Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Amazoniac]

I wouldn't use butter as a sole vitamin K2 source. Beef chuck has a similar amount per 100g. I eat grass-fed beef, some cheese, and about 1 TBS butter a day. Natto is an excellent choice is you like it!

I was going through Chris' collections, and the only three cuts with unusually high content appeared to have bone in them, they contained only long-chain menaquinones and these must come from bactaeria in the rumen. Grass-fed might increase the K content but can also increase the poison content of fat. Perhaps it's more likely that it will tend towards the latter given that the grass goes through fermentation first and long-chain menaquinones won't be deposited in fats that is adjacent to muscles, contrary to pigments.

Not everyone will be consuming red meats with bones daily. Most other meats that aren't fatty provide less than 10 mcg/100 g.

Cheeses might or might not provide a great deal of K, but will still provide way more poison. The amount in butter that you consume is tiny, like 5 mcg compared to 350 IU of poison A.

 

[InChristAlone]

I was going through Chris' collections, and the only three cuts with unusually high content appeared to have bone in them, they contained only long-chain menaquinones and these must come from bactaeria in the rumen. Grass-fed might increase the K content but can also increase the poison content of fat. Perhaps it's more likely that it will tend towards the latter given that the grass goes through fermentation first and long-chain menaquinones won't be deposited in fats that is adjacent to muscles, contrary to pigments.

Not everyone will be consuming red meats with bones daily. Most other meats that aren't fatty provide less than 10 mcg/100 g.

Cheeses might or might not provide a great deal of K, but will still provide way more poison. The amount in butter that you consume is tiny, like 5 mcg compared to 350 IU of poison A.

I was just saying you can get it from beef. I use a supplement from time to time. No way I"ll eat natto or much liver. For a while I was eating like 50 grams of gouda a day. But that was too much in my opinion. Plus if it is made by fermentation maybe we can absorb some from our bowels or there'd be widespread K2 deficiency in picky eaters.

 

[tankasnowgod]

About iron, I think parallels are not as perfect as people think. From the independent research that I've done, I get the impression that nearly every case of anemia is not a lack of iron, but of some other co-factor involved in hemoglobin synthesis (there are many). Peat's conclusion in this matter is widely held by experts in nearly every segment of the health/medical spectrum. It is the consensus of many researchers over many decades. To contrast, Grant is a singular layman that is discounting a century of research.

Piggybacking on this, there is not one iron researcher out there that says iron is always bad, or is un-essential. Not one. Every single researcher who points out the toxicity of iron points out that current levels are likely too high, and accepted ranges too wide, and that supplemental iron is prescribed too quickly to too many people. It is always stated that iron is essential for all life (with the possible exception of lactobacillus bacteria). The goal for those reducing iron is never to get it, or any iron related marker to "zero," as that would only be possible in death. The target for those looking to lower iron is near deficiency, but some people apparently skip over the word "near."

In contrast, Grant has indeed stated that he is currently striving to have no Vitamin A in his body.

 

[InChristAlone]

Piggybacking on this, there is not one iron researcher out there that says iron is always bad, or is un-essential. Not one. Every single researcher who points out the toxicity of iron points out that current levels are likely too high, and accepted ranges too wide, and that supplemental iron is prescribed too quickly to too many people. It is always stated that iron is essential for all life (with the possible exception of lactobacillus bacteria). The goal for those reducing iron is never to get it, or any iron related marker to "zero," as that would only be possible in death. The target for those looking to lower iron is near deficiency, but some people apparently skip over the word "near."

In contrast, Grant has indeed stated that he is currently striving to have no Vitamin A in his body.

Maybe you could replace iron with vitamin A in everything you said and it would still apply. S0 the goal for those reducing vitamin A is never to get it, or any vitamin A related marker to "zero" as that would only be possible in death. The target for those looking to lower vitamin A is near deficiency. How is that guys?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Maybe you could replace iron with vitamin A in everything you said and it would still apply. S0 the goal for those reducing vitamin A is never to get it, or any vitamin A related marker to "zero" as that would only be possible in death. The target for those looking to lower vitamin A is near deficiency. How is that guys?

