Knocking It Down To The Foundations And Rebuilding Anew

[Dr.Winston O'Boogie]

Discovering the research of Ray Peat has been an education to me. I've always liked people who call things how they see them rather than buckle under pressure and 'Toe the Line', especially when what they say is new and makes sense.

Anyway I'm 52 years old. I started experimenting with 'Peating' about 3 months ago at a weight of approx. 87kg, that's borderline heavy for me. I look slim at 85kg and below with 82 being what I'd call lean. I've always tended to gain weight which I dealt with by running 5 miles, 3 times a week. I've done it on and off for over 30 years and always enjoyed it

When I started Peating I'd start the day with a big bowl of porridge made with soya milk (later skimmed with virgin CO) and I loved it. Of course I immediately stopped using soya products and switched to whole milk. I also started drinking lots of semi-skimmed milk and freshly squeezed orange juice. I also started taking pregnenalone (100mgs) and DHEA 95mgs) every day. I stopped the running and didn't try to limit calories, just concentrated on eating only Peat friendly foods.

It was a revelation to me, I could feel the warmth generating in my body, my sleep quality improved dramatically, both in depth and duration. I could feel the hormones kicking in.

Of course you know what's coming next....weight gain. I weighed myself a month in and I was up to 92.5 and people had started joking about my 'gut'. I immediately switched to skimmed milk and cut my calorie intake but the weight wasn't shifting. I also ditched the porridge. I emailed Pete who was gracious enough to respond to me within an hour in response to my question about calorie restriction and weight loss. His reply didn't really answer my question, very open ended, I'm sure you all know what I mean. I've read some of the weight loss threads on this forum and to simplify it seems that there are 2 main opinions, either to just concentrate on boosting and maintaining your metabolism or to restrict calories but only used 'Peat approved' foods.

Anyway, after spending a month cutting calories on PA foods (2000 per day) I decided that I needed another approach. I've cut my calorie intake down to 1600 (PA foods), added Acetyl L Carnite and Alpha Lipoic Acid to my diet along with CLA. I've also started weight training as a replacement for running. The pounds are now falling off and as I type this I'm just under 88kg's.

I still feel better than I did before peating but not as good as when my metabolism was really pumping but I had to make a choice. If I had waited another month or two I have no doubt that I would have been approaching 100kgs which would have left me a mountain to climb. I have lost 22kg's before but I have no intention of needing to do that again.

My plan is to get down to 82kg's on PA foods and weight training (I'll still have a little visible body fat at 82kg) and then try to rebuild my metabolism slowly. Increasing Fructose intake, maintaining high protein, cutting the weight loss supplements that are tilting me towards a fat burning metabolism (my metabolism is slow) and switching to the ones that assist in creating a sugar burning one. I think that will be an important time. My metabolism will be shot and it will take great care and patience to not bloat once I up my food intake again.

Does anybody have any experience or thoughts about this plan? I will say in advance that I am determined to maintain my current course until I get down to 82kg which I figure will give me some room to experiment with without leaving me at all skinny.

 

[Forsythia]

This was very painful to read. I hope it works for you, but the chances are very, very small. You're dieting and dieting rarely works long term. You have gone from one extreme to the other. Your weight was going up and up (and healing your hormones and metabolism along the way), so what do you do? You go to the opposite extreme and severely restrict (1600 calories!). Eventually the pendulum will swing back to the other side again. You need to find balance. You went from gaining weight to losing weight. Where was the balance? Where was the maintenance? Why couldn't you maintain your weight, even at a high weight? Why did you keep gaining? What was your body telling you? If you couldn't maintain your weight, why do you think you will once your crash diet is over? You need to find the answers to these questions. Learn to eat to maintain your weight (neither gaining or losing). When you have learned to maintain your weight, and your metabolism is working at a high level and your hormones are in a state of balance, then learn how to make SMALL changes to your diet to SLOWLY lose weight. Live and learn my friend.

 

[Tarmander]

I would add in here that 1600 calories was the diet that the men were on in the Minnesota starvation experiment. I have been doing the Peat thing for about eight months. I had read him before that, but I really committed last December. In that time I have gone from 165 pounds to almost 200. That is 35lbs!

