Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[maillol]

Well no wonder, those foods contain mega amounts of beta-carotene and too much beta-carotene paradoxically results in too little vitamin A.

I get the same effect from liver

 

[maillol]

what about from whole milk? and does this mean ground beef is better than liver, or does beef also have the anti thyroid issues due to its tryptophan and methionine. do you stick to milk only or what shouldbe used for protein.. cheese and yogurts have the fermentation/lactic acid problem in them too...

Similar from whole milk but not as bad. I've mostly been eating chicken, rice and pears although I think beef would be fine. I'm avoiding diary at the moment for the sake of the experiment.

 

[Korven]

I just came across this study (?) from 1943 and thought it was interesting: CAB Direct

"The author describes the co-existence or certain skin symptoms and weakness in power of dark adaptation, with the symptoms of nicotinamide deficiency. If vitamin A is administered these symptoms disappear but the symptoms, of nicotinamide deficiency are exacerbated; if nicotinamide is given the symptoms of vitamin A deficiency may be increased. The balance of the two factors must be preserved. In some circumstances this balance is better secured by giving lemon juice, than by giving vitamin A, in conjunction with nicotinamide; vitamin B1 and ribofiavin are also held to play some part in the balanced system."

So if you overdose on vitamin A you get pellagra?

 

[Dr. B]

I just came across this study (?) from 1943 and thought it was interesting: CAB Direct

"The author describes the co-existence or certain skin symptoms and weakness in power of dark adaptation, with the symptoms of nicotinamide deficiency. If vitamin A is administered these symptoms disappear but the symptoms, of nicotinamide deficiency are exacerbated; if nicotinamide is given the symptoms of vitamin A deficiency may be increased. The balance of the two factors must be preserved. In some circumstances this balance is better secured by giving lemon juice, than by giving vitamin A, in conjunction with nicotinamide; vitamin B1 and ribofiavin are also held to play some part in the balanced system."

So if you overdose on vitamin A you get pellagra?

is this only relevant to supplements? as milk and liver have vitamin A but also some nicotinamide or niacin. i think milk has nicotinamide riboside which im not sure if usually measured on the nutrient tests.
do you remember roughly what are the nicotinamide deficiency symptoms as well as vitamin A deficiency symptoms?
i think this would be much more noticeable with supplement usage of either?
btw the other problem is this is one thing... then you look at vitamin A interactions with the electrolytes, phosphate, calcium, vitamin d/k/e, copper, iron, taurine, and it becomes even more confusing, if not impossible to properly supplement.

 

[Sani]

Well the obvious answer is to never take supplements, just eat real food like nature intended. That guarantees that you don't cause any imbalances.

 

[tallglass13]

Well the obvious answer is to never take supplements, just eat real food like nature intended. That guarantees that you don't cause any imbalances.

I thing Dr Garrett Smith opposes that view greatly. He has a few long videos on that there is no difference between the two.

 

[Dr. B]

I thing Dr Garrett Smith opposes that view greatly. He has a few long videos on that there is no difference between the two.

isnt the issue with vitamin supplements essentially that youre putting a bunch of trust in a manmade, lab made product and assuming that man has identified all compounds in foods. for instance milk has calcium, phosphate, lactose, a bundh of b vitamins, but this is only what we can measure and have identified. there could be thousands of other compounds present in milk which we havent measured and cant identify. i wish I could find it, I saw a quote from Ray the last few weeks on here where he mentioned supplements always contain toxins and faults whereas whole foods like milk, liver, contain minerals and vitamins and possibly thosuands of unidentified vitamins, minerals and other compounds. so even if you supplement calcium, eat sugar or lactose on its own, supplement other vitamins and minerals in milk you still may not get the same benefits or even absorb the nutrients the same

 

[somuch4food]

isnt the issue with vitamin supplements essentially that youre putting a bunch of trust in a manmade, lab made product and assuming that man has identified all compounds in foods. for instance milk has calcium, phosphate, lactose, a bundh of b vitamins, but this is only what we can measure and have identified. there could be thousands of other compounds present in milk which we havent measured and cant identify. i wish I could find it, I saw a quote from Ray the last few weeks on here where he mentioned supplements always contain toxins and faults whereas whole foods like milk, liver, contain minerals and vitamins and possibly thosuands of unidentified vitamins, minerals and other compounds. so even if you supplement calcium, eat sugar or lactose on its own, supplement other vitamins and minerals in milk you still may not get the same benefits or even absorb the nutrients the same

Except our food supply is also man made, we have been selecting plants for their colors and their ability to survive on shelves instead of their vitamin content. Animals are fed unnatural diets. Carrots aren't only orange, there are a variety of colors, yet most supermarkets sell orange carrots only. Oranges don't grow in my location, yet I can buy them year round. There's only one liver in an animal, yet I can buy as much as I want at the grocery store. I could go on and on.