Well, the issue is that Grant is on record as aiming for zero....
Nothing. It’s worth fighting for.

EDIT- I read a quote by Masterjohn long ago about a similar issue, with I think veganism being the extreme. His point was that if someone uses very few animal products in their diet, say, 2%, the difference between them and other Omnivores is a level of degree. If someone is vegan and maintains that 0% animal products is optimal, they are now in a different category.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I'm trying to think of any study that showed that supplementing iron had any kind of beneficial effect on the human body. Most of the studies are just about improving iron status in third world peoples. I can't recall any study that looked beyond "supplementing iron improves iron stores in the blood" or something like that. My memory could be selective.

Vitamin A supplementation, on the hand, has been shown to have many beneficial effects in studies.

Outside of hemoglobin, I'm not sure iron has any proper role in the body. One paper I read said something about DNA synthesis, but it wasn't cited so I wasn't able to follow up on it. There are probably a few other enzymes that use it. Who knows, you may be able to substitute copper for that role.

Retinol has many roles in the body

I don't think they are equivalent.

 

[InChristAlone]

I'm trying to think of any study that showed that supplementing iron had any kind of beneficial effect on the human body. Most of the studies are just about improving iron status in third world peoples. I can't recall any study that looked beyond "supplementing iron improves iron stores in the blood" or something like that. My memory could be selective.

Vitamin A supplementation, on the hand, has been shown to have many beneficial effects in studies.

Outside of hemoglobin, I'm not sure iron has any proper role in the body. One paper I read said something about DNA synthesis, but it wasn't cited so I wasn't able to follow up on it. There are probably a few other enzymes that use it. Who knows, you may be able to substitute copper for that role.

Retinol has many roles in the body

I don't think they are equivalent.

Yeah and hasn't it been said that other heavy metals can also increase hemoglobin?

But here we go around in circles again about the vitamin A. In the studies they are likely short term. I really don't care if something helps short term, what are the long term effects? Radiation can kill cancer cells in the sort term and promote cancer in the long term. Fish oil can quell inflammation in the short term and age you in the long term. Taking a retinol supplement can clear up acne in the short term, but possibly make it come back even worse in the long term (thinking of bohogirl and her cystic acne). Or in the case of accutane clear up acne and lead to suicide later on. Anyway, the results of some of our dear members are undeniable. I hope they continue to have those results and buck the status quo.

 

[Amazoniac]

I was just saying you can get it from beef. I use a supplement from time to time. No way I"ll eat natto or much liver. For a while I was eating like 50 grams of gouda a day. But that was too much in my opinion. Plus if it is made by fermentation maybe we can absorb some from our bowels or there'd be widespread K2 deficiency in picky eaters.

Have you thought about demanding from your hus-band (michael, 2017-18; Robbins, 2012-19) a song?

Vit K..

One interesting aspect is that when it's obtained from leaves, the avialbilatiay is lower, often claimed to be around 10%. Someone ingesting 300 mcg of phylloquinone a day will only be getting a fraction of that, ending up with values comparable to those that we has been discussing.

There's the cavern that various food sources of K2 didn't go through detailed analysis to detect varied forms, some were simply not measured. Their content might be underestimated. But dairy is one of the exceptions.

For butter, it must be highly available. For cheeses it might be a bit lower than butter if calcium happens to form the insoluble salts, but some of them provide a lot of K2, they're probably major contributors. The highest that I could find for cheeses was a French one containing more than 100 mcg/100 g. But the average seems to be around 30 mcg/100 g. Not everyone consumes aged cheeses and those 100 g a day.

Which is why a few milligrams from purified supplements is a hefty dose in relation to diet.

Values found in bowels from gurus that underwented colonoscopy ranged from 300 to more than 5000 mcg. It's not so easy to adsorb it from the colon, but some is. These are the long-chain menaquinones that concentrate in liver.

But bloody undercarboxylated osteocalcin decreases as the phylloquinone intake increases. More is desirable and beneficial, people's experiences support this.

- Phylloquinone (vitamin K1) intakes and serum undercarboxylated osteocalcinlevels in Irish postmenopausal women

However! This was not the issue in question, it was getting enough vit K without exposing yourself to substantial amounts of poison/"vitamin" A.

