John McDougall Looks Awful

[tca300]

He said a number quite a bit higher. 28 BMI

People with more body fat as they age are healthier and live longer.

BMI is rather useless as it doesn't account for the lean mass ( muscle, bones, organs ) variability between humans. I have a friend who is my same height, less body fat and less muscle than me, but he weighs the exact same. His wrists are twice the size of mine, his bones are just much larger.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Andrew: Would you start with what you think the ideal body fat percentage should be?
Ray: I think it varies according to gender and age. For example, young women who are overweight have better outcome of breast cancer (a lower incidence of breast cancer) than those who are underweight.
Sarah: And what are you saying [as] young women?
Ray: In the 20's and 30's. And one of the greatest increases in cancer is occurring among women between the ages of 25 and the early 30's. It's tripled in the last 30 or 40 years in that age group. But because of that relationship it's better for a young woman to be on the plump side...
Andrew: With saturated fats...
Ray: Yeah, if it's a good diet. And then in older people, being somewhat leaner for women is reducing the risk of breast cancer. But in old people in general mortality is lower with heavier body weight. They just have a greater resistance to stresses. So you have to look at the individual, and their age and gender. And overall mortality goes down in old people who are slightly on the heavy side.
Andrew: So it's very much relative to age then. Age and gender then, because obviously that percentage will change.
Sarah: I thought you said that older people who are slightly more plump have...
Andrew: Yeah, he did...
Sarah: Have a more decreased mortality.
Ray: Yeah, same with increased cholesterol. And a slight increase in blood pressure in old age is good. Same thing with...
Andrew: What do you think that body fat percentage would be then? 20%? 24%?
Ray: I think a little higher.
Sarah: That's pretty low.
Andrew: That's too low, huh?
Sarah: I remember when I was 19 I had it measured at 19%
Andrew: Ah, ok.
Sarah: The person said, "I don't think you'd ever be able to get pregnant at 19%."
Andrew: So how about 30%?
Ray: Yeah, I think 30%.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Something else I’ve noticed. In old movies and photos, men were compact and thin.

But their life expectancy was much lower. And many died from heart disease.

I’m almost 60. When I was a kid, it was very common to hear of a kid’s dad who had a heart attack.

Now, people are living longer. There are tons of horribly unhealthy people who are old. But there are more healthy older people than ever before.

And they are NOT thin.

 

[gaze]

He said a number quite a bit higher. 28 BMI

People with more body fat as they age are healthier and live longer.

BMI and body fat are different
Edit: didn’t see this already acknowledged.

I think his interview makes sense. He’s talking about pregnancy for women. I think for a male he still prefers it a little lower

 

[gaze]

Andrew: Would you start with what you think the ideal body fat percentage should be?
Ray: I think it varies according to gender and age. For example, young women who are overweight have better outcome of breast cancer (a lower incidence of breast cancer) than those who are underweight.
Sarah: And what are you saying [as] young women?
Ray: In the 20's and 30's. And one of the greatest increases in cancer is occurring among women between the ages of 25 and the early 30's. It's tripled in the last 30 or 40 years in that age group. But because of that relationship it's better for a young woman to be on the plump side...
Andrew: With saturated fats...
Ray: Yeah, if it's a good diet. And then in older people, being somewhat leaner for women is reducing the risk of breast cancer. But in old people in general mortality is lower with heavier body weight. They just have a greater resistance to stresses. So you have to look at the individual, and their age and gender. And overall mortality goes down in old people who are slightly on the heavy side.
Andrew: So it's very much relative to age then. Age and gender then, because obviously that percentage will change.
Sarah: I thought you said that older people who are slightly more plump have...
Andrew: Yeah, he did...
Sarah: Have a more decreased mortality.
Ray: Yeah, same with increased cholesterol. And a slight increase in blood pressure in old age is good. Same thing with...
Andrew: What do you think that body fat percentage would be then? 20%? 24%?
Ray: I think a little higher.
Sarah: That's pretty low.
Andrew: That's too low, huh?
Sarah: I remember when I was 19 I had it measured at 19%
Andrew: Ah, ok.
Sarah: The person said, "I don't think you'd ever be able to get pregnant at 19%."
Andrew: So how about 30%?
Ray: Yeah, I think 30%.

Something else I’ve noticed. In old movies and photos, men were compact and thin.

But their life expectancy was much lower. And many died from heart disease.

I’m almost 60. When I was a kid, it was very common to hear of a kid’s dad who had a heart attack.

Now, people are living longer. There are tons of horribly unhealthy people who are old. But there are more healthy older people than ever before.

And they are NOT thin.

@haidut has numerous posts on the obesity paradox I was reading earlier, seems to hold up to the observational study

 

[ShotTrue]

@Kammas


Me: What do you think is the optimal body fat percentage for a male to have on his body for best health? I've heard that keeping body fat levels low, has a large impact on keeping estrogen low. Thank you!