We have gone beyond natural in every way possible.

 

[Daniil]

So, I have been on a low VA diet for 2 weeks. I have peeling skin on my cheeks and chest. I have had this only once in my life, when I took a megadose of vitamin A for acne. This is a symptom of excess VA. For me, detox VA is proven.

 

[Dr. B]

Except our food supply is also man made, we have been selecting plants for their colors and their ability to survive on shelves instead of their vitamin content. Animals are fed unnatural diets. Carrots aren't only orange, there are a variety of colors, yet most supermarkets sell orange carrots only. Oranges don't grow in my location, yet I can buy them year round. There's only one liver in an animal, yet I can buy as much as I want at the grocery store. I could go on and on.

We have gone beyond natural in every way possible.

organic is apparently not that way, like a 100% grass fed, A2 cow should be fairly natural. the oranges are simply because of transportation practices. it should still be significantly different, buying something like organic orange juic and organic milk, compared to buying calcium and vitamin c supplements

 

[somuch4food]

organic is apparently not that way, like a 100% grass fed, A2 cow should be fairly natural. the oranges are simply because of transportation practices. it should still be significantly different, buying something like organic orange juic and organic milk, compared to buying calcium and vitamin c supplements

Yes, but not everyone is going organic or aware of A2. And the argument about oranges is that it is not native to my location, yet I can buy them. My body might not be used to them since my ancestors wouldn't have been able to eat them. Nothing is natural about the way we live today and we have to scramble to find what is true healthy behavior with trial and error since media and marketing are polluting information and diluting the truth.

 

[tallglass13]

isnt the issue with vitamin supplements essentially that youre putting a bunch of trust in a manmade, lab made product and assuming that man has identified all compounds in foods. for instance milk has calcium, phosphate, lactose, a bundh of b vitamins, but this is only what we can measure and have identified. there could be thousands of other compounds present in milk which we havent measured and cant identify. i wish I could find it, I saw a quote from Ray the last few weeks on here where he mentioned supplements always contain toxins and faults whereas whole foods like milk, liver, contain minerals and vitamins and possibly thosuands of unidentified vitamins, minerals and other compounds. so even if you supplement calcium, eat sugar or lactose on its own, supplement other vitamins and minerals in milk you still may not get the same benefits or even absorb the nutrients the same

I totally agree with your viewpoint. Food and fruit has so many nutrients that we do not even know about I am sure. It does seem though, there is a problem with a Vitamin A load when it comes to the liver. Ray Peat has acknowledged this. At first it seemed like Haidut, Danny, and even Ray were denying or avoiding this, but after some further digging and having this subject brought up, Ray and Haidut do recognize that Vitamin A toxicity is a real issue and cannot be totally ignored.

 

[Dr. B]

I totally agree with your viewpoint. Food and fruit has so many nutrients that we do not even know about I am sure. It does seem though, there is a problem with a Vitamin A load when it comes to the liver. Ray Peat has acknowledged this. At first it seemed like Haidut, Danny, and even Ray were denying or avoiding this, but after some further digging and having this subject brought up, Ray and Haidut do recognize that Vitamin A toxicity is a real issue and cannot be totally ignored.