Returning to the idea of plant structure inhibiting adsorption, the same applies to propoison A. So it's likely that carotenoids from animal products are more available to the body than from plants. The standard factor applied to b-carotene for equivalence to retinol is 1/12 (2*6); 2 because you need twice as much of it (and more for other carotenoids) to get same effect of retinol when both are given as purified oils, multiplied by 6 to adjust for the roughage interfering with adsorption. Applying the standard factor to propoison A derived from animal products might not be correct, it must be more available than that.

I don't think it's worth trying to track propoison A in foods through nutrition apps with precision because other factors (such as metabolic state) will invalidate all these details, it's a waste of time. A more practical thing to do if you just want to have a notion of how much poison A you's obtaining in your diet is to focus on RAE (Retinol Activity Equivalents) values: it combines all sources (including preformed poison A) and puts them in (theoresical) equivalence to retinol. It's still valuable to leave the carotenoids visible to grasp if you're not going over the boards.


- Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

"2013-2019: quart of orange juice, half quart of low-fat milk, 200 grams of low-fat cheese (with added beta carotene), 1 large carrot, kale 100 grams, 2 cups of white rice, 50 grams of dark chocolate, 2 pounds of potatoes, 2 whole eggs, coffee with 60 grams of sugar, beef liver 100 grams every two weeks, shrimp 100 gram two times a week, chicken breast two times a week 200 gram. I also used Estroban everyday for around 4 months out of 12 months a year (which has 5000 IU per day). I have also used Retinil 2 whole bottles over the years, and one nutrisorb-A bottle a few years ago."


Vinero's vitamin A intake from foods alone wasn't as extreme as it appeared to be. Excessive use of supplements or more propoison A than he could afford having floating around are more likely responsible for any worsening.

There was a mistake here because I forgot that the retinol content of foods is already considered in RAE (Retinol Activity Equivalents). For him it was about 5000 IU a day and his biweekly liver consumption could be adding a daily amount of 2200 IU. Therefore that's about 7200 IU/d from food.

- Vitamin A - Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety

​

Zeus released Retinil in 2015, so Vinero's Nutrisorb-A use was probably before that. If I had to guess, it would be something like this:

- 2013-15: Nutrisorb-A as retinyl palmitate

340 servings of (used half the values for Retinil) 2500 IU; 850,000 IU entire bottle
Retinol equivalence (1400 IU/serving): 467,000 IU ÷ 730 days = 600 IU/d
​

- 2015-16: Retinil as retinyl acetate

340 servings of 2400 IU; 816,000 IU entire bottle
Retinol equivalence (2000 IU/serving): 711,000 IU ÷ 730 days = 1000 IU/d
​

- 2017-18: Retinil as retinyl palmitate

340 servings of 5000 IU; 1,700,000 IU entire bottle
Retinol equivalence (2800 IU/serving): 934,000 IU ÷ 730 days = 1300 IU/d
​

Therefore..

7,200 IU/d (food) + 1,000 IU/d (A-supplement) = 8,200/d
​

Or considering the highest intake as long as he kept within the suggested servings..

7,200 IU/d (food) + 2,800 IU/d (Retinil) + 2,800 IU/d (Estropan for 4 months) = 13,000 IU/d
​

It's a high intake that might pass unnoticed and can lead to problems over time, but it's not the horror story that the hysteric makes out to be; giving the impression that it's advisable to take extensive measures (or preferably embark on his supervised protocol) to purge the poison out of the system while avoiding this insidious toxin at all costs. I doubt people who allow the idea to register will be approaching such foods the same way: without fear, uncertainty or a sense of guilt.


If I was in Blossom's position, I would first get a clearer sense of the contribution of casein and poison A avoidance to the improvement. After hasing a better idea of how important was the poison restriction, I would consider grasping if there's indeed too much stored, a few reintroductions shouldn't set her back to stage 1; and if they do, it's a reinforcement that's mere management.

