Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tarmander]

I wanted to outline my own history with how much vitamin A I have done. I did liver once or twice a week for years...maybe like 5? 6? Long before I got interested in Peat. At a certain point in there, I decided that part of why I had belly fat might be because I needed more choline to detox my liver. So I did an ounce of liver every other day and maybe 6-10 egg yolks per day for a couple months. An expensive experiment that went nowhere.

So if anyone is going to benefit from this low A thing, it is probably me. I also was put on Accutane for 8 months when I was 16.

One thing I wanted to add about my experience thus far that I have not really fleshed out is that the benefits seem to come and go. The mental benefits seem to be permanent as long as I stick with the diet. But my vision will go from super sharp to super blurry on a daily basis. My skin will go from very white and soft to red, splotchy and sagging. I am not sure how correlated those are with my work, which involves a lot of driving, or staring at the computer which are both activities that generally wear me down. This to me would seem to lend credit to Smith's whole detox thing, but who knows what is really going on. I am reminded a bit about my experiment with high amounts of vitamin D. I had some amazing benefits, followed by some terrible breathing issues, and other problems.

 

[Tarmander]

Basically! Plus if everyone on a Ray Peat style of eating needs to eventually start using thyroid, what is the point of Peating? If you can't save your own thyroid through coffee, sugar, fruit, milk, oysters and liver?!

We all want explanations and a popular one around here is "this issue would be resolved upon bringing your metabolism up." Buuuuttt, the whole how you do that for someone with a chronically suppressed metabolism...well we haven't got that part down but at least we have an explanation...oh and lots of experiments to try that some fraction of the population said worked for them in a fuzzy kind of way.

 

[Blossom]

I wanted to outline my own history with how much vitamin A I have done. I did liver once or twice a week for years...maybe like 5? 6? Long before I got interested in Peat. At a certain point in there, I decided that part of why I had belly fat might be because I needed more choline to detox my liver. So I did an ounce of liver every other day and maybe 6-10 egg yolks per day for a couple months. An expensive experiment that went nowhere.

So if anyone is going to benefit from this low A thing, it is probably me. I also was put on Accutane for 8 months when I was 16.

One thing I wanted to add about my experience thus far that I have not really fleshed out is that the benefits seem to come and go. The mental benefits seem to be permanent as long as I stick with the diet. But my vision will go from super sharp to super blurry on a daily basis. My skin will go from very white and soft to red, splotchy and sagging. I am not sure how correlated those are with my work, which involves a lot of driving, or staring at the computer which are both activities that generally wear me down. This to me would seem to lend credit to Smith's whole detox thing, but who knows what is really going on. I am reminded a bit about my experiment with high amounts of vitamin D. I had some amazing benefits, followed by some terrible breathing issues, and other problems.

Thanks for the update @Tarmander.

The find the good days are pretty amazing. The average days are still really good and “detox” days for me are still much better than before and at this point they seem less frequent and less intense.

I’m far from an expert on detox and didn’t really believe in it before but I had a day last week where for the first time I was pretty certain it was detox. I tend to assume I’m just getting sick and I’m sure I have a lot of conventional medicine influence of minimizing symptoms (you’re not really sick unless you’re in the ICU sort of mindset). My detox symptoms were relatively mild and resolved within 2 days. I do think when things don’t trend toward improving and every single day is detox it’s probably time to rethink what you’re doing-but you already know that!

 

[Tarmander]

Thanks for the update @Tarmander.

The find the good days are pretty amazing. The average days are still really good and “detox” days for me are still much better than before and at this point they seem less frequent and less intense.

I’m far from an expert on detox and didn’t really believe in it before but I had a day last week where for the first time I was pretty certain it was detox. I tend to assume I’m just getting sick and I’m sure I have a lot of conventional medicine influence of minimizing symptoms (you’re not really sick unless you’re in the ICU sort of mindset). My detox symptoms were relatively mild and resolved within 2 days. I do think when things don’t trend toward improving and every single day is detox it’s probably time to rethink what you’re doing-but you already know that!

Definitely. I should have added above that the back and forth nature is way better for me then what I had, which was just red skin that seems to be slowly sagging more every day. So trending in the right direction!

