Implementing Low-fat Diet And Needing Advice

[DanielleB]

@DanielleB
Usually fats in a natural food are there to help absorb nutrients, like in milk and for feeling of satiety.
Adding coconut oil in diet to lose weight is an effective method an sich, but I don't see the wisdom of also tempering with / removing all the fat from the milk and also removing cholesterol a steroid precursor.
I think when satiety is not reached or not enough energy from fat intake is sensed by the body, this can trigger starvation reactions and disrupt the metabolism.
I therefore hope you combine some fat with a meal, be it coconut or butter.

I do realize that fats can be beneficial in the diet but many members here have had great success by cutting them out drastically to lose weight. I'm not sure by exactly what mechanisms the VLF triggers weight loss and stokes metabolism but even Ray advocates for a low fat diet. I have maybe a 1-2 tsp a day of coconut oil but as I continue to experiment, I will, of course, adjust as I see necessary.

 

[raypeatclips]

I do realize that fats can be beneficial in the diet but many members here have had great success by cutting them out drastically to lose weight. I'm not sure by exactly what mechanisms the VLF triggers weight loss and stokes metabolism but even Ray advocates for a low fat diet. I have maybe a 1-2 tsp a day of coconut oil but as I continue to experiment, I will, of course, adjust as I see necessary.

I have seen Peat say various times figures between 20-33% of the diet as fat, and up to 50% as fat from a source such as hydrogenated coconut oil would be safe. He may consider low fat diet for weight loss. But he certainly doesn't advocate a low fat diet full stop IMO.

 

[DanielleB]

I have seen Peat say various times figures between 20-33% of the diet as fat, and up to 50% as fat from a source such as hydrogenated coconut oil would be safe. He may consider low fat diet for weight loss. But he certainly doesn't advocate a low fat diet full stop IMO.

This is what I was implying in my previous reply to General Orange, he advocates for a lower fat diet for weight loss, I never stated that he advocates for a VLF. I realize that VLF may not be healthy long-term but other forum members have implemented it for several months with great results, which is my goal as well.

 

[Jon]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. You have so many posters on your thread I just didn't have time to read through all of it lol.

Your labs actually look pretty awesome. Seems to me you have a pretty high metabolism. I have an inkling you may be undereating. Most of us who are health conscious and body conscious (with a focus on body composition and aesthetics) tend to under eat because the worst thing in the world to us is gaining fat. sounds like you rode a similar roller coaster to myself in terms of chronic dieting leading to some nasty physical and psychological damage.

Undereating causes edema. This is often why people blow a diet that abides by calorie restriction, because when they're beginning to lose weight their body swells to keep the adipose full of water and hydrolize fat stores for movement to he blood stream to be utilized for energy (ketosis). People misread this edema as them gaining fat and their metabolism slowing (i.e. Gaining fat on less calories) so they abandon their diet and binge eat to only make themselves fatter than they were before they tried to diet.

I learned through documenting every bit of my leaning phases that I gain 1-3lbs of water for every 0.5-1.5lbs of fat I lose. Nowadays if I step on the scale in the morning during a fat loss phase and see I've shot up 1-3lbs overnight and I know I've stuck to my deficit then I know I've lost bodyfat and will see a new low in the next 1-4 days.

All this being said, you may be losing weight but thinking you're not because you're seeing edema take place (looking smoother, less definition in the mirror, weight stays stagnant or goes up) and so you eat even less which worsens edema, or you eat more which causes a shift in hormones and a refil of glycogen which causes water weight gain, or you add in electrolyte supplements like minerals and salt which further **** with your water retention and you're left spinning your wheels.

My suggestions are these:

1) identify your goals for health, training, and body composition (I know they seem like the same things but they're not indicative of one another)

2) Find a true maintenance calorie level for your body (Katch-Mcardle formula is most accurate and my personal go to) eat at this calorie level for 14 days MINIMUM

3) stop your supplements until weight and diet are consistent for atleast two weeks. You need to eliminate factors that are skewing your results. In my opinion supplements are rarely ever needed for proper health to be restored, and often times are just a hinderance.

