haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,545
Location
USA / Europe
It look like Linus Pauling may have the last laugh after all. The studies below show that high-dose IV therapy with vitamin C dramatically increases survival of several highly lethal cancers (e.g. pancreatic). Even the lead author is in disbelief and says the results are unheard of.
Pharmacological ascorbate reduces radiation-induced normal tissue toxicity and enhances tumor radiosensitization in pancreatic cancer
Mechanisms of ascorbate-induced cytotoxicity in pancreatic cancer

U-I starting new trials of vitamin C treatment against cancer - Radio Iowa
"...Doctor Joe Cullen, a U-I professor of surgery, is helping head up the study. He says they’re launching a new round of clinical trials in cancer patients using IVs of vitamin C along with chemotherapy and radiation. “Vitamin C acts as an antioxidant but we give very large doses and we give it intravenously and at those large doses, you get very, very high levels,” Dr. Cullen says. “So, we’ve increased the levels a hundred-fold and when you do that, it actually kills cancer cells.”"

"...The U-I has already been conducting trials using vitamin C to treat pancreatic cancer, non-small cell lung cancer, and an aggressive type of brain cancer known as GBM. So far, Cullen says the results are very encouraging, especially with a trial that just finished for locally-advanced pancreatic cancer. “We increased the overall survival from 11 months to 21 months,” Cullen says. “We have two long-term survivals that are almost out four years, which is kind of unheard of for pancreatic cancer. In one of our earlier trials, looking at patients with Stage 4 pancreatic cancer where the survival is about six months, we increased the survival to about 16 months.” Researchers at U-I’s Holden Comprehensive Cancer Center have just received a five-year, $9.7 million grant from the National Cancer Institute to continue the trials of high-dose vitamin C. Cullen says it promises to be a safe, simple, cost-effective approach to improving treatment for many kinds of cancer."

What the good doctor neglects to mention is the mechanism through which vitamin C kills cancer cells. In the body, ascorbic acid gets oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid and that second, active form of vitamin C is actually a powerful oxidant which raises ROS levels beyound what cancer cells can tolerate. It gets taken up by cells using the same transport as glucose, so cells can easily taken in a VERY high amount which is usually OK for normal cells but quickly kills cancer cells. A similar approach, using a combination of vitamin A and vitamin K3 (trade name Apatone™) was recently approved for untreatable prostate cancer and so far all patients treated with it are alive, which is again unheard of for last stage cancer. The same combination is apparently effective for ovarian cancer too, which underscores the systemic (non-specific) effects of such treatment.
A 12 Week, Open Label, Phase I/IIa Study Using Apatone® for the Treatment of Prostate Cancer Patients Who Have Failed Standard Therapy
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214854X15300066

The role of adding vitamin K3 is to oxidize the vitamin C more readily once in the organism as a result of the powerful oxidizing effect of the K3 (menadione). The same effects can be achieved much more safely with a combination of vitamin C and any other vitamin K, emodin or methylene blue (MB). In fact, using MB would be better because inside the organism the reduced/colorless MB will oxidize again and will continue to support respiration on top of the benefit the oxidized vitamin C will have. Using vitamin K3 (menadione) will likely only provide the benefit of oxidized vitamin C but without continued redox effects that MB can provide.
 

Mauritio

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
2,266
So you say an anti-oxidant,which Vitamin C is, is actually a pro-oxidant and thats how it kills cancer ?
Reminds me of H2O2 and Ozone therapy . So shouldn't those be able to achieve the same in higher doses ?
 

sugarbabe

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
3,339
This is great, thanks for posting. I'm surprised they are even willing to study it being these treatments would be substantially less profitable than chemo. They will probably say well we can try it in conjunction with standard treatments. Lol!
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
1,122

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,545
Location
USA / Europe
This is great, thanks for posting. I'm surprised they are even willing to study it being these treatments would be substantially less profitable than chemo. They will probably say well we can try it in conjunction with standard treatments. Lol!