 

[charlie]

The mental benefits seem to be permanent as long as I stick with the diet. But my vision will go from super sharp to super blurry on a daily basis. My skin will go from very white and soft to red, splotchy and sagging.

This will happen as the acid is moving out, aka detoxing.

 

[InChristAlone]

I have used thyroid on and off since 2013. It has been helpful but not a panacea for me personally. I think it’s probably individual but if a person is *truly overloaded* with A I think they should at least try to cut back on higher A foods and not supplement to see if it helps. I take thyroid every now and then currently for an energy boost although I don’t need it to get by and it works as expected. Before it was very unpredictable and felt like something was blocking it from working. It seemed very autoimmune to me despite not having thyroid antibodies on tests. That’s just my experience.
I suppose it also depends on how much a person is open to a diet change and if they are more of the type who would rather take a pill.
I thought I read that thyroid hormones help us make RBP and if that’s the case I can see why it’s so important in dealing with VA.

Yeah that's true, some people won't change their diet. My Mom is like this. But her synthroid med doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot. I figure she's probably not getting much of it into her cells.

Yeah I think if one is truly overloaded they should stop overloading for a while. Because all that is A is probably taking up the carrier that also transports thryoid.. which is new info for me and I don't understand it well.

 

[Makrosky]

@Tarmander what happens if you take, let's say, 5000 IU of vitamin A? In supplemental form. Just A.

 

[Blossom]

Yeah that's true, some people won't change their diet. My Mom is like this. But her synthroid med doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot. I figure she's probably not getting much of it into her cells.

Yeah I think if one is truly overloaded they should stop overloading for a while. Because all that is A is probably taking up the carrier that also transports thryoid.. which is new info for me and I don't understand it well.

It was a huge life lesson for me to learn to truly respect other people’s choices. It’s especially hard with close loved ones because we want what we think is best for them. I certainly could have helped my own mother extend her life possibly quality and definitely quantity but that’s not what she wanted. I guess that’s what Peat means by not steering people and inactivating their inner guidance. :) It’s still hard.

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander what happens if you take, let's say, 5000 IU of vitamin A? In supplemental form. Just A.

I am not sure. The last time I took supplemental A all by itself was a few years ago when I was trying out Haidut's. Made me totally manic, couldn't sleep, and had a lot of restlessness. I was also living in an EMF hell hole so that was kind of my default state a lot of the time, but A made it worse.

 

[InChristAlone]

It was a huge life lesson for me to learn to truly respect other people’s choices. It’s especially hard with close loved ones because we want what we think is best for them. I certainly could have helped my own mother extend her life possibly quality and definitely quantity but that’s not what she wanted. I guess that’s what Peat means by not steering people and inactivating their inner guidance. :) It’s still hard.

Yeah it is hard! She comes to me with her health problems so I attempt to give advice but I know she will have to make the choice for herself. I just hate it that doctors are seen as an authority, she complains all the time about how doctors don't help her, but I think she still sees them as the authority. She went through a ton of testing for her severe acid reflux only to be told to continue her PPI's and not come back because they couldn't help her! Unbelievable the state of healthcare.

 

[InChristAlone]

I am not sure. The last time I took supplemental A all by itself was a few years ago when I was trying out Haidut's. Made me totally manic, couldn't sleep, and had a lot of restlessness. I was also living in an EMF hell hole so that was kind of my default state a lot of the time, but A made it worse.

Wow, you feel A made you manic? One of the symptoms I developed Peating was a kind of hypomania. It changed my behavior. It's gotten a lot better, but I kinda get a flare up when I have caffeine. I remember a case of a guy who was put on a dopamine drug I think bromocriptine and he suddenly became a sex addict and spent all his money. LOL!

 

[Tarmander]

Wow, you feel A made you manic? One of the symptoms I developed Peating was a kind of hypomania. It changed my behavior and I nearly destroyed my marriage by poor choices. It's gotten a lot better, but I kinda get a flare up when I have caffeine. I remember a case of a guy who was put on a dopamine drug I think bromocriptine and he suddenly became a sex addict and spent all his money. LOL!

Oh yeaaahh. I remember I became quite sexualized on Lisuride. Dopamine is a hellava feeling. By Manic I just mean way to fast...thinking too fast, moving too fast, focusing not enough, impatient, overly emotional, that kind of thing.