4) reduce your weight training days to 3-4 days a week. You don't need more than this and taking less than 48hrs between sessions can suppress testosterone. You may even need to stop weight training for the two weeks you're eating at maintenance as you have most likely accumulated systemic stress and damage you aren't aware of because your body is masking it with endorphins. I know this from my personal experience, a two week break from dieting and training opened my eyes wide lol.

5) learn how true progress is made in the gym. Hypertrophy is mainly driven by weight bearing muscles going through a full range of motion and by increasing the total volume (work) that muscles undertakes. Progressive Overlaod done in a Dual Linear Progression Scheme is the tried and true method of choice for all professional weight training athletes who aren't doping.

6) stop the cardio, or atleast keep it non intense and just shoot for 10,000 steps a day. Cardio causes more systemic stress than weights do. 10,000 steps a day with correct posture has been shown to have health benefit in terms of cholesterol synthesis and testosterone enhancement.

7) Eat like a woman. Women GENERALLY need more fat than men. My wife has similar stats and bloodwork to you and she is completely out of whack on low fat. As a man I eat 0.3grams of fat per lb of LEAN MASS, but my wife eats around 0.8-1gram of fat per pound of lean mass! Women make more growth hormone, they utilize more fat than men do in a healthy state, men and women in most situations should have slightly different macro intakes. Women have been shown to not do as well on high carb diets, and fructose is only needed in very small amounts. Protein needs are the same as men; 0.8grams per lb of lean body mass from 80% animal sources is a minimum for active men and women.

8) Most importantly, listen to your body and follow suit! Pushing yourself to progress in health and in life is a must but it's necessary to stop the train at the station and stretch your legs regularly. Drop the "I have to force my way to health" mentality and realize your body is sending you signals in the form of cravings, pain, fatigue, and anxiety to get you to realize what it needs and what you should avoid.

hope this helps! If you have any questions I'm alway around :)

 

[Jon]

Also I forgot to mention that increasing your basal metabolic rate while losing weight is only only going to happen if you are effectively recompositioning your body i.e. Gaining muscle while losing fat, which is absolutely possible, but difficult to do successfully. And even so, you would not feel your metabolic rate raising while in a calorie deficit because you'll still be in ketosis until you stop dieting and eat at a calorie maintenance or surplus. The act of eating in a calorie deficit itself causes the thyroid to be suppressed and stress hormones to rise so you'll have all the signs and symptoms of hypo even if you don't normally have hypo symptoms with sufficient calories.

 

[DanielleB]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. You have so many posters on your thread I just didn't have time to read through all of it lol.

Your labs actually look pretty awesome. Seems to me you have a pretty high metabolism. I have an inkling you may be undereating. Most of us who are health conscious and body conscious (with a focus on body composition and aesthetics) tend to under eat because the worst thing in the world to us is gaining fat. sounds like you rode a similar roller coaster to myself in terms of chronic dieting leading to some nasty physical and psychological damage.

Undereating causes edema. This is often why people blow a diet that abides by calorie restriction, because when they're beginning to lose weight their body swells to keep the adipose full of water and hydrolize fat stores for movement to he blood stream to be utilized for energy (ketosis). People misread this edema as them gaining fat and their metabolism slowing (i.e. Gaining fat on less calories) so they abandon their diet and binge eat to only make themselves fatter than they were before they tried to diet.

I learned through documenting every bit of my leaning phases that I gain 1-3lbs of water for every 0.5-1.5lbs of fat I lose. Nowadays if I step on the scale in the morning during a fat loss phase and see I've shot up 1-3lbs overnight and I know I've stuck to my deficit then I know I've lost bodyfat and will see a new low in the next 1-4 days.

All this being said, you may be losing weight but thinking you're not because you're seeing edema take place (looking smoother, less definition in the mirror, weight stays stagnant or goes up) and so you eat even less which worsens edema, or you eat more which causes a shift in hormones and a refil of glycogen which causes water weight gain, or you add in electrolyte supplements like minerals and salt which further **** with your water retention and you're left spinning your wheels.