Ray Peat: If thyroid function, DHEA and testosterone are good, keeping muscle mass up, I think fat will usually be around 20 to 22%.

How does this reconcile with the fact that women are more attracted to men with abs?

 

[kyle]

How does this reconcile with the fact that women are more attracted to men with abs?

You know abs were invented in the 80s?

 

[ShotTrue]

You know abs were invented in the 80s?

Im at work I cant see that vid right now :/

 

[baccheion]

Something else I’ve noticed. In old movies and photos, men were compact and thin.

But their life expectancy was much lower. And many died from heart disease.

I’m almost 60. When I was a kid, it was very common to hear of a kid’s dad who had a heart attack.

Now, people are living longer. There are tons of horribly unhealthy people who are old. But there are more healthy older people than ever before.

And they are NOT thin.

Heart issues are associated with lower testosterone. Fat around the middle is likely associated with the increase in cortisol + insulin that comes with age. Normalizing via thyroid/HPTA/metabolism and DHEA (+ pregnenolone), especially starting at 25, may buffer against such a situation.

Cortisol doesn't pack fat around the middle. Rather, it's biased against taking from that area when releasing fat stores.

Sometimes I think food sensitivities (there are tests to check) add to increased inflammation/cortisol/stress, lowering other hormones.

It's been said DHEA is the only hormone that declines with age. Others then follow, as it's a precursor. Even the runaway cortisol could explain lower progesterone. It's also been said aging occurs due to declining hormones (which happens largely due to accumulated stress/inflammation/cortisol/deficiencies) rather than vice versa.

 

[tca300]

How does this reconcile with the fact that women are more attracted to men with abs?

I dont know.. I have had the same question. I also dont feel good about myself unless I can visibly see my abs. It's a personal preference, and isn't influenced by others as I dont care what others think. I also find that red light, thyroid, DHEA, coffee, etc...... also have a much more noticeable effect when I'm leaner. At +20% bodyfat I can take 100mg of progesterone and notice nothing, but at 10-12% body fat even 9mg is very noticeable.

 

[matisvijs]

I think 'how you look' is often only a useful health metric in extreme cases - someone very overweight/underweight or very old looking for their age. Other than that you have old people that have a slight gut/average muscle mass for their age living to very old age and enjoying themselves and then you have the Hollywood celebrity trainers who look young in the face and have a killer body getting heart attacks at 52 (talking about Bob Harper here specifically).

 

[baccheion]

How does this reconcile with the fact that women are more attracted to men with abs?

Abs are related to testosterone (and estrogen). Looking at the study of males with only an aromatase deficiency, testosterone was higher and fat collected around the middle. Among males with only a 5-alpha reductase 2 deficiency, testosterone (+ estrogen) was higher and less around waist. A study checking for correlations found it only with testosterone when looking at presence of abs.

Testosterone increases insulin sensitivity, maybe due to associated downstream conversion to estrogens. DHT is associated with insulin resistance, though it could be due to the lowering of SHBG when insulin is increased (SHBG has the highest affinity for DHT, testosterone, then estrogens).

 

[ShotTrue]

Abs are related to testosterone (and estrogen). Looking at the study of males with only an aromatase deficiency, testosterone was higher and fat collected around the middle. Among males with only a 5-alpha reductase 2 deficiency, testosterone (+ estrogen) was higher and less around waist. A study checking for correlations found it only with testosterone when looking at presence of abs.

Testosterone increases insulin sensitivity, maybe due to associated downstream conversion to estrogens. DHT is associated with insulin resistance, though it could be due to the lowering of SHBG when insulin is increased (SHBG has the highest affinity for DHT, testosterone, then estrogens).

Interesting. When my estrogen is too high or too low it creates abdominal obestiy for me. Quite annoying because when I'm healthy it's easy for me to get abs, and when hormones are imblanced it's impossible and im getting judged for something I normally fix ...

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have high testosterone but I still have a bit of a paunch.

 

[ShotTrue]

I have high testosterone but I still have a bit of a paunch.

Test injections done by scientists increased bodyfat by 1% , basically high test leads to high appetite and more estrogen from conversion, so its not extremely easy to have abs just based on test levels

 

[ecstatichamster]

Test injections done by scientists increased bodyfat by 1% , basically high test leads to high appetite and more estrogen from conversion, so its not extremely easy to have abs just based on test levels

this seems to be my experience. Aromatization of testosterone -- I have measured high estrone in a blood test. I don't have any problems with gyneco or anything. I do have a big appetite.