Then, I would try to discern if it's an issue of poor utilization of carotenoid or poison A itself. If she keeps the toxin burden low for long enough to drop her blood levels, adding carotenes and restoring circulating poison A is a confirmation that there's no blockade in conversion. Perhaps it's just a matter of keeping propoison A lower for not converting them well and there won't be negatives from preformed poison consumed in reasonable amounts. Otherwise, if the conversion to retinoic acid is supposed to be 'tightly regulated', what else is going on?

Adding preformed poison A and reacting poorly with manifestation as yellowing of skin tone might mean that the liver is burdened, malnourished and a few doses were enough to deplete cofactors. It can also mean that there's too much stored and it stopped conversion of carotenes that are now building up instead of being cleared by use (assuming that they're present in the diet or not much has elapsed since avoiding them).

What was criticized a few posts back was the idea that full depletion is a viable option and that it's possible to sustain it indefinitely without running into trouble; and not that lowering the intake for some people isn't desirable.

Even though the effects are remarkable (so is the initial periods of various drastic change in habits), with an extreme restriction she will eventually have to deal with the mentioned conflict of deciding between halting her progress to avoid compromising other aspects or insist with such risk. But maybe if she keeps inflammation low for long enough, it suffices to correct the underlying cause, who knows..

 

[Blossom]

If I was in Blossom's position, I would first get a clearer sense of the contribution of casein and poison A avoidance to the improvement. After hasing a better idea of how important was the poison restriction, I would consider grasping if there's indeed too much stored, a few reintroductions shouldn't set her back to stage 1; and if they do, it's a reinforcement that's mere management.

Then, I would try to discern if it's an issue of poor utilization of carotenoid or poison A itself. If she keeps the toxin burden low for long enough to drop her blood levels, adding carotenes and restoring circulating poison A is a confirmation that there's no blockade in conversion. Perhaps it's just a matter of keeping propoison A lower for not converting them well and there won't be negatives from preformed poison consumed in reasonable amounts. Otherwise, if the conversion to retinoic acid is supposed to be 'tightly regulated', what else is going on?

Adding preformed poison A and reacting poorly with manifestation as yellowing of skin tone might mean that the liver is burdened, malnourished and a few doses were enough to deplete cofactors. It can also mean that there's too much stored and it stopped conversion of carotenes that are now building up instead of being cleared by use (assuming that they're present in the diet or not much has elapsed since avoiding them).

Okay, thanks for encouraging me to think more on this issue.

Upon reflection I can say with certainty that I didn’t consume milk regularly from the age of about 14-43. Occasionally I would have a small amount with cereal but probably less than 5 times per year. I never avoided dairy completely but it wasn’t part of my daily diet and I was still unwell. I developed chronic fatigue syndrome while not consuming dairy. I had used a micellized A around the time I was hit with Epstein Bar virus and resulting CFS. Maybe that’s a coincidence or maybe not. I used retin-a daily from ages 20-40.

The celiac disease complicates things in my case because I was certainly eating gluten multiple times daily for my whole life until age 42. I somewhat improved in 2011 from going gluten free but when I started the Wahl’s Autoimmune Diet which is a paleo approach that calls for abundant colorful fruits and vegetables I became very ill despite no dairy or gluten.

I don’t think casein is my main issue but I could have developed a sensitivity to it from chronic gut inflammation.
When I first discovered Peat I seemed ok with dairy for awhile but I had been gluten free for a couple years at that point so my inflammation was down.

All of that leads me to believe eliminating dairy isn’t the primary reason for my current improvements but it could be a contributing factor.
I’ve consumed it before and tolerated it so I think it’s possible I might be able to again at some point if I decide to test it out.

Right now I’m not motivated to experiment much though because I’ve found a way of eating that doesn’t feel restricted (believe it or not!) and I feel good everyday.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Right now I’m not motivated to experiment much though because I’ve found a way of eating that doesn’t feel restricted (believe it or not!) and I feel good everyday.

I can totally believe this. The diet you listed looks quite satisfying with some nice variety, and very healthy, regardless of Vitamin A status. Overall, it looks like one of the healthiest and most satisfying I have seen anywhere, including the mainstream and alterna health-o-sphere (if you can accept such a word).