 

[InChristAlone]

Oh yeaaahh. I remember I became quite sexualized on Lisuride. Dopamine is a hellava feeling. By Manic I just mean way to fast...thinking too fast, moving too fast, focusing not enough, impatient, overly emotional, that kind of thing.

Yeah I've had that too.

Have you thought about demanding from your hus-band (michael, 2017-18; Robbins, 2012-19) a song?

Vit K..

One interesting aspect is that when it's obtained from leaves, the avialbilatiay is lower, often claimed to be around 10%. Someone ingesting 300 mcg of phylloquinone a day will only be getting a fraction of that, ending up with values comparable to those that we has been discussing.

There's the cavern that various food sources of K2 didn't go through detailed analysis to detect varied forms, some were simply not measured. Their content might be underestimated. But dairy is one of the exceptions.

For butter, it must be highly available. For cheeses it might be a bit lower than butter if calcium happens to form the insoluble salts, but some of them provide a lot of K2, they're probably major contributors. The highest that I could find for cheeses was a French one containing more than 100 mcg/100 g. But the average seems to be around 30 mcg/100 g. Not everyone consumes aged cheeses and those 100 g a day.

Which is why a few milligrams from purified supplements is a hefty dose in relation to diet.

Values found in bowels from gurus that underwented colonoscopy ranged from 300 to more than 5000 mcg. It's not so easy to adsorb it from the colon, but some is. These are the long-chain menaquinones that concentrate in liver.

But bloody undercarboxylated osteocalcin decreases as the phylloquinone intake increases. More is desirable and beneficial, people's experiences support this.

- Phylloquinone (vitamin K1) intakes and serum undercarboxylated osteocalcinlevels in Irish postmenopausal women

View attachment 12357​

However! This was not the issue in question, it was getting enough vit K without exposing yourself to substantial amounts of poison/"vitamin" A.

Returning to the idea of plant structure inhibiting adsorption, the same applies to propoison A. So it's likely that carotenoids from animal products are more available to the body than from plants. The standard factor applied to b-carotene for equivalence to retinol is 1/12 (2*6); 2 because you need twice as much of it (and more for other carotenoids) to get same effect of retinol when both are given as purified oils, multiplied by 6 to adjust for the roughage interfering with adsorption. Applying the standard factor to propoison A derived from animal products might not be correct, it must be more available than that.

I don't think it's worth trying to track propoison A in foods through nutrition apps with precision because other factors (such as metabolic state) will invalidate all these details, it's a waste of time. A more practical thing to do if you just want to have a notion of how much poison A you's obtaining in your diet is to focus on RAE (Retinol Activity Equivalents) values: it combines all sources (including preformed poison A) and puts them in (theoresical) equivalence to retinol. It's still valuable to leave the carotenoids visible to grasp if you're not going over the boards.


- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"2013-2019: quart of orange juice, half quart of low-fat milk, 200 grams of low-fat cheese (with added beta carotene), 1 large carrot, kale 100 grams, 2 cups of white rice, 50 grams of dark chocolate, 2 pounds of potatoes, 2 whole eggs, coffee with 60 grams of sugar, beef liver 100 grams every two weeks, shrimp 100 gram two times a week, chicken breast two times a week 200 gram. I also used Estroban everyday for around 4 months out of 12 months a year (which has 5000 IU per day). I have also used Retinil 2 whole bottles over the years, and one nutrisorb-A bottle a few years ago."


Vinero's vitamin A intake from foods alone wasn't as extreme as it appeared to be. Excessive use of supplements or more propoison A than he could afford having floating around are more likely responsible for any worsening.

There was a mistake here because I forgot that the retinol content of foods is already considered in RAE (Retinol Activity Equivalents). For him it was about 5000 IU a day and his biweekly liver consumption could be adding a daily amount of 2200 IU. Therefore that's about 7200 IU/d from food.