Pharma is desperate to produce something that works. Sales are in the gutter and people are not buying meds as much any more, especially for cancer. So, it is actually quite nefarious but as you as you said by combining it with traditional therapy they can bring back metabolic therapy to the market without ever admitting that the old approach did not work. And since it is a combination of treatments, the benefit will never be ascribed to vitamin C. However, the studies with Apatone and the fact that only chemo with standard drugs is not doing anything shows clearly where the benefit is coming from when adding vitamin C :): If anybody is willing to find the truth it is right there in plain sight. All Big Pharma is doing is covering itself legally and muddying the water.
Keep in mind they may soon bring testosterone therapy as treatment for prostate cancer, after 8 decades claiming T and DHT were causing the prostate cancer. And how do they do that? By combining the T with another approved drug for prostate cancer (Lupron) to prevent the public from claiming it is T that is the true cure.
DHT Prevents Prostate Cancer And May Even Treat It
Cancer "paradox": Testosterone Treats Prostate Cancer
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,545
Location
USA / Europe
So you say an anti-oxidant,which Vitamin C is, is actually a pro-oxidant and thats how it kills cancer ?
Reminds me of H2O2 and Ozone therapy . So shouldn't those be able to achieve the same in higher doses ?

Yes, oxidized vitamin C (dehydroascorbic acid) is an oxidizing agent and not an anti-oxidant. Reduced vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is an antioxidant but the benefit is only due to dehydroascorbic acid. If you read the two studies on Apatone I linked to it is all explained there.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
5,315
However, the studies with Apatone and the fact that only chemo with standard drugs is not doing anything shows clearly where the benefit is coming from when adding vitamin C :): If anybody is willing to find the truth it is right there in plain sight. All Big Pharma is doing is covering itself legally and muddying the water.

Excellent stuff as always, but the part I bolded..... that's what I'm really realizing is the case 95% of the time. The truth IS out there, in the public domain even. But, it's just not advertised, or tends to be ignored by so called authorities. You have to do a little digging yourself, often times with a helpful guide. But it will never be spoon fed to you.
 

Queequeg

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
1,191
Im taking 6 grams. I would just say that its probably best to put it in pill form or something else besides water so you dont dissolve your teeth
 

jondoeuk

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
94
This is great, thanks for posting. I'm surprised they are even willing to study it being these treatments would be substantially less profitable than chemo. They will probably say well we can try it in conjunction with standard treatments. Lol!

It's known as SOC for a reason. In one trial they tested FOLFIRINOX against gemcitabine in patients with metastatic pancreatic cancer The median survival on the FOLFIRINOX arm was 11.1 months, versus 6.8 months on the gemcitabine arm NEJM - Error

For those that go on to progress or can't tolerate it then nab-paclitaxel and gemcitabine is another option. The combo improves median survival by around 2 months (8.5 vs 6.7 months). One-year and 2-year survival rates were also higher in the combination therapy group (35% vs 22% and 9% vs 4%, respectively) NEJM - Error

A drug (CPI-613) that targets energy metabolism is in a PhIII right now. The trial is testing this and mFOLFIRINOX against mFOLFIRINOX alone. Here is data from the PhI https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(17)30314-5/fulltext
 

Logan-

Member
Joined
May 26, 2018
Messages
758
I think instead of taking a huge dose at one time, dividing the dose throughout the day would better increase the serum levels.

Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1165-71.
Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid.
Blanchard J1, Tozer TN, Rowland M.
Author information
Abstract
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is commonly used as a dietary supplement, often in megadoses. However, as the daily oral dose is increased, the concentration of ascorbic acid in the plasma and other body fluids does not increase proportionally, but instead tends to approach an upper limit. For example, when the daily dose is increased from 200 to 2500 mg (from 1.1 to 14.2 mmol) the mean steady state plasma concentration increases only from approximately 12 to 15 mg/L (from 68.1 to 85.2 mumol/L). Published data were reanalyzed with an integrated modeling approach to shed new quantitative light on this phenomenon. This analysis is based on the renal clearance of ascorbic acid, which rises sharply with increasing plasma concentrations as a result of saturable tubular reabsorption. The analysis indicates that both saturable gastrointestinal absorption and nonlinear renal clearance act additively to produce the ceiling effect in plasma concentrations. As a consequence of this ceiling effect, there is no pharmacokinetic justification for the use of megadoses of ascorbic acid.

Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid. - PubMed - NCBI
 

Queequeg

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
1,191
I think instead of taking a huge dose at one time, dividing the dose throughout the day would better increase the serum levels.

Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1165-71.
Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid.
Blanchard J1, Tozer TN, Rowland M.
Author information
Abstract

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is commonly used as a dietary supplement, often in megadoses. However, as the daily oral dose is increased, the concentration of ascorbic acid in the plasma and other body fluids does not increase proportionally, but instead tends to approach an upper limit. For example, when the daily dose is increased from 200 to 2500 mg (from 1.1 to 14.2 mmol) the mean steady state plasma concentration increases only from approximately 12 to 15 mg/L (from 68.1 to 85.2 mumol/L). Published data were reanalyzed with an integrated modeling approach to shed new quantitative light on this phenomenon. This analysis is based on the renal clearance of ascorbic acid, which rises sharply with increasing plasma concentrations as a result of saturable tubular reabsorption. The analysis indicates that both saturable gastrointestinal absorption and nonlinear renal clearance act additively to produce the ceiling effect in plasma concentrations. As a consequence of this ceiling effect, there is no pharmacokinetic justification for the use of megadoses of ascorbic acid.

Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid. - PubMed - NCBI
absolutely, I read on the Vit C foundation site that a 4x/day dosing schedule is enough to maintain a high level of Vitamin C
 

Vinero

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
1,485
Age
29
Location
Netherlands
Im taking 6 grams. I would just say that its probably best to put it in pill form or something else besides water so you dont dissolve your teeth
Damn thats a lot. Why 6 grams? Do you find the benefits peak at 6 grams?
 

jondoeuk

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
94
I think instead of taking a huge dose at one time, dividing the dose throughout the day would better increase the serum levels.

Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1165-71.
Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid.
Blanchard J1, Tozer TN, Rowland M.
Author information
Abstract

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is commonly used as a dietary supplement, often in megadoses. However, as the daily oral dose is increased, the concentration of ascorbic acid in the plasma and other body fluids does not increase proportionally, but instead tends to approach an upper limit. For example, when the daily dose is increased from 200 to 2500 mg (from 1.1 to 14.2 mmol) the mean steady state plasma concentration increases only from approximately 12 to 15 mg/L (from 68.1 to 85.2 mumol/L). Published data were reanalyzed with an integrated modeling approach to shed new quantitative light on this phenomenon. This analysis is based on the renal clearance of ascorbic acid, which rises sharply with increasing plasma concentrations as a result of saturable tubular reabsorption. The analysis indicates that both saturable gastrointestinal absorption and nonlinear renal clearance act additively to produce the ceiling effect in plasma concentrations. As a consequence of this ceiling effect, there is no pharmacokinetic justification for the use of megadoses of ascorbic acid.

Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid. - PubMed - NCBI

Adding on oral could be of help (along with IV and SOC) Vitamin C and Cancer: Is There A Use For Oral Vitamin C?
 

Queequeg

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
1,191
Damn thats a lot. Why 6 grams? Do you find the benefits peak at 6 grams?
Im trying to do the Pauling therapy for CVD prevention. He was taking 18 grams.
 

sugarbabe

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
3,339
It's known as SOC for a reason. In one trial they tested FOLFIRINOX against gemcitabine in patients with metastatic pancreatic cancer The median survival on the FOLFIRINOX arm was 11.1 months, versus 6.8 months on the gemcitabine arm NEJM - Error

For those that go on to progress or can't tolerate it then nab-paclitaxel and gemcitabine is another option. The combo improves median survival by around 2 months (8.5 vs 6.7 months). One-year and 2-year survival rates were also higher in the combination therapy group (35% vs 22% and 9% vs 4%, respectively) NEJM - Error

A drug (CPI-613) that targets energy metabolism is in a PhIII right now. The trial is testing this and mFOLFIRINOX against mFOLFIRINOX alone. Here is data from the PhI https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(17)30314-5/fulltext
I'm not following this logic. So they survived for several more months. I mean.... Is that SOC? Being able to live with a deadly cancer for a few more months? I'd say just give me pailliative care if that's the case! I don't want to be sick beyond belief in my final days.
 

Cirion

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
3,731
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
I have been taking 6-10 grams of vitamin C daily for a while now myself. Many people advocate upwards of 20 grams vitamin C for maintenance, and more if you're unhealthy. I think 20 grams is about the max you can take a day though without IV intervention, due to... bowel movements I'll say lol.

I believe dosages as high as 500-2000 grams (not a typo) were used in the olden days for some diseases like pneumonia or polio.

Vitamin C is hardly a new thing, it's only being rediscovered is all.
 

Logan-

Member
Joined
May 26, 2018
Messages
758
@haidut, what do you think about Ray Peat's stance on vitamin C supplements?