If it is a matter of depleting things like Retin-A, it may just need some tweaks around the edges after a long depletion period, maybe weekly eggs instead of egg whites, and occasional liver. Based on the success of so many here, and Peat's comments on it as well, I don't think there would be any need to increase Beta Carotene at any point.

 

[Blossom]

I can totally believe this. The diet you listed looks quite satisfying with some nice variety, and very healthy, regardless of Vitamin A status. Overall, it looks like one of the healthiest and most satisfying I have seen anywhere, including this mainstream and alterna health-o-sphere (if you can accept such a word).

If it is a matter of depleting things like Retin-A, it may just need some tweaks around the edges after a long depletion period, maybe weekly eggs instead of egg whites, and occasional liver. Based on the success of so many here, and Peat's comments on it as well, I don't think there would be any need to increase Beta Carotene at any point.

Thanks @tankasnowgod. I think the Wahl’s fiasco was from carotenes.

 

[Vinero]

So It's been a week since I've adopted a very-low vitamin A diet. I have stopped my previously ray peat diet, and my diet is:
-White rice
-Beef (200 gr a day)
-5 egg whites
- Coffee with a lot of sugar and coke

What I've noticed so far:
- Eczema, no improvement (yet)
- Asthma, much improvement!
- Well being, much improvement. My mind is much clearer. I feel less brain fogged.


I feel quite good on this diet. I am going to continue for sometime to see if I can cure my eczema.
I don't know if my intake of Vitamin A is zero though, because I just buy beef from the local supermarket and its grass-fed (irish-beef) instead of grain-fed.

 

[Blossom]

I just buy beef from the local supermarket and it might be grass-fed instead of grain-fed.

It should still be fairly low or low enough for your purposes. I eat about 1/2 grain fed and 1/2 grass fed at the moment. I’ve heard arguments for both but for practical purposes I think just getting the best quality that you can afford is what is important. If I understand correctly VA isn’t stored in muscle tissue but can be found in the fat. If the fat is white it shouldn’t have much VA or carotenes. Grass-fed has other benefits but likely a bit more VA. I think you should see improvements either way.

 

[Vinero]

It should still be fairly low or low enough for your purposes. I eat about 1/2 grain fed and 1/2 grass fed at the moment. I’ve heard arguments for both but for practical purposes I think just getting the best quality that you can afford is what is important. If I understand correctly VA isn’t stored in muscle tissue but can be found in the fat. If the fat is white it shouldn’t have much VA or carotenes. Grass-fed has other benefits but likely a bit more VA. I think you should see improvements either way.

Thanks, that's good to know that the VA is only in the fat of grass-fed beef. I will only buy lean cuts and avoid the fat.

 

[sunraiser]

Okay, thanks for encouraging me to think more on this issue.

Upon reflection I can say with certainty that I didn’t consume milk regularly from the age of about 14-43. Occasionally I would have a small amount with cereal but probably less than 5 times per year. I never avoided dairy completely but it wasn’t part of my daily diet and I was still unwell. I developed chronic fatigue syndrome while not consuming dairy. I had used a micellized A around the time I was hit with Epstein Bar virus and resulting CFS. Maybe that’s a coincidence or maybe not. I used retin-a daily from ages 20-40.

The celiac disease complicates things in my case because I was certainly eating gluten multiple times daily for my whole life until age 42. I somewhat improved in 2011 from going gluten free but when I started the Wahl’s Autoimmune Diet which is a paleo approach that calls for abundant colorful fruits and vegetables I became very ill despite no dairy or gluten.

I don’t think casein is my main issue but I could have developed a sensitivity to it from chronic gut inflammation.
When I first discovered Peat I seemed

Right now I’m not motivated to experiment much though because I’ve found a way of eating that doesn’t feel restricted (believe it or not!) and I feel good everyday.

Perhaps, for you, the best way back to equilibrium is just by not pushing your metabolism with any fat solubles at all and letting your body do its thing.

The fact it doesn't feel restrictive and especially the fact you feel good is a sign that should go beyond any theory - that's awesome to hear.

All the things we think are knowledge are just perspectives within an incomplete context, after all.

