Linus Pauling May Have Been Vindicated - Vitamin C May Treat Cancer

[burtlancast]

Ray seems to suggest no one does the original method.

That's what i seemed to understand too at first; but if one looks at the Hoffman Laroche patent, it was applied in 1935; Ray talked about Cevitamic acid appearing on the market in the 50's.

Then something in the production process changed.
No new production method got patented around that time, so i assume it's the cheaper use of "dirty" equipment in some of the stages that introduced the heavy metal contamination.

 

[aquaman]

That's what i seemed to understand too at first; but if one looks at the Hoffman Laroche patent, it was applied in 1935; Ray talked about Cevitamic acid appearing on the market in the 50's.

Then something in the production process changed.
No new production method got patented around that time, so i assume it's the cheaper use of "dirty" equipment in some of the stages that introduced the heavy metal contamination.

Did they patent their particular process or ALL Vitamin C?

Ie is it possible other vitamin C was on the market alongside Roche, but was more expensive and then forced out?

 

[Travis]

I looked into this once. From what I recall, it it produced microbially.

Some bacteria makes it, totally in the natural levorotary stereoconfiguration.

There is no inherent reason why there would be contamination, but you never know. There could be lead solder joints between the pipes in the industrial machinery.

 

[paymanz]

Pauling argues that humans need much more. If you were to take the amount synthesized in the body by animals such as cats and dogs and extrapolate this onto humans who cannot make their' own, it is much more than what is commonly eaten except for some raw vegans perhaps.

Stay away from refined foods like rice and wheat and heat-treated foods. This way, you should get enough, or near enough. Ascorbate is heat-labile, so even pasteurized pineapple juice will have near zero ascorbate unless it is added afterwards.

I think he is correct, but a bane to the medical and food industries exactly for this reason.

Nobody can refute him. He was one of the most brilliant chemists in history. I adhere to his theory on cardiovascular disease 100%. I even did some fact-checking on lysine and lipoprotein A and it checks out. Theses two molecules do have a very high affinity for each other and bond 100% to each other when Lp(a) is passed through a chromatography column packed with lysine-doped media.

For those who haven't read that link, his theory on cardiovascular disease involves lipoprotein A bonding to lysine residues of collagen that hasn't been crosslinked. Citamin C is necessary to crosslink the collagen, this is beyond dispute. Pauling argues that lipoprotein A is actually a defense mechanism which plugs leaky vessels in the absence of vitamin c.

This helps explain why some carnivores cannot get atherosclerosis; they all biosynthesise their own vitamin C endogenously.

That is true until we descovering that humans can recycle vitamin c.

 

[Travis]

So you are saying that we need less because we retain it more efficiently than other mammals?

 

[paymanz]

So you are saying that we need less because we retain it more efficiently than other mammals?

Obviously,

At least a healthy human,with already normal vitamin c levels doesn't need mega doses of the vitamin.

 

[Travis]

Your response implies that other mammals need megadoses of said vitamin. Would you say that explicitly?

Obviously we need normal levels, and you can define megadoses as a considerable amount over that. But what would be the "normal" amount in your opinion, in terms of milligrams?

 

[paymanz]

Your response implies that other mammals need megadoses of said vitamin. Would you say that explicitly?

Obviously we need normal levels, and you can define megadoses as a considerable amount over that. But what would be the "normal" amount in your opinion, in terms of milligrams?

Guinea pigs for example are unable to make their own vitamin c and unlike us are unable to recycle it,so they need similar amounts of what you mentioned.

From balance studies on humans, 300-400 mg a day is what we need,the optimal dose.

Linus Pauling's institute also recommends around this dose.

 

[Amazoniac]

http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html

 

[Travis]

Is that the amount needed to prevent scurvy with a safety factor applied?

Linus Pauling himself recommended much more than that Institute with his namesake. He makes a good case that cardiovascular disease is the result of subclinical vitamin C deficiency.

His logic is flawless in my opinion.

To find the optimum dose in humans would be unethical, since you would have to histologically and chemically examine the crosslinking of the subject's collagen. Perhaps you could do this with dead skin, so maybe it would be doable.