My suggestions are these:

1) identify your goals for health, training, and body composition (I know they seem like the same things but they're not indicative of one another)

2) Find a true maintenance calorie level for your body (Katch-Mcardle formula is most accurate and my personal go to) eat at this calorie level for 14 days MINIMUM

3) stop your supplements until weight and diet are consistent for atleast two weeks. You need to eliminate factors that are skewing your results. In my opinion supplements are rarely ever needed for proper health to be restored, and often times are just a hinderance.

4) reduce your weight training days to 3-4 days a week. You don't need more than this and taking less than 48hrs between sessions can suppress testosterone. You may even need to stop weight training for the two weeks you're eating at maintenance as you have most likely accumulated systemic stress and damage you aren't aware of because your body is masking it with endorphins. I know this from my personal experience, a two week break from dieting and training opened my eyes wide lol.

5) learn how true progress is made in the gym. Hypertrophy is mainly driven by weight bearing muscles going through a full range of motion and by increasing the total volume (work) that muscles undertakes. Progressive Overlaod done in a Dual Linear Progression Scheme is the tried and true method of choice for all professional weight training athletes who aren't doping.

6) stop the cardio, or atleast keep it non intense and just shoot for 10,000 steps a day. Cardio causes more systemic stress than weights do. 10,000 steps a day with correct posture has been shown to have health benefit in terms of cholesterol synthesis and testosterone enhancement.

7) Eat like a woman. Women GENERALLY need more fat than men. My wife has similar stats and bloodwork to you and she is completely out of whack on low fat. As a man I eat 0.3grams of fat per lb of LEAN MASS, but my wife eats around 0.8-1gram of fat per pound of lean mass! Women make more growth hormone, they utilize more fat than men do in a healthy state, men and women in most situations should have slightly different macro intakes. Women have been shown to not do as well on high carb diets, and fructose is only needed in very small amounts. Protein needs are the same as men; 0.8grams per lb of lean body mass from 80% animal sources is a minimum for active men and women.

8) Most importantly, listen to your body and follow suit! Pushing yourself to progress in health and in life is a must but it's necessary to stop the train at the station and stretch your legs regularly. Drop the "I have to force my way to health" mentality and realize your body is sending you signals in the form of cravings, pain, fatigue, and anxiety to get you to realize what it needs and what you should avoid.

hope this helps! If you have any questions I'm alway around :)

Jon, thank you for the response!

To address a few things you mentioned in your reply:

My TSH is actually low which, because I don't have the T4, T3, and reverse T3 levels from the labs, which could very we indicate that my thyroid hormones are too high and suppressing the thyroid. So unfortunately, just by looking at the TSH, it's hard to form a complete picture of what's actually happening with my thyroid. All I know is that I have hypo symptoms in addition to the weight gain so I'm hard-pressed to believe it'a JUST undereating alone.

HOWEVER, as you read my background where I have struggled with numerous restrictive diets and low calorie diets while training hard, it could very well be that I may have dug myself into a hole with undereating for so long which in turn suppressed thyroid and metabolism to get me to where I find myself currently.

I am very much in aggreance with you though about cutting out supplements for the time being so that there aren't as many variables that could just add confusion. I really want to just try sticking with a wholesome and nutritious Peat diet first to try and overcome the health issues.

In regards to cardio, I'm not doing any other than walking so luckily that won't increase cortisol. I also agree that weight training should be kept to a 3-4 times a week maximum.

Going VLF has seemed to be quite beneficial in weight loss for several forum members, of which, a few were women as well. In fact, a member, Walking_In_Aus commented on this thread touting the benefits of a VLF diet and how well it worked for her. It seems that going VLF or at least low fat for a few months increases PUFA depletion which stokes metabolism and aids weight loss. Where did you read that high carb diets don't work for women as there are quite a few women in this forum who swear by high carb, low fat diets? Just curious if you have any research showing this.