I'm glad you've found your personal context, although I think the thread is important because the overall notion IS likely to be a dangerous one for certain people who should not be restricting in such a way. It's important that it stays rational and balanced, which it has for the most part!

I saw you mention before that at some point you'd try liver as a test, but for what it's worth I'd try something more tame like chicken liver pate in small quantities or something else. I really think liver can present challenges that go way beyond vitamin A. Though when it's right it can obviously be a profoundly good food!

Liver isn't at all necessary to find robust health!

 

[Blossom]

Perhaps, for you, the best way back to equilibrium is just by not pushing your metabolism with any fat solubles at all and letting your body do its thing.

The fact it doesn't feel restrictive and especially the fact you feel good is a sign that should go beyond any theory - that's awesome to hear.

All the things we think are knowledge are just perspectives within an incomplete context, after all.

I'm glad you've found your personal context, although I think the thread is important because the overall notion IS likely to be a dangerous one for certain people who should not be restricting in such a way. It's important that it stays rational and balanced, which it has for the most part!

I saw you mention before that at some point you'd try liver as a test, but for what it's worth I'd try something more tame like chicken liver pate in small quantities or something else. I really think liver can present challenges that go way beyond vitamin A. Though when it's right it can obviously be a profoundly good food!

Liver isn't at all necessary to find robust health!

Thanks @sunraiser, I always preferred the taste of chicken liver over beef so that’s an excellent suggestion.
I would never push vitamin A elimination on anyone and I have made enough errors in judgement around health to know I could be wrong. From the beginning I thought it should only be considered by those with serious issues who haven’t been able to solve their problems otherwise and if they have a known prolonged high intake of VA or related meds.
I’m glad we have had this conversation with so many reasonable contributors though because I think it might be something that goes unrecognized for some who continue to be vaguely unwell despite thinking they are eating adequately and taking all the right supplements.
Achieving health shouldn’t feel like a full time job where you can never make any headway in my opinion.

 

[InChristAlone]

It was suggested in another thread that if there is vitamin A intolerance the goal should be to increase thyroid not reduce the A. What do we think about that? I have issues with this statement. It is not that I would want someone to continue to be hypothyroid, but for a lot of Ray Peat fans they were already trying to increase for years. I know people who still to this day can't take much thyroid because it gives them adrenaline, despite years of boosting thyroid. So is it really all that simple?

 

[Tarmander]

It was suggested in another thread that if there is vitamin A intolerance the goal should be to increase thyroid not reduce the A. What do we think about that? I have issues with this statement. It is not that I would want someone to continue to be hypothyroid, but for a lot of Ray Peat fans they were already trying to increase for years. I know people who still to this day can't take much thyroid because it gives them adrenaline, despite years of boosting thyroid. So is it really all that simple?

I tried that for a couple years...isn't that just called Peating?

 

[Blossom]

It was suggested in another thread that if there is vitamin A intolerance the goal should be to increase thyroid not reduce the A. What do we think about that? I have issues with this statement. It is not that I would want someone to continue to be hypothyroid, but for a lot of Ray Peat fans they were already trying to increase for years. I know people who still to this day can't take much thyroid because it gives them adrenaline, despite years of boosting thyroid. So is it really all that simple?

I have used thyroid on and off since 2013. It has been helpful but not a panacea for me personally. I think it’s probably individual but if a person is *truly overloaded* with A I think they should at least try to cut back on higher A foods and not supplement to see if it helps. I take thyroid every now and then currently for an energy boost although I don’t need it to get by and it works as expected. Before it was very unpredictable and felt like something was blocking it from working. It seemed very autoimmune to me despite not having thyroid antibodies on tests. That’s just my experience.
I suppose it also depends on how much a person is open to a diet change and if they are more of the type who would rather take a pill.
I thought I read that thyroid hormones help us make RBP and if that’s the case I can see why it’s so important in dealing with VA.

 

[InChristAlone]

I tried that for a couple years...isn't that just called Peating?

Basically! Plus if everyone on a Ray Peat style of eating needs to eventually start using thyroid, what is the point of Peating? If you can't save your own thyroid through coffee, sugar, fruit, milk, oysters and liver?!