"Over the next 20 years, my own increased sensitivity to synthetic ascorbate led me to look for such reactions in others. The same people who reacted to it often reacted similarly to riboflavin and rutin, which were also made from cornstarch by oxidation. I ascribed the reaction to some industrial contaminant that they had in common, possibly the heavy metals introduced with the sulfuric acid. The heavy metal contamination of synthetic ascorbate is so great that one 500 mg tablet dissolved in a liter of water produces free radicals at a rate that would require a killing dose of x-rays to equal. The only clean and safe vitamin C now available is that in fresh fruits, meats, etc. The commercial stuff is seriously dangerous." - Ray Peat
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
P High dose vitamin k2 around 45mg makes vericocele vanish Male Issues 7
C Vitamin D, daily low dose or infrequent high dose? Vitamins 11
Mito The Importance And Safety Of High-Dose Vitamin D3 D 9
Mito Effect Of High-Dose Vitamin D Supplementation On Volumetric Bone Density And Bone Strength D 1
A What Is The Problem With High Dose Vitamin E Supplementation? E 11
A Does High Dose Vitamin C Increase The Body's Requirements For Magnesium (or Sodium) ? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 18
A.R Is 5mg Vitamin D IM Injection Too High Of A Dose? Ask For Help or Advice 8
A Could High Dose Vitamin K2 Stop Absorption Of Other Fat Solubles? Or Other Problems? K 9
A High Dose Of Vitamin B6? Ray Peat Topics 4
F Anyone Tried Camu Powder For High Dose Vitamin C? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 2
T High Dose Vitamin D3 Daily (100,00iu) Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 45
haidut High-dose Vitamin C Or Niacinamide May Treat Advanced Colon Cancer Scientific Studies 12
Renaiscience_Man High Dose Aspirin And Vitamin K2 May Be The Key To Eradicate ''incurable'' Bacterial Infections Whic Scientific Studies 15
Gabriel High Dose Vitamin E Supplements Antagonize Vitamin K K 8
L High-dose Vitamin K2 Supplementation K 28
C Is high-dose Thiamine therapy safe? Vitamins 10
Mr Joe Combo High Dose (B1 + Cypro + B3) + T3 for recovery Mental Issues 12
charlie An Open-Label Pilot Study With High-Dose Thiamine in Parkinson's Disease Scientific Studies 5
R High dose taurine long-term 3-5G per day? Taurine 2
5 Chronic, High-Dose Androgen Use and Adrenal Suppression Male Issues 0
N Do you need extra calcium with high dose k2? K 16
youngsinatra High Dose Niacinamide Self-Experiment. Experiments 29
Mito Effect Of High-Dose Omega-3 On Major Adverse Cardiovascular Events Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 0
maillol UK High Dose K2 MK4 Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 3
ddjd High Dose Taurine Definitely Effective Against MPB Ask For Help or Advice 17
HealthisWealth The Manila Doctors Hospital Is The First In The World To Try High-dose Melatonin (36 Mg To 72 Mg/day Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 0
haidut Low-dose (but Not High) Niacinamide Reverses Reproductive Decline In Old Females Scientific Studies 6
Jib High-Dose Glycine For OCD And BDD Scientific Studies 8
boris High Dose Cyproheptadine Cyproheptadine 6
ddjd Anyone Experiment With High Dose Taurine? Ask For Help or Advice 104
Ficini High Dose Taurine To Reverse Tinnitus Eyes, Ears, Nose and Headaches/Migraines 33
Mito Metabolic Effects Of A Prolonged, Very-high-dose Dietary Fructose Challenge In Healthy Subjects Scientific Studies 11
ddjd Solved Dandruff Problem With High Dose K2 MK4 Ask For Help or Advice 5
E Issues After Taking High Dose Niacinamide Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 18
Peatogenic High Dose Androsterone Supplements 9
olive Iron Deficiency Anemia Due To High-dose Turmeric Scientific Studies 21
ImprovingDaily Have Any Of You Tried Exemestane With High Dose DHEA Or Anything Similar? What Were Your Results? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 6
Infarouge High Dose Iodine (grams) Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 26
Hans High Dose Methylene Blue Experiment Experiments 122
F High Dose Progesterone Increasing My Insulin Resistance? Female Issues 49
burtlancast High Dose Niacin (6g/day) Reduces Hypercholesterolemia By 20% Or More Scientific Studies 1
Arrade High Dose Mk4 Hairloss Hair & Nails 59
H High-dose Proline For Sleep? Amino Acids 3
S High Dose Vit E Every Day. Is Cycling Required? E 3
biggirlkisss High Dose Apsirin Wtih K2 For Back And Shoudler Pain Ask For Help or Advice 0
B Oregano High Dose When Breast Feeding? Female Issues 5
biggirlkisss Why Do Antihistimes Are High Enough Dose Increase Serotonin Ask For Help or Advice 7
K Why Can't I High Dose Progesterone? Female Issues 14
gilson dantas Progesteone High Dose And Prolactine . Raising Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 41
S Using High-dose Pregnenolone As An Anti-depressant Experiments 67

Similar threads

Top