Holdroom day 1 (day 6)
Reheating day 1 (day 6)"
http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1597&context=smhpapers
The next paper you posted was from a high school student who showed that boiling vegetables destroyed vitamin c. Nothing earth shattering but just more wasting of everyone's time.
You are the one misrepresenting what you wrote