The funny thing is, I feel less self conscious now then I ever did when I was skinnier. When I was small and lean, just a little fat here and there seemed unsightly. Which I think you can relate to when you are talking in increments of 2-3kgs.

Also, I would point out the frivolity of using weight as a metric for health, body composition, or anything. If you found out that you were losing this weight and 30% of it was coming from fat, and the other 70% from bone and muscle density, would that change your perspective? Because fat is not very dense as far as tissue goes, which makes weight a very crappy indicator for anything.

Others can chime in on this, but my experience is that Peat and the philosophy really urge commitment. You cannot dip one toe in and start to think about metabolism while being shackled to the old "no pain no gain," "skinny is beauty and health," and "Restrict Restrict Restrict." Just go for it man. Eat! Gain some weight if your body wants to do that. Let go. Let your indicators not be a scale, but happiness, satisfaction, the letting go of small worries, contentment with small things, appreciation, motivation to go do things, and strength of personality.

If you focus on these things, you will be headed in the right direction because they are the most complex and require an excess of energy that people surviving can barely muster.

 

[EIRE24]

I would add in here that 1600 calories was the diet that the men were on in the Minnesota starvation experiment. I have been doing the Peat thing for about eight months. I had read him before that, but I really committed last December. In that time I have gone from 165 pounds to almost 200. That is 35lbs!

The funny thing is, I feel less self conscious now then I ever did when I was skinnier. When I was small and lean, just a little fat here and there seemed unsightly. Which I think you can relate to when you are talking in increments of 2-3kgs.

Also, I would point out the frivolity of using weight as a metric for health, body composition, or anything. If you found out that you were losing this weight and 30% of it was coming from fat, and the other 70% from bone and muscle density, would that change your perspective? Because fat is not very dense as far as tissue goes, which makes weight a very crappy indicator for anything.

Others can chime in on this, but my experience is that Peat and the philosophy really urge commitment. You cannot dip one toe in and start to think about metabolism while being shackled to the old "no pain no gain," "skinny is beauty and health," and "Restrict Restrict Restrict." Just go for it man. Eat! Gain some weight if your body wants to do that. Let go. Let your indicators not be a scale, but happiness, satisfaction, the letting go of small worries, contentment with small things, appreciation, motivation to go do things, and strength of personality.

If you focus on these things, you will be headed in the right direction because they are the most complex and require an excess of energy that people surviving can barely muster.

Wow, great post! I could take some of that advice on board for sure. Do you use any supplements or thyroid along with the food since you have committed to peat style fully?

 

[Tarmander]

I would add in here that 1600 calories was the diet that the men were on in the Minnesota starvation experiment. I have been doing the Peat thing for about eight months. I had read him before that, but I really committed last December. In that time I have gone from 165 pounds to almost 200. That is 35lbs!

The funny thing is, I feel less self conscious now then I ever did when I was skinnier. When I was small and lean, just a little fat here and there seemed unsightly. Which I think you can relate to when you are talking in increments of 2-3kgs.

Also, I would point out the frivolity of using weight as a metric for health, body composition, or anything. If you found out that you were losing this weight and 30% of it was coming from fat, and the other 70% from bone and muscle density, would that change your perspective? Because fat is not very dense as far as tissue goes, which makes weight a very crappy indicator for anything.

Others can chime in on this, but my experience is that Peat and the philosophy really urge commitment. You cannot dip one toe in and start to think about metabolism while being shackled to the old "no pain no gain," "skinny is beauty and health," and "Restrict Restrict Restrict." Just go for it man. Eat! Gain some weight if your body wants to do that. Let go. Let your indicators not be a scale, but happiness, satisfaction, the letting go of small worries, contentment with small things, appreciation, motivation to go do things, and strength of personality.

If you focus on these things, you will be headed in the right direction because they are the most complex and require an excess of energy that people surviving can barely muster.

Wow, great post! I could take some of that advice on board for sure. Do you use any supplements or thyroid along with the food since you have committed to peat style fully?