I would consider the optimal dose the amount required to maintain ideal structural integrity of the collagen matrix. Scurvy manifests itself as collagen breakdown.

The general antioxidant effects are secondary; there are many antioxidants. But Vitamin C has a very specific function in maintaining collagen.

 

[paymanz]

Those are doses that when you go further your kidneys start to release vitamin c so fast.

I am very interest in connective tissue health topic myself,

If we are not able to sustain good connective tissue quality with these 300-400 mg then maybe we are low on other factors that affect its health.

Glycine,proline,taurine,manganese,zinc,b6,vitamin k,silicon,...
And higher doses of vitamin c covers those shortages to some degree.
For example:
The Role Of Vitamin K In The Metabolism Of Connective Tissue Biopolymers

The Metabolic Capacity For Glycine Biosynthesis Does Not Satisfy The Need For Collagen Synthesis.


Just speculating, maybe your point is correct.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I've made a lot of lipo C but it is made with a lot of lecithin. So contains pufas

 

[Travis]

Is liposomal vitamin C even necessary since it is water-soluble and survives digestion?

Seems just like a trick to sell something for more that it's worth.

 

[Koveras]

Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 2012;52(9):815-29. doi: 10.1080/10408398.2011.649149.
Authors' perspective: What is the optimum intake of vitamin C in humans?
Frei B1, Birlouez-Aragon I, Lykkesfeldt J.

The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) of vitamin C has traditionally been based on the prevention of the vitamin C deficiency disease, scurvy. While higher intakes of vitamin C may exert additional health benefits, the limited Phase III randomized placebo-controlled trials (RCTs) of vitamin C supplementation have not found consistent benefit with respect to chronic disease prevention. To date, this has precluded upward adjustments of the current RDA. Here we argue that Phase III RCTs-designed principally to test the safety and efficacy of pharmaceutical drugs-are ill suited to assess the health benefits of essential nutrients; and the currently available scientific evidence is sufficient to determine the optimum intake of vitamin C in humans. This evidence establishes biological plausibility and mechanisms of action for vitamin C in the primary prevention of coronary heart disease, stroke, and cancer; and is buttressed by consistent data from prospective cohort studies based on blood analysis or dietary intake and well-designed Phase II RCTs. These RCTs show that vitamin C supplementation lowers hypertension, endothelial dysfunction, chronic inflammation, and Helicobacter pylori infection, which are independent risk factors of cardiovascular diseases and certain cancers. Furthermore, vitamin C acts as a biological antioxidant that can lower elevated levels of oxidative stress, which also may contribute to chronic disease prevention. Based on the combined evidence from human metabolic, pharmacokinetic, and observational studies and Phase II RCTs, we conclude that 200 mg per day is the optimum dietary intake of vitamin C for the majority of the adult population to maximize the vitamin's potential health benefits with the least risk of inadequacy or adverse health effects.

 

[Pet Peeve]

Why take vitamin c as a supplement? One quart of freshly squeezed oj (not the pasteurized enzymatically treated pulp crap in the store) has 500 mg of vitamin c. One tiny guava has 150 mg.

 

[Travis]

It depends on how much you think is enough. This is open for debate.

You can take the extrapolation based on other mammals' endogenous synthesis as the proper amount, or you can take the conclusions of any number of scientists. My answer is simply the amount we would get from eating natural foods without cooking, since heat destroys this vitamin. Pauling makes a good case that it's good to have more than the bare minimum needed to prevent scurvy.

Given, the amount daily contained on one orange is enough to allow live into your 80's. But can you do better with more vitamin C? Less wrinkles? It is essential for collagen crosslinking and synthesis.

Is anything over 500mg just a burden on metabolism without conferring any added benefit? I am not sure. I am going to carry on with a high fruit existence regardless. This is a water-soluble vitamin so a slight overdose is essentially harmless.

 

[InChristAlone]

Good discussion! I guess the choice is up to the individual. If vitamin C can protect us from toxicity I see no reason not to take more than the min. required amount. If your diet was all fresh fruit and veggies by the pounds certainly you'd be getting more than 200mg. But even if it is recycled doesn't mean there are no benefits to getting more. I've only seen benefits so far, and regardless of the verdict here I will do what is best for my body.