- Vitamin A - Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety

View attachment 12356
​

Zeus released Retinil in 2015, so Vinero's Nutrisorb-A use was probably before that. If I had to guess, it would be something like this:

- 2013-15: Nutrisorb-A as retinyl palmitate

340 servings of (used half the values for Retinil) 2500 IU; 850,000 IU entire bottle
Retinol equivalence (1400 IU/serving): 467,000 IU ÷ 730 days = 600 IU/d
​

- 2015-16: Retinil as retinyl acetate

340 servings of 2400 IU; 816,000 IU entire bottle
Retinol equivalence (2000 IU/serving): 711,000 IU ÷ 730 days = 1000 IU/d
​

- 2017-18: Retinil as retinyl palmitate

340 servings of 5000 IU; 1,700,000 IU entire bottle
Retinol equivalence (2800 IU/serving): 934,000 IU ÷ 730 days = 1300 IU/d
​

Therefore..

7,200 IU/d (food) + 1,000 IU/d (A-supplement) = 8,200/d
​

Or considering the highest intake as long as he kept within the suggested servings..

7,200 IU/d (food) + 2,800 IU/d (Retinil) + 2,800 IU/d (Estropan for 4 months) = 13,000 IU/d
​

It's a high intake that might pass unnoticed and can lead to problems over time, but it's not the horror story that the hysteric makes out to be; giving the impression that it's advisable to take extensive measures (or preferably embark on his supervised protocol) to purge the poison out of the system while avoiding this insidious toxin at all costs. I doubt people who allow the idea to register will be approaching such foods the same way: without fear, uncertainty or a sense of guilt.


If I was in Blossom's position, I would first get a clearer sense of the contribution of casein and poison A avoidance to the improvement. After hasing a better idea of how important was the poison restriction, I would consider grasping if there's indeed too much stored, a few reintroductions shouldn't set her back to stage 1; and if they do, it's a reinforcement that's mere management.

Then, I would try to discern if it's an issue of poor utilization of carotenoid or poison A itself. If she keeps the toxin burden low for long enough to drop her blood levels, adding carotenes and restoring circulating poison A is a confirmation that there's no blockade in conversion. Perhaps it's just a matter of keeping propoison A lower for not converting them well and there won't be negatives from preformed poison consumed in reasonable amounts. Otherwise, if the conversion to retinoic acid is supposed to be 'tightly regulated', what else is going on?

Adding preformed poison A and reacting poorly with manifestation as yellowing of skin tone might mean that the liver is burdened, malnourished and a few doses were enough to deplete cofactors. It can also mean that there's too much stored and it stopped conversion of carotenes that are now building up instead of being cleared by use (assuming that they're present in the diet or not much has elapsed since avoiding them).

What was criticized a few posts back was the idea that full depletion is a viable option and that it's possible to sustain it indefinitely without running into trouble; and not that lowering the intake for some people isn't desirable.

Even though the effects are remarkable (so is the initial periods of various drastic change in habits), with an extreme restriction she will eventually have to deal with the mentioned conflict of deciding between halting her progress to avoid compromising other aspects or insist with such risk. But maybe if she keeps inflammation low for long enough, it suffices to correct the underlying cause, who knows..

Were you checking out my facebook? I don't like the anonymity some people are maintaining here! Although the mystery can be a little intriguing.

Gouda was supposed to be one of the highest K2 sources for cheese. I also eat parmigiano-reggiano. My favorite cheesies seems to come from the Netherlands and Italy. I wonder if they have good teeth there and if not is there any truth then to the K2 good saliva theories?

For the future of this vitamin A research, I want to see values for many different kinds of milk and their glyphosate content. Since that seems to be a big factor in making this a bigger issue than in the past.

 

[Terma]

Hello I am posting to make a correction to an earlier post:
Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

PTDSS1 converts PC -> PS (base exchange: PC + serine -> PS + choline) and to a lesser extent PE -> PS, not PC -> PE.

The claim that PTDSS1 converts PC -> PE came from this study:
The role of retinoic acid in hepatic lipid homeostasis defined by genomic binding and transcriptome profiling

Our data showed that RA induced the gene expression of ptdss1 (phosphatidylserine synthase 1), which converts PC to PE. Consistently, the ptdss1 gene expression is reduced due to hepatic RXRα deficiency.

It must be an error because it contradicts more authoritative sources on PTDSS1, e.g. in the discussion of
Purification and characterization of human phosphatidylserine synthases 1 and 2. - PubMed - NCBI
This makes the enzyme itself much more interesting.