 

[matisvijs]

Test injections done by scientists increased bodyfat by 1% , basically high test leads to high appetite and more estrogen from conversion, so its not extremely easy to have abs just based on test levels

Hmm, all the studies I've read where they gave T injections (as high as 600mg/week) showed reduced bodyfat. And that was without any special estrogen minimization methods. Do you recall what research was that you're referencing? Kind of goes against what I knew about it.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Hmm, all the studies I've read where they gave T injections (as high as 600mg/week) showed reduced bodyfat. And that was without any special estrogen minimization methods. Do you recall what research was that you're referencing? Kind of goes against what I knew about it.

Indeed.

Effect of Testosterone Treatment on Body Composition and Muscle Strength in Men Over 65 Years of Age 1
As men age, serum testosterone concentrations decrease, the percentage of body mass that is fat increases, the percentage of lean body mass decreases, and muscle strength decreases. Because these changes are similar to those that occur in hypogonadal men, we hypothesized that increasing the serum testosterone concentration of men over 65 yr of age to that in young men would decrease their fat mass, increase their lean mass, and increase their muscle strength.

We randomized 108 men over 65 yr of age to wear either a testosterone patch or a placebo patch in a double blind study for 36 months. We measured body composition by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry and muscle strength by dynamometer before and during treatment. Ninety-six men completed the entire 36-month protocol.

Fat mass decreased (−3.0 ± 0.5 kg) in the testosterone-treated men during the 36 months of treatment, which was significantly different (P = 0.001) from the decrease (−0.7± 0.5 kg) in the placebo-treated men. Lean mass increased (1.9 ± 0.3 kg) in the testosterone-treated men, which was significantly different (P < 0.001) from that (0.2 ± 0.2 kg) in the placebo-treated men. The decrease in fat mass in the testosterone-treated men was principally in the arms (−0.7 ± 0.1 kg; P < 0.001 compared to the placebo group) and legs (−1.1 ± 0.2 kg; P < 0.001), and the increase in lean mass was principally in the trunk (1.9 ± 0.3 kg; P < 0.001). The change in strength of knee extension and flexion at 60° and 180° angular velocity during treatment, however, was not significantly different between the two groups.

We conclude that increasing the serum testosterone concentrations of normal men over 65 yr of age to the midnormal range for young men decreased fat mass, principally in the arms and legs, and increased lean mass, principally in the trunk, but did not increase the strength of knee extension and flexion, as measured by dynamometer.

 

[matisvijs]

Indeed.

Effect of Testosterone Treatment on Body Composition and Muscle Strength in Men Over 65 Years of Age 1
As men age, serum testosterone concentrations decrease, the percentage of body mass that is fat increases, the percentage of lean body mass decreases, and muscle strength decreases. Because these changes are similar to those that occur in hypogonadal men, we hypothesized that increasing the serum testosterone concentration of men over 65 yr of age to that in young men would decrease their fat mass, increase their lean mass, and increase their muscle strength.

We randomized 108 men over 65 yr of age to wear either a testosterone patch or a placebo patch in a double blind study for 36 months. We measured body composition by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry and muscle strength by dynamometer before and during treatment. Ninety-six men completed the entire 36-month protocol.

Fat mass decreased (−3.0 ± 0.5 kg) in the testosterone-treated men during the 36 months of treatment, which was significantly different (P = 0.001) from the decrease (−0.7± 0.5 kg) in the placebo-treated men. Lean mass increased (1.9 ± 0.3 kg) in the testosterone-treated men, which was significantly different (P < 0.001) from that (0.2 ± 0.2 kg) in the placebo-treated men. The decrease in fat mass in the testosterone-treated men was principally in the arms (−0.7 ± 0.1 kg; P < 0.001 compared to the placebo group) and legs (−1.1 ± 0.2 kg; P < 0.001), and the increase in lean mass was principally in the trunk (1.9 ± 0.3 kg; P < 0.001). The change in strength of knee extension and flexion at 60° and 180° angular velocity during treatment, however, was not significantly different between the two groups.

We conclude that increasing the serum testosterone concentrations of normal men over 65 yr of age to the midnormal range for young men decreased fat mass, principally in the arms and legs, and increased lean mass, principally in the trunk, but did not increase the strength of knee extension and flexion, as measured by dynamometer.

Yeah, that's what I recall seeing in these studies. Kind of missed the part that the muscle gain was mainly in the trunk, lol. Kind of have the urge to re-read these studies to see whether getting a jacked butt is consistent across all of them

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

It’s not healthy to be ripped and old. I think in an email with @tca300 Ray said the ideal body fat percentage for all the hormones to be functioning at max capacity was around 20 percent. Ray looks somewhere close to tht number.

I agree. Being too thin is bad, especially if one's old. But there is a difference between some stomach fat and bloating. Bloating, imo, isn't healthy under any circumstance. It indicates gas/ bacterial overgrowth/ inflammation of the internal organs. I've seen people who have some belly fat, but their stomach is still relatively flat.