 

[What-a-Riot]

To me the idea of how much we would naturally consume is out the window, because at this point we live in an unnaturally toxic world. Sort of how I feel about caffeine, too, like a certain amount of sleep deprivation is expected of everyone because of the way most societies operate (work schedules, constant light/sound throwing off 'sleep hygiene,' etc) so i consider caffeine a way to maintain ideal adenosine homeostasis in the face of inavoidable inconsistency. Hardly really related at all, just something I think about

 

[paymanz]

I agree that natural sources are best, but in some situations good quality fruits are not accessible.

Regardless of dosage, I found sodium ascorbate, or mixture of baking soda and ascorbic acid to be superior to plain ascorbic acid.(less irritating , and according to some sources, slower absorption)

 

[burtlancast]

is it possible other vitamin C was on the market alongside Roche, but was more expensive and then forced out?

After researching this, here's what i found:

- Norman Haworth and Edmund Hirst were the very first people to manufacture synthetic Vit C, in 1933 in Britain, and received the 1937 Nobel prize for it. Their method included an intermediary 5 carbon sugar (L-xylosone) that they had derived from a 6 carbon sugar (D-galactose).
The process was fastidious, with only a 15% yield.
Yet there are still reports of using other 5 carbon sugars (xylose, lyxose, arabinose) to achieve Vit C synthesis, as recently as 1980.

- Reichstein and Grussner, working for Hoffman-Laroche, discovered a totally different method later in 1933, patented it and sold it to Hoffman Laroche in 1934, which included both a chemical and microbial step, that started from a 6 carbon sugar ( D-glucose) and gave a 50% yield.

Hoffman started in 1934 the cheap mass production of Vit C under the name "REDOXON"
REDOXON Trademark of HOFFMAN-LA ROCHE, INC.. Serial Number: 71350953 :: Trademarkia Trademarks

Reichstein continued thereafter to ameliorate his process with the ensuing patents:
- Process for the manufacture of levo ascorbic acid (vitamin C). US patent 2,265,121,(1940).
- 2-Keto-levo-gulonic acid and process for the manufacture of same. US patent 2 (301),811. (1941)


"Between 1933 and 1934 not only Haworth and Edmund Hirst had synthesized vitamin C, but also, independently, Tadeus Reichstein succeeded in synthesizing the vitamin in bulk, making it the first vitamin to be artificially produced.[171] The latter process made possible the cheap mass-production of semi-synthetic vitamin C, which was quickly marketed."

"Even today all industrial methods for the production of ascorbic acid are based on the Reichstein process. In modern methods however, sorbose is directly oxidized with a platinum catalyst (developed by Kurt Heyns (1908–2005) in 1942). This method avoids the use of protective groups"

" It has been estimated that about forty thousand tonnes of the vitamin are now manufactured annually (not including any produced in China or those countries that, until recently, were regarded as the 'Eastern bloc') and one of the biggest producers, not unexpectedly, is the Roche Company."

- Other non-commercial synthesis methods with poor yields are:
. Use of 6 carbon precursor, D-galactouronic acid [CHO(CHOH),COOH],obtained by enzymic hydrolysis of pectin; the overall yield is poor.

. Combination of C4 and C, carbon units. ."An example of this is the benzoin condensation reaction between L-threose and ethyl glyoxalate in the presence of sodium cyanide."

In the 1960's, China started replacing some chemical steps in the Reichstein process with additional fermentation ones, for better yield/improved costs. (see "Detailed Project Profiles on Chemical Industries")

Today's research concentrates on bio engineering thanks to the elucidation of bio synthesis of Vit C in plants and animals.

As far as the Cevitamic acid Ray talks about, this isn't a trademark name, but rather a synonym for ascorbic acid, that was used interchangeably during the 1930's, but has disappeared now.
(1940 patent: "Vitamin C has now been isolated and identified, as cevitamic acid, otherwise called ascorbic acid")
There has never been a trademark "Cevitamic acid" in the USA, ever. http://www.trademarkia.com/trademarks-search.aspx?tn=cevitamic+acid

I have absolutely no evidence the Cevitamic acid Ray bought in the 50's was made with the Haworth method.