 

[Blossom]

The neurotoxic effects of vitamin A and retinoids
Vitamin A supplementation also affected the levels of one of the most important neurotrophins in the mammalian brain experimentally. It was reported that retinol palmitate supplementation (1,000 to 9,000 IU/day-1) for 28 days decreased brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the rat hippocampus (De Oliveira et al. 2011a). BDNF regulates neuronal plasticity, bioenergetics, mitochondrial biogenesis, and neuronal survival, to cite a few (Cheng et al. 2010, Agrawal et al. 2014, Marosi and Mattson 2014). Decreased BDNF may lead to limited mitochondrial biogenesis and mitochondrial dysfunction during events of neurotoxicity. By decreasing BDNF levels, vitamin A impairs not only neuronal plasticity that is necessary to the learning and memory processes, but also the ability of this organelle to produce adequate amounts of ATP needed to counteract acute and chronic stress. In fact, it was demonstrated that vitamin A affects mitochondrial function in vitro and in vivo, as discussed above.

Could someone well versed in understanding scientific studies tell me what the -1 in the above paragraph signifies? (1,000-9,000 IU/day-1)
Thanks

 

[Kartoffel]

The neurotoxic effects of vitamin A and retinoids
Vitamin A supplementation also affected the levels of one of the most important neurotrophins in the mammalian brain experimentally. It was reported that retinol palmitate supplementation (1,000 to 9,000 IU/day-1) for 28 days decreased brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the rat hippocampus (De Oliveira et al. 2011a). BDNF regulates neuronal plasticity, bioenergetics, mitochondrial biogenesis, and neuronal survival, to cite a few (Cheng et al. 2010, Agrawal et al. 2014, Marosi and Mattson 2014). Decreased BDNF may lead to limited mitochondrial biogenesis and mitochondrial dysfunction during events of neurotoxicity. By decreasing BDNF levels, vitamin A impairs not only neuronal plasticity that is necessary to the learning and memory processes, but also the ability of this organelle to produce adequate amounts of ATP needed to counteract acute and chronic stress. In fact, it was demonstrated that vitamin A affects mitochondrial function in vitro and in vivo, as discussed above.

Could someone well versed in understanding scientific studies tell me what the -1 in the above paragraph signifies? (1,000-9,000 IU/day-1)
Thanks

You might also experience decreased neuronal plasticity when someone shoves a tube down your throat every night as they did in that study. Vitamin A is crucial for neuronal plasticity, and it has been demonstrated very clearly that deficiency of this "poison" leads to neuronal impairments. Have you considered that you could be affected by confirmation bias when it comes to this vitamin A is a the poison theory?

"Despite its long history, the central effects of progressive depletion of vitamin A in adult mice has not been previously described. An examination of vitamin-deprived animals revealed a progressive and ultimately profound impairment of hippocampal CA1 long-term potentiation and a virtual abolishment of long-term depression. Importantly, these losses are fully reversible by dietary vitamin A replenishment in vivo or direct application of all trans-retinoic acid to acute hippocampal slices. We find retinoid responsive transgenes to be highly active in the hippocampus, and by using dissected explants, we show the hippocampus to be a site of robust synthesis of bioactive retinoids. In aggregate, these results demonstrate that vitamin A and its active derivatives function as essential competence factors for long-term synaptic plasticity within the adult brain, and suggest that key genes required for long-term potentiation and long-term depression are retinoid dependent. These data suggest a major mental consequence for the hundreds of millions of adults and children who are vitamin A deficient."
​

Neuroscience. 2002;115(2):475-82.
Vitamin A deficiency produces spatial learning and memory impairment in rats.
Cocco S1, Diaz G, Stancampiano R, Diana A, Carta M, Curreli R, Sarais L, Fadda F.
Author information
Abstract
Vitamin A and its derivatives (retinoids) play important roles in many physiological processes. The recent finding of high levels of cellular retinol-binding protein type 1 immunoreactivity, cellular retinoic acid-binding protein type 1 immunoreactivity and the presence of nuclear retinoid receptors in the central nervous system of adult rodents suggests that retinoids may carry out important roles in the adult brain. In consideration of the role of the hippocampus in spatial learning and memory we evaluated the effect of vitamin A deprivation in adult rats on these functions. Following 12 weeks of vitamin A-free diet, rats were trained to acquire a radial-arm maze task. Results show that this diet induced a severe deficit in the spatial learning and memory task. The cognitive impairment was fully restored when vitamin A was replaced in the diet. We also found a significant decrease in hippocampal acetylcholine release induced by scopolamine, assessed using microdialysis technique, and a reduction in the size of hippocampal nuclei of CA1 region in vitamin-deficient rats, compared to rats fed with a vitamin A-sufficient diet. These results demonstrate that vitamin A has a critical role in the learning and memory processes linked to a proper hippocampal functioning.