I do have a feeling I may be slightly undereating still but have tried calculating my BMR through different sites and always get different answers, plus, I thought that one is supposed to base their caloric needs on a TDEE calculation as opposed to the BMR because the BMR is only the caloric needs of the body when completely at rest and it doesn't take into account one's daily activities which seems it would set you up for chronic umdereating if the BMR was all you based your calorie intake on. I will try the formula for BMR that you mentioned though and see what calculations I get!

 

[Jon]

Consuming fructose-sweetened, not glucose-sweetened, beverages increases visceral adiposity and lipids and decreases insulin sensitivity in overweight/obese humans

It's been awhile since I've read the study but the basics are they had groups of men and women who either consumed fructose spiked beverages or glucose spiked beverages and all were metabolically compromised. The men and women faired terribly with fructose and women had the worst reactions but men actually became healthier in the glucose group while women still did not do great.

I will amend my statement to women don't need as much carbs as men and need a higher ratio of fat to carbs than men do with a much smaller intake of fructose.

The calorie formula I suggested first finds your bmr by using your bodyfat percentage and weight, then applies an activity multiplier to your bmr to get your TDEE.

I have other studies on glucose can fructose if you want em :)

 

[DanielleB]

Consuming fructose-sweetened, not glucose-sweetened, beverages increases visceral adiposity and lipids and decreases insulin sensitivity in overweight/obese humans

It's been awhile since I've read the study but the basics are they had groups of men and women who either consumed fructose spiked beverages or glucose spiked beverages and all were metabolically compromised. The men and women faired terribly with fructose and women had the worst reactions but men actually became healthier in the glucose group while women still did not do great.

I will amend my statement to women don't need as much carbs as men and need a higher ratio of fat to carbs than men do with a much smaller intake of fructose.

The calorie formula I suggested first finds your bmr by using your bodyfat percentage and weight, then applies an activity multiplier to your bmr to get your TDEE.

I have other studies on glucose can fructose if you want em :)

An interesting study but I think the problem with this particular study is two-fold:

Firstly, the focus was on the glucose and fructose sweetened drinks, we aren't told what the rest of their diet consists of during this time so it's hard to draw any conclusions in arguing that fructose and glucose are the enemies as far as weight gain is concerned. What quality of foods they were consuming in addition to the drinks along with macronutrient breakdown would have given a much more conclusive picture to help us understand what was going on here. Ray has mentioned and studies have shown that in the face of higher fat intake and even minimal starch intake alongside glucose and fructose, can and often does increase fat gain.

Secondly, if the drinks were a large source of their total calories, liquids are known to slow metabolism so that factor alone could have contributed in the fat gain, not just the fructose and glucose they contained.

All in all, that study seems to have too many unknown variables to properly conclude that it ws the fructose and glucose alone that caused the fat gain. It also seems that Peat makes it quite clear that the carbs from fruits are superior because of the combination with natural fiber that helps the body accumulate and use the glucose for energy. I would be skeptical about any diet containing any processed or incomeplete sources of fructose or glucose as that seems too far from natural and thus, the body won't be able to adequately process or utilize it

I looked up the formula and plugged in my calculations but it only gave me my bmr, didn't see a TDEE calculator anywhere on the site...

 

[Jon]

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan...45c&mKey=3eb8314a-ad3b-4c19-a614-2013255f7f19

Though this study showed no correlation between women burning more fat and doing better during a marathon, the study did show that women had a significantly low RER which is indicative of higher fat metabolism. Of course this is during strenuous endurance exercise but the fact that women were able to respirate less than men at least tells me that they burned fat easier under the same circumstances.

 

[Jon]

I agree with you that the study left much to be desired, but how do you explain the males getting healthier in the glucose group? The high visceral fat gain in the fructose group? And women fairing badly in both? Also they were obviously in a calorie surplus so they were going to gain weight reguardless of macro composition.

I only suggest what I suggest based on studies and personal experience. By no means am I saying I'm right, just offering a perspective you may not have gotten yet.

Here's one: A Simple and Accurate TDEE Calculator (and How to Use It) you'll have to scroll down a bit

 

[MissRed]

...In regards to milk choice, I was drinking full fat raw milk from a local farmer with the good digestive results. However, since going VLF, the raw milk is out for it's fat content. Therefore, I get the Fairlife fat free milk. It's not organic or grass fed but it's lactose free and I have issues digesting milk since my metabolism is compromised so I can't offer much in the way of recommendations there, sorry.