I saw several quotes when getting into Rays stuff early on regarding vitamin A. he does kind of consider it to be in a category like iron and iodine where it should be limited. although hes a bit looser he said he used hundreds of thousands of IU a day when he had a fast metabolism in the summer or something.
i did see rays comments that it should be limited to 5000IU especially for people with slower thyroid function, and that supplements in general can cause digestive/other issues due to toxins/fillers. also hes mentioned its on the same protein as thyroid hormone so it can lower thyroid function. i think haidut mentioned the vitamin A molecule is unsaturated similar to pufa. ray mentioned it has some progesterone like effects. i didnt know danny also denied this. i havent seen his older videos from more than 2 years back. Ive asked ray about different nutrients supplementation and besides vitamin salt, E D, K and sometimes A and calcium carbonate, he seems to have an issue with every nutrient taken as a supplement. even zinc, copper, especially iodine/iron/molybdenum,

 

[tim333]

Do you think getting around 6000-8000 iu of vitamin A per week ( from butter and cheese) from ages 10-18 would lead to the storage capacity of the liver being exceeded leading to the sudden development of a very strong intolerance to dairy and dairy fat? If the person in question was hypothyroid due to iodine deficiency and an inadequate environment. And do you think if your TSH was lower than 1.9 you’d be handling it much better? my last TSH test was 1.99 and I’m not healthy

The liver can keep storing vitamin A for a long time but long before vitamin A levels get very high in the liver serum retinol will be high. When serum retinol is high retinoic acid levels become elevated. Elevated retinoic acid levels lead to the symptoms of Hypervitaminosis A.

What were the symptoms of the dairy fat intolerance? It's normally an intolerance to the lactose or proteins. I'm not saying this is true but it makes you wonder if the development of the dairy intolerance was an intelligent response of the body to limit vitamin A. Dairy is a very problematic food though, there are a few reasons one could develop an intolerance to it. I have such a strong aversion to dairy that just thinking about it makes me nauseous and I'm fine with almost any other food. Even seeing pictures of it makes my stomach turn.

I think it's really important to have adequate iodine and selenium in the diet but my understanding is that many thyroid imbalances are not caused by lack of iodine.

I'm not confident that a dairy intolerance would disappear with a slight improvement of TSH levels.

 

[Dr. B]

The liver can keep storing vitamin A for a long time but long before vitamin A levels get very high in the liver serum retinol will be high. When serum retinol is high retinoic acid levels become elevated. Elevated retinoic acid levels lead to the symptoms of Hypervitaminosis A.

What were the symptoms of the dairy fat intolerance? It's normally an intolerance to the lactose or proteins. I'm not saying this is true but it makes you wonder if the development of the dairy intolerance was an intelligent response of the body to limit vitamin A. Dairy is a very problematic food though, there are a few reasons one could develop an intolerance to it. I have such a strong aversion to dairy that just thinking about it makes me nauseous and I'm fine with almost any other food. Even seeing pictures of it makes my stomach turn.

I think it's really important to have adequate iodine and selenium in the diet but my understanding is that many thyroid imbalances are not caused by lack of iodine.

I'm not confident that a dairy intolerance would disappear with a slight improvement of TSH levels.

do you think the widespread dairy and egg intolerance is actually due to either antibiotics/toxins/pesticides/hormones in those foods or perhaps cows and chickens commonly being grain/soy/corn fed which then causes issues with them?
it may also be related to the A1 protein, it seems odd that human breast milk, sheep, goat, camel and buffalo i believe are all A2 and even cows were always A2 up till like 1800 years ago. its claimed a 'genetic mutation' caused A1 protein but it seems it may actually be a disease of some kind maybe the cows had these mutations develop due to being cannibals and eating cow meat? Has Peat ever talked about cannibalisms effects on health, whether in humans or animals? it seems uncommon, maybe only the most desperate of animals and humans engaged in it?

 

[SOMO]

I will say that supplementing with large doses of Vit A (Retinol Palmitate) gave me clicky joints that went away once I supplemented with Vit D and K2.

I have a huge concern:
My dog only eats liver basically. He doesn't really like too many other foods, but he LOVES liver. It is his favorite food bar none.

I will have his Vitamin A level tested soon because I'm concerned all that Vit A may affect his bones negatively due to competition with Vit D.

do you think the widespread dairy and egg intolerance is actually due to either antibiotics/toxins/pesticides/hormones in those foods or perhaps cows and chickens commonly being grain/soy/corn fed which then causes issues with them?
it may also be related to the A1 protein, it seems odd that human breast milk, sheep, goat, camel and buffalo i believe are all A2 and even cows were always A2 up till like 1800 years ago. its claimed a 'genetic mutation' caused A1 protein but it seems it may actually be a disease of some kind maybe the cows had these mutations develop due to being cannibals and eating cow meat? Has Peat ever talked about cannibalisms effects on health, whether in humans or animals? it seems uncommon, maybe only the most desperate of animals and humans engaged in it?