I have not jumped on the thyroid band wagon yet. That is something I want to do last, similar with progesterone and pregnenalone. I know these are powerful and others have gotten good results, but I want to make sure there are no other gains to be made with supplementation and that type of thing. As far as supplements go, I take lots of gelatin, some BCAAs, some Niacinamide, and some vitamin K, not huge amounts. When I first started, I added in all the supplements: A, E, K, D, B1, B2, B3, taurine...basically the whole banana. It caused such a stress reaction, I could barely sleep, but was exhausted all day. I got sick too.

Since then I have taken it slow, and it has been great. My benchmark is sleep. As long as I am sleeping, I am okay. As soon as that starts to get messed with, I back off.

 

[EIRE24]

Cool! That's good to know. I am yet to jump in fully and was wondering about supps and thyroid. Did you have any skin issues with acne or flaky skin? Also, what was your calorie intake like?

 

[Tarmander]

Cool! That's good to know. I am yet to jump in fully and was wondering about supps and thyroid. Did you have any skin issues with acne or flaky skin? Also, what was your calorie intake like?

If you look at my old posts there is a post in How much do you spend on food where I did a print out on Chron O Meter. 3500 cals a dayish. Skin is looking pretty good.

 

[Brian]

The "knocking it down" method only really seems to work in youth in the context of an ideal hormonal profile with very high DHT. When I was in my early 20's if I under-ate I would have very defined abs at the end of a couple of weeks. If I do that now nothing happens, except I get cold, low pulse, and depressed.

One thing to keep in mind is that rapid weight gain almost always includes a large amount of water retention. The retention is usually a symptom of high estrogen along with serotonin and prolactin. Reducing food intake might reduce water retention, because it also reduces endotoxin to a degree if you weren't digesting your food well.

In my opinion a better general weight loss strategy for someone with imbalanced hormones and poor digestion is to eat around 80 grams of low tryptophan protein (mostly from shrimp, gelatin and maybe some casein+BCAA's) and an abundance of carbs from fruit, fruit juice, potatoes, and rice with a little coconut oil. Supplementing with some oysters, egg yolks, and taurine/glycine, maybe some A,D,E,K. When I eat this way I notice serotonin drops fast and water weight drops quickly too.

My guess is your weight gain was caused by poor protein digestion and utilization of methionine/tryptophan leading to increased serotonin and endotoxin, which for me leads to major water retention and probably some fat gain.

I would try something similar to this before lowering calories as low as 1600. Although around 2500 is probably fine. Around 500g carbs, 80-90 grams protein, 40 grams fat.

 

[Giraffe]

I had been fighting overweight unsuccessfully for a couple of years. What finally helped me was to increase my protein intake to 1 g/kg body weight, reduce starches (especially grains) and sweets and to listen to my body. Sometimes I feel very hungry, but after a few mouthful I am full. When I eat out, I sometimes ask the waiter to wrap the leftovers. Some people laught about my doggy bag. So what? - When I get hungry again, I have my doggy bag. :)

I noticed that there are times when it is very easy for me to loose a few pounds, while at other times it seems very hard. So when it was/got hard, I decided to aim at maintaining weight. I found that a couple of weeks / months later it was easy to loose a few (more) pounds.

 

[Sheik]

Have you also been known as The Reverend Fred Gherkin, by chance?

 

[javacody]

According to what I've read on this forum (from haidut), that is waaaay too much DHEA.

He advocates 5mg doses up to 3 times per day (max 15 mg).

I feel good even just taking 5mg.

95 mg will likely get turned mostly into more estrogen.

Search the forum for DHEA and read what haidut says. It's been invaluable to me.

I wonder how much of your weight gain wasn't simple fluid retention because you are boosting your estrogen levels?

 

[Greg says]

Discovering the research of Ray Peat has been an education to me. I've always liked people who call things how they see them rather than buckle under pressure and 'Toe the Line', especially when what they say is new and makes sense.

Does anybody have any experience or thoughts about this plan? I will say in advance that I am determined to maintain my current course until I get down to 82kg which I figure will give me some room to experiment with without leaving me at all skinny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Laj7g5tfD-s

I experienced weight gain. But I think it may have been necessary. You may find something helpful in this video. I think there is such an indoctrinated mindset as to what is being truly healthy or just looking fit (which we are indoctrinated to believe is what a healthy body should look like).