You know, in addition to the grass fed vs fat free debate going on in my head, I was wondering about lactose. I thought I read that Peat wanted us to get lactose, for some reason. I was then wondering about digestive enzymes LOL like lactaid. Do you remember seeing anything about lactose?
BTW how are you doing on the VLF? I really need to heal my thyroid so am watching others while I try things on myself.

 

[tara]

ANyone have insights as to whether type of potato makes a whit of difference?

Some varieties are more starchy, some more waxy. In general, older ones are more starchy,. So if you have particular trouble with starch, then the younger or waxier varieties may be easier, or easier to start with?
Otherwise, I'd say try a variety and see what tastes good and works well for you.

I do realize that fats can be beneficial in the diet but many members here have had great success by cutting them out drastically to lose weight. I'm not sure by exactly what mechanisms the VLF triggers weight loss and stokes metabolism but even Ray advocates for a low fat diet. I have maybe a 1-2 tsp a day of coconut oil but as I continue to experiment, I will, of course, adjust as I see necessary.

I'd consider anything under 20% calories from fat to be fairly low fat compared with much of the population, under 10% definitely low fat. For some people this would be too low. I can think of no reason for regular people to go below 5% for extended periods unless they have some unusual medical condition requiring it. Which would mean more than 10g fat/day.

Peat may have suggested lower fat diets sometimes for specific purposes, and sees sugars as good fuel for cellular energy production, but I don't think he's suggested most people should run on very low fat for extended periods? If you've seen him say that (eg less than 10% fat calories long term for most people), I'd be interested in seeing the quote. He generally seems to favour including at least some fat in meals to support good digestion and absorption of nutrition.

 

[jitsmonkey]

I have seen Peat say various times figures between 20-33% of the diet as fat, and up to 50% as fat from a source such as hydrogenated coconut oil would be safe. He may consider low fat diet for weight loss. But he certainly doesn't advocate a low fat diet full stop IMO.

You should speak for yourself not Ray.
If someone presented to him with proper pulse/temps/mood/labs/etc and that was attained through low fat he would in fact advocate for it
saying he's said from 20-50 and less for weight loss is an ENORMOUS range. And that's the point. If there's health, function and well being you can bet your bippy he'd advocate for it. Again.... its about conducting the experiment and making adjustments along the way. Not drawing a conclusion before hand making a narrative and keeping to the narrative.

 

[raypeatclips]

You should speak for yourself not Ray.
If someone presented to him with proper pulse/temps/mood/labs/etc and that was attained through low fat he would in fact advocate for it
saying he's said from 20-50 and less for weight loss is an ENORMOUS range. And that's the point. If there's health, function and well being you can bet your bippy he'd advocate for it. Again.... its about conducting the experiment and making adjustments along the way. Not drawing a conclusion before hand making a narrative and keeping to the narrative.

He didn't say 20-50 for weight loss he said it for just general diet. I got worrying symptoms when I went very low fat, and see more and more people running into problems after going low fat. I also see many people getting benefits from adding saturated fat to the diet, so I try to discourage people when I can from getting too extreme with the lowering of fat, but of course it is up to everyone.

 

[EIRE24]

Possibly too little fat as well as a deficiency in aldolase b which led to severe liver damage and massive bacteria overgrowth from all the fructose I was consuming. My bad experience is only applicable to myself as most have adequate aldolase b activity.

How did you clear up the liver damage and reduce the bacterial overgrowth?

 

[Kartoffel]

He didn't say 20-50 for weight loss he said it for just general diet. I got worrying symptoms when I went very low fat, and see more and more people running into problems after going low fat. I also see many people getting benefits from adding saturated fat to the diet, so I try to discourage people when I can from getting too extreme with the lowering of fat, but of course it is up to everyone.

