chimdp

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Have you considered that the bad effects from MB could be an increased metabolism without adequate substrate to sustain it?

I have been eating a Peat inspired diet for almost three years now and make sure to get plenty of calories, usually 2500-3000. The MB feeling is very different than the stress reaction from taking too much caffeine or T3.
 

Makrosky

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I have been eating a Peat inspired diet for almost three years now and make sure to get plenty of calories, usually 2500-3000. The MB feeling is very different than the stress reaction from taking too much caffeine or T3.
Cool. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of that possibility. It happens to me with MB if I take it without food.
 

Mossy

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Can someone make sense of that data and extract the used dosage out of that ? It is listed on page 24 .
Also they tested 200 other chemicals , that might be worth looking into as well...

JCI - Stress-induced epinephrine enhances lactate dehydrogenase A and promotes breast cancer stem-like cells
This may help. Here are Linus Pauling's daily vitamin C recommendations for heart and cardiovascular health:

Therapeutic
  1. Vitamin C (6,000 to 18,000 mg)
Preventive
  1. Vitamin C (3,000 to 10,000 mg)

Here is more from Oregon State University.
 

Kyle Bigman

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If vitamin C is an oxidizing agent, would taking it without knowledge of any tumors be detrimental? Is it damaging to the normal cells as well as the tumor cells?
 
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It seems like stress/overthinking is the cause of all diseases and a calm mind/CO2 is the cure for all diseases.

I think this is accurate, and is a good starting point for anyone. Mental/emotional stress is uniquely destructive. It's worth remembering that, according to Ray, the relaxed state is one of adequate energy supplies.
 

LeeLemonoil

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It’s striking how substances that decrease stress (=catabolic to tissue) that we think of in a more neurological way, also are very beneficial to connective tissue.
Ascorbic acid stimulates collagen-formation and hyaluronic acid.
GABA was recently shown to stimulate Elastin de novo synthesis.

Maybe that’s part of the anti cancer action. They inhibit the tumors and metastases by strengthening sourroundkng tissues.
As far as I know it was already shown that MMP homeostasis is a factor in this.

That’s in line with what @lampofred said: stress of the „mind“is stress of the body. Because eventually the same mechanisms are at play
 
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haidut

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If vitamin C is an oxidizing agent, would taking it without knowledge of any tumors be detrimental? Is it damaging to the normal cells as well as the tumor cells?

Vitamin C as in plain ascorbic acid is NOT an oxidizing agent, it is a reducing agent (i.e. antioxidant). The oxidized version of vitamin C known as DHAA is an oxidant. Taking regular vitamin C without a quinone like vitamin K, MB, emodin, etc amounts to taking an antioxidant.
 

Kyle Bigman

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Vitamin C as in plain ascorbic acid is NOT an oxidizing agent, it is a reducing agent (i.e. antioxidant). The oxidized version of vitamin C known as DHAA is an oxidant. Taking regular vitamin C without a quinone like vitamin K, MB, emodin, etc amounts to taking an antioxidant.
So, is this study advocating people take the oxidized form of vitamin C (DHAA)? I thought the study just says plain old vitamin C will work. Or is there some mechanism where the tumor cell converts the ascorbic acid to its oxidized form?
 

Inaut

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Was this posted already by you @haidut ? My apologies if so.

"Cancer cells are particularly vulnerable to treatments impairing redox homeostasis. Reactive oxygen species (ROS) can indeed play an important role in the initiation and progression of cancer, and advanced stage tumors frequently exhibit high basal levels of ROS that stimulate cell proliferation and promote genetic instability. In addition, an inverse correlation between histological grade and antioxidant enzyme activities is frequently observed in human tumors, further supporting the existence of a redox dysregulation in cancer cells. This biochemical property can be exploited by using redox-modulating compounds, which represent an interesting approach to induce cancer cell death. Thus, we have developed a new strategy based on the use of pharmacologic concentrations of ascorbate and redox-active quinones. Ascorbate-driven quinone redox cycling leads to ROS formation and provoke an oxidative stress that preferentially kill cancer cells and spare healthy tissues. Cancer cell death occurs through necrosis and the underlying mechanism implies an energetic impairment (ATP depletion) that is likely due to glycolysis inhibition. Additional mechanisms that participate to cell death include calcium equilibrium impairment and oxidative cleavage of protein chaperone Hsp90. Given the low systemic toxicity of ascorbate and the impairment of crucial survival pathways when associated with redox-active quinones, these combinations could represent an original approach that could be combined to standard cancer therapy."

https://www.researchgate.net/public...erability_of_cancer_cells_to_oxidative_stress
 
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haidut

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Was this posted already by you @haidut ? My apologies if so.

"Cancer cells are particularly vulnerable to treatments impairing redox homeostasis. Reactive oxygen species (ROS) can indeed play an important role in the initiation and progression of cancer, and advanced stage tumors frequently exhibit high basal levels of ROS that stimulate cell proliferation and promote genetic instability. In addition, an inverse correlation between histological grade and antioxidant enzyme activities is frequently observed in human tumors, further supporting the existence of a redox dysregulation in cancer cells. This biochemical property can be exploited by using redox-modulating compounds, which represent an interesting approach to induce cancer cell death. Thus, we have developed a new strategy based on the use of pharmacologic concentrations of ascorbate and redox-active quinones. Ascorbate-driven quinone redox cycling leads to ROS formation and provoke an oxidative stress that preferentially kill cancer cells and spare healthy tissues. Cancer cell death occurs through necrosis and the underlying mechanism implies an energetic impairment (ATP depletion) that is likely due to glycolysis inhibition. Additional mechanisms that participate to cell death include calcium equilibrium impairment and oxidative cleavage of protein chaperone Hsp90. Given the low systemic toxicity of ascorbate and the impairment of crucial survival pathways when associated with redox-active quinones, these combinations could represent an original approach that could be combined to standard cancer therapy."

https://www.researchgate.net/public...erability_of_cancer_cells_to_oxidative_stress

I don't see it posted anywhere, so thanks for finding it.
 