PLoS One. 2008;3(10):e3487. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0003487. Epub 2008 Oct 22.
Retinoic acid restores adult hippocampal neurogenesis and reverses spatial memory deficit in vitamin A deprived rats.
Bonnet E1, Touyarot K, Alfos S, Pallet V, Higueret P, Abrous DN.
Author information
Abstract
A dysfunction of retinoid hippocampal signaling pathway has been involved in the appearance of affective and cognitive disorders. However, the underlying neurobiological mechanisms remain unknown. Hippocampal granule neurons are generated throughout life and are involved in emotion and memory. Here, we investigated the effects of vitamin A deficiency (VAD) on neurogenesis and memory and the ability of retinoic acid (RA) treatment to prevent VAD-induced impairments. Adult retinoid-deficient rats were generated by a vitamin A-free diet from weaning in order to allow a normal development. The effects of VAD and/or RA administration were examined on hippocampal neurogenesis, retinoid target genes such as neurotrophin receptors and spatial reference memory measured in the water maze. Long-term VAD decreased neurogenesis and led to memory deficits. More importantly, these effects were reversed by 4 weeks of RA treatment. These beneficial effects may be in part related to an up-regulation of retinoid-mediated molecular events, such as the expression of the neurotrophin receptor TrkA. We have demonstrated for the first time that the effect of vitamin A deficient diet on the level of hippoccampal neurogenesis is reversible and that RA treatment is important for the maintenance of the hippocampal plasticity and function.

 

[Blossom]

You might also experience decreased neuronal plasticity when someone shoves a tube down your throat every night as they did in that study. Vitamin A is crucial for neuronal plasticity, and it has been demonstrated very clearly that deficiency of this "poison" leads to neuronal impairments. Have you considered that you could be affected by confirmation bias when it comes to this vitamin A is a the poison theory?

Thank you Kartoffel, now you are speaking my language. I have a bit of experience with intubation you're correct that it can be quite stressful. In humans NIPPV would be a less invasive choice but I suppose that's not an option for those poor rats.
I really don't have any motive other than the question I asked about the meaning of the -1. The other doses mentioned in the link seemed quite high and understandable that they could cause problems.
I do ultimately just want the truth regardless of what that may be. Thanks again

 

[milk_lover]

@Blossom You said OJ has vit A? hmm this is interesting.. I don't like OJ that much.. The taste of liver in general disgusts me. Eggs give me bloating problems. Could I be doing low vitamin A diet unintentionally? Two weeks ago, I asked myself "when was I the last time I had liver?" and the answer to my surprise was more than 2 months ago. So I took myself to the restaurant and ordered two grilled lamb liver sandwiches and I had the worst migraine the following day. I was also anti-social when I went for my family lunch gathering. This theory could have some truth even though I don't want to jump to conclusions and I strongly advise people to test the theory by themselves. What do you think of vitamin D supplementation? @Janelle525 do you take vitamin D?

 

[Blossom]

@milk_lover,
I stopped taking D in October because I didn’t feel like I needed it anymore. It has helped me in the past though. My D levels are decent at 38 but I’m currently try to get some UV for about 10 minutes 1-2 times per week since it’s winter where I live.

 

[milk_lover]

@milk_lover,
I stopped taking D in October because I didn’t feel like I needed it anymore. It has helped me in the past though. My D levels are decent at 38 but I’m currently try to get some UV for about 10 minutes 1-2 times per week since it’s winter where I live.

Oh thanks for the info. I suppose I don't need UV because I live already in a sunny country. But I don't think I get enough vitamin D from our sun because I wear the white traditional clothes, so I am almost covered from head to toe and I am naturally a tanned person.