He once told me in an email (about four years ago) that he thinks 30-35% are optimal, if it is mostly saturated. He also said that a diet that has 50-60% can be very good. He mentioned recently that he gets about 60g of fat per day.
Given that human milk contains more calories as fat than lactose, eating something between 30-50% fat sounds optimal. Volkheimer has shown that eating fat with starches significantly decreases the amount of persorbed starch particles, so including a decent portion of fat sounds reasonable especially when starch is a regular part of your diet.

 

[tca300]

How did you clear up the liver damage and reduce the bacterial overgrowth?

High protein, glycine, k2 for liver. Low iron ( bacteria need it to thrive ), adequate saturated fats, no foods or supplements that I dont digest very well, so very easy digestible foods, no fibers, in the beginning small amounts of antibiotics, and no fructose or starch. This seemed to work well for me.

 

[raypeatclips]

He once told me in an email (about four years ago) that he thinks 30-35% are optimal, if it is mostly saturated. He also said that a diet that has 50-60% can be very good. He mentioned recently that he gets about 60g of fat per day.
Given that human milk contains more calories as fat than lactose, eating something between 30-50% fat sounds optimal. Volkheimer has shown that eating fat with starches significantly decreases the amount of persorbed starch particles, so including a decent portion of fat sounds reasonable especially when starch is a regular part of your diet.

All good points, I recently asked him for his clarification on fat in the diet and he said same to me 30-35 percent but he said that up to 50 percent of the diet as fat is good IF it is from hydrogenated coconut oil. I assumed from this that anything else once you hit 50 of your fat source the pufa content would be too high (higher than the often mentioned 4g pufa limit?)

 

[DanielleB]

I agree with you that the study left much to be desired, but how do you explain the males getting healthier in the glucose group? The high visceral fat gain in the fructose group? And women fairing badly in both? Also they were obviously in a calorie surplus so they were going to gain weight reguardless of macro composition.

I only suggest what I suggest based on studies and personal experience. By no means am I saying I'm right, just offering a perspective you may not have gotten yet.

Here's one: A Simple and Accurate TDEE Calculator (and How to Use It) you'll have to scroll down a bit

I appreciate the responses and sources to look through :) At this point, it's just going to be trial and error through logging everything and noting what works for me and doesn't.

 

[DanielleB]

You know, in addition to the grass fed vs fat free debate going on in my head, I was wondering about lactose. I thought I read that Peat wanted us to get lactose, for some reason. I was then wondering about digestive enzymes LOL like lactaid. Do you remember seeing anything about lactose?
BTW how are you doing on the VLF? I really need to heal my thyroid so am watching others while I try things on myself.

I do think I remember reading a few threads about lactose being an important enzyme BUT in the face of a dairy intolerance, which for me is digestive upset/constipation, it would seem more prudent to still drink milk but the lactose-free kind if possible so I can still enjoy the nutritional benefits such as calcium. Adequate Calcium is a necessary factor in metabolism and healthy thyroid functioning as folks with low thyroid often have problems retaining calcium so they need more than someone who doesn't suffer from thyroid problems. Peat is a huge advocate of milk but in my opinion and experience, raw milk is best. I never had issues with raw milk so I know that the pasteurized milk is lacking the necessary enzymes and bacteria present in raw milk and that pasteurized milk is hard for me to digest because I have low stomach acid. So I will continue to drink the lactose free, fat-free milk for now for the nutritional benefits and when my metabolism is healed, I will hopefully be able drink any kind of milk...although I will always prefer raw

I have been implementing VLF strictly for the past week and have been consuming between 1800-1900 calories, my fat intake has hit an average of 8g per day, the highest was 15g, while trying to walk at least 20-30 minutes a day and doing 3 days of weight-lifting. So far, I've noticed no more bloating, energy is fantastic, I feel less hair-trigger emotional...like I can deal with stresses better than before AND the best part is my clothes are fitting looser and I'm looking smaller in the mirror! It's only been a week though so I'm kind of trying to contain my excitement by thinking that I may have hit the sweet spot for weight loss (yet...at least). I believe I will be starting a weekly VLF log here in the forums...I can let you know when I post it...probably not until it's been a full week which would be Sunday. Stay tuned! lol