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haidut

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So, is this study advocating people take the oxidized form of vitamin C (DHAA)? I thought the study just says plain old vitamin C will work. Or is there some mechanism where the tumor cell converts the ascorbic acid to its oxidized form?

This study was with plain vitamin C but its effects are likely due to internal oxidation and delivery to the tumor in the form of DHAA. The effects of DHAA are well-known and there is even an FDA approved drug called Apatone, which combined 5g of plain vitamin C with 50mg vitamin K3 (a quinone) and it seems to very effective for terminal prostate cancer.
PSA Cancer Levels Lowered By Vitamin K3 + Vit C Apatone - CANCER

So, that's why I suggested the vitamin C + MB combination as an alternative to Apatone. The DHAA form of vitamin C is likely much more effective than the reduced form, which is a fact that Pauling was not aware of when he was doing his studies. As such, much lower doses of DHAA are likely needed compared to the doses of plain vitamin C needed to achieve the same effects.
 

Kyle Bigman

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This study was with plain vitamin C but its effects are likely due to internal oxidation and delivery to the tumor in the form of DHAA. The effects of DHAA are well-known and there is even an FDA approved drug called Apatone, which combined 5g of plain vitamin C with 50mg vitamin K3 (a quinone) and it seems to very effective for terminal prostate cancer.
PSA Cancer Levels Lowered By Vitamin K3 + Vit C Apatone - CANCER

So, that's why I suggested the vitamin C + MB combination as an alternative to Apatone. The DHAA form of vitamin C is likely much more effective than the reduced form, which is a fact that Pauling was not aware of when he was doing his studies. As such, much lower doses of DHAA are likely needed compared to the doses of plain vitamin C needed to achieve the same effects.

Wouldn't taking vitamin K and C together then be something harmful for a healthy individual without a tumor, since cells would be bombarded with oxidized DHAA? Seems like Vit. C can be both antioxidant and pro-oxidant at the same time here...
 
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haidut

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Wouldn't taking vitamin K and C together then be something harmful for a healthy individual without a tumor, since cells would be bombarded with oxidized DHAA? Seems like Vit. C can be both antioxidant and pro-oxidant at the same time here...

I don't think DHAA is bad. It really depends on the dose. It's like saying that for a healthy individual using a quinone like COQ10, vitamin K, emodin, MB, etc would be bad. And we know it is not.
 

Mauritio

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This may help. Here are Linus Pauling's daily vitamin C recommendations for heart and cardiovascular health:

Therapeutic
  1. Vitamin C (6,000 to 18,000 mg)
Preventive
  1. Vitamin C (3,000 to 10,000 mg)

Here is more from Oregon State University.
I have read his book. but i dont think i am gonna do this much at the moment.
 

LeeLemonoil

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Can MB and Vitamin C ne taken together (as in the same glass of water) to achieve DHAA?
Small doses, e.g. 500mcg+350 mg Vit C?
 

Logan-

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If one decides to go the vitamin C route then you can get dehydroascorbic acid easily and cheaply by using either taking regular vitamin C combined with MB, or make a solution of dissolved vitamin C and add MB to it so that MB oxidizes the ascorbic acid and turns it into DHA. I mentioned this approach in another thread on DHA and the advantage is that if make the solution with vitamin C + MB, and leave it exposed to open air after a few days the MB will get re-oxidized back to blue color and then you consume the liquid you will have two oxidizing agents - the DHA and the newly reoxidized MB, which will likely have a much more potent effects as both MB and DHA inhibit LDH and lactate formation. The reason DHA is more effective is that cancer cells take it up by the same mechanism (GLUT4/5) as glucose and are really hungry for it. So, when they overdose on an oxidizing agent like DHA they quickly die. Adding MB makes that process even more effective.
@schultz @tankasnowgod @lampofred @tallglass13

haidut, you know that fresh vitamin C has a white colour, and in time its colour becomes yellow.

Does the colour change indicate that it is becoming the oxidised form (dehydroascorbic acid) that we want to ingest, or is that yellow substance something different and harmful/useless?

Can we get the same DHA by keeping the vitamin C powder's package open to accelerate the process?
 

LucyL

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Vitamin C as in plain ascorbic acid is NOT an oxidizing agent, it is a reducing agent (i.e. antioxidant). The oxidized version of vitamin C known as DHAA is an oxidant. Taking regular vitamin C without a quinone like vitamin K, MB, emodin, etc amounts to taking an antioxidant.

Is K2 the best form to take with Vit C? and would just taking them at the same time work? With the MB, again could that be just taken at the same time as the Vit C, or do they need to be combined first as you described elsewhere in this thread? How about if its a liposomal C, which you put in a little water, would adding a drop or two of MB directly to that mix work?
 
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haidut

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Is K2 the best form to take with Vit C? and would just taking them at the same time work? With the MB, again could that be just taken at the same time as the Vit C, or do they need to be combined first as you described elsewhere in this thread? How about if its a liposomal C, which you put in a little water, would adding a drop or two of MB directly to that mix work?

Plain vitamin C without any liposomal enhancements is best if you want to convert it to DHAA. Any quinone can be used with vitamin C, including emodin, CoQ10, MB, K2, etc and they can just be taken at the same time and some of the vitamin C should be converted into DHAA in vivo. That is how Apatone works - it simply administers vitamin C and K3 together.
 

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