"An increased intake of calcium is the single most important nutritional thing for losing weight." - RP

Definitely too much DHEA. Try taking 5mg (with a bit of butter) with some zinc and B6.

 

[tara]

Does anybody have any experience or thoughts about this plan? I will say in advance that I am determined to maintain my current course until I get down to 82kg which I figure will give me some room to experiment with without leaving me at all skinny.

Well, since you ask ...:)
And in the understanding that I am not an expert.
Much good comment above.

The likely effects of a 1600 cal diet include reduced base metabolism (may include reduced temperature of core and extremities), catabolism of lean tissue (if prolonged this can reduce the function of some organs), and an increased propensity to store fat once normal eating is resumed (and therefore more fat in the medium to long term). Other possible effects include possibly some slowing and reduced function of the digestive system, with potential for reduced absorption of important nutrients, and degradation of the gut barrier function, which helps protect against excessive absorption of endotoxin, etc, chronic increases in stress hormones, reduced capacity to metabolise carbohydrates, reduced capacity to recover from injuries increases in anxiety, depression, anger, etc.

Bear in mind that you probably don't/can't know what your current ideal healthy weight is, that the common presentations about the BMI scale are flawed, that common public calorie recommendations are usually flawed, and that normal calories for a man your age are of the order of 3000. If you consider 5kg over your lean weight to be excessive, then I would guess you are looking at it from a fashion viewpoint rather than a health viewpoint. If you have always restricted energy by diet or exercise, than you probably don't know where your body will stop gaining, start maintaining weight, and get on with restoring other functions.

I would expect severe calorie restriction to leave you with less room to experiment, rather than more. I would certainly not recommend adding thyroid supps into a state that is in severe energy deprivation.

If you do decide to go with an energy-restrictive policy, then I think it would be well worth considering the suggestions from posters above to try something more gentle, like 2500 cals, or seeing if you can find what maintenance looks like for a bit, and then see if you can gradually increase from there, and hope your metabolism rises with it.

Personally, I'm currently choosing to go after metabolic health over fashionable leanness, and assuming that withholding food when I am hungry will do more harm than good. My experience has been that when I got serious about this policy at the beginning of last year, I gradually gained weight all year, and then have been maintaining my weight since then (continuing to eat whenever I feel like it). I think I have gained some muscle in some areas, but I have not been able to exercise as much as I had been, so I've lost strength in some areas too. I have had significant improvement in some slow healing joint injuries that had resisted treatment for a couple of years. I have only had brief and trivial colds the last two winters, where previously they tended to drag on and drag me down (I also attribute this to retraining breathing). I am now heavier than fashionable, and closer to the trough in the BMI/mortality graphs than I was when I was in the 'ideal' BMI category. This has not resolved the health issue I came here for, but I have more reliable energy and temper, and I feel as though I spend a lot less time running on adrenaline. I am in cooey of your age and weight, female, and probably nowhere near as fit as you are.

I may or may not spontaneously gain or lose weight or fat, and I may or may not change my approach in the future.

You choose your own priorities. :)

 

[docall18]

Mate, i would defiantly quit both the Dhea & Pregnenolone. Both cause high estrogen and weight gain in a lot of guys, even at tiny doses.

Try a small amount of P5P B6 and some zinc. This will give you a dopamine/libido boost similar to preg/dhea, without so much estrogen.

To lower estrogen quickly DIM is good (Bioavailable Indolplex DIM is best).

 

[tara]

I'll add that except in cases of very clear and urgent hormione deficiencies, I tend to favour giving the body a chance to make good use of a nutritious diet (including generous macro and micronutrients) and supportive lifestyle factors (eg sleep, sunlight, breathing, appropriate movement) a chance before leaping into hormone supplements. If the body is deliberately down-regulating metabolism in order to survive malnutrition, it is risky to try to override it.
And when you've given food etc a chance for a bit, and think it's time to try hormonal tweaks, then there's probably a case for being quite cautious about not exceeding physiological doses.
Next time I try pregnenolone, I'm going to try smaller doses - can't remmeber exactly what I tried, but in the order of 30mg - which I think was too much for me. Some people seem to make good use of more, but caution suggests trying a little before using a lot. As said above, DHEA 95 mg seems over the top for anyone.