I think you're overthinking dairy intolerance.

The truth is, people who keep drinking milk after being breast feeding do not generally have issues with digesting milk.

The people who stop drinking milk after weaning off breast milk lose the ability to digest lactose and the issues start when they resume drinking milk, because the enzymes needed to digest the milk are down-regulated. Some people claim that drinking milk again (starting slowly with a few sips) will be enough to re-activate the production of lactase in the intestinal wall. What this indicates is that lactose intolerance is a form of gut damage.

For me personally, I had to take Doxycycline and restore gut health before being able to digest milk. It used to be that 1 cup of milk would give me horrible diarrhea, constipation AND gas all at the same time. Now I can basically drink a quart and I have no negative effects.

The digestion of lactase is interesting because, unlike other digestive enzymes which are made in the Pancreas, lactase is made IN the intestine, so milk digestion is clearly a natural and primitive part of ADULT human physiology.

 

[Dr. B]

I will say that supplementing with large doses of Vit A (Retinol Palmitate) gave me clicky joints that went away once I supplemented with Vit D and K2.

I have a huge concern:
My dog only eats liver basically. He doesn't really like too many other foods, but he LOVES liver. It is his favorite food bar none.

I will have his Vitamin A level tested soon because I'm concerned all that Vit A may affect his bones negatively due to competition with Vit D.


I think you're overthinking dairy intolerance.

The truth is, people who keep drinking milk after being breast feeding do not generally have issues with digesting milk.

The people who stop drinking milk after weaning off breast milk lose the ability to digest lactose and the issues start when they resume drinking milk, because the enzymes needed to digest the milk are down-regulated. Some people claim that drinking milk again (starting slowly with a few sips) will be enough to re-activate the production of lactase in the intestinal wall. What this indicates is that lactose intolerance is a form of gut damage.

For me personally, I had to take Doxycycline and restore gut health before being able to digest milk. It used to be that 1 cup of milk would give me horrible diarrhea, constipation AND gas all at the same time. Now I can basically drink a quart and I have no negative effects.

The digestion of lactase is interesting because, unlike other digestive enzymes which are made in the Pancreas, lactase is made IN the intestine, so milk digestion is clearly a natural and primitive part of ADULT human physiology.

good stuff man and ive always thought, is it possible to get human breast milk for purchase or would you need to personally know someone? and would it be more beneficial drinking that, compared to milks from other mammals.

 

[Korven]

is this only relevant to supplements? as milk and liver have vitamin A but also some nicotinamide or niacin. i think milk has nicotinamide riboside which im not sure if usually measured on the nutrient tests.
do you remember roughly what are the nicotinamide deficiency symptoms as well as vitamin A deficiency symptoms?
i think this would be much more noticeable with supplement usage of either?
btw the other problem is this is one thing... then you look at vitamin A interactions with the electrolytes, phosphate, calcium, vitamin d/k/e, copper, iron, taurine, and it becomes even more confusing, if not impossible to properly supplement.

I see the link is broken but it was written by Dr William Kaufman, he used to treat arthritis with megadoses of niacinamide, up to 2-4 g per day. Perhaps the nicotinamide deficiency symptoms he noticed was worsened arthritis? I've noticed that people overdosing on vitamin A often report having stiff joints.

 

[ursidae]

I will say that supplementing with large doses of Vit A (Retinol Palmitate) gave me clicky joints that went away once I supplemented with Vit D and K2.

I have a huge concern:
My dog only eats liver basically. He doesn't really like too many other foods, but he LOVES liver. It is his favorite food bar none.

I will have his Vitamin A level tested soon because I'm concerned all that Vit A may affect his bones negatively due to competition with Vit D.


I think you're overthinking dairy intolerance.

The truth is, people who keep drinking milk after being breast feeding do not generally have issues with digesting milk.

The people who stop drinking milk after weaning off breast milk lose the ability to digest lactose and the issues start when they resume drinking milk, because the enzymes needed to digest the milk are down-regulated. Some people claim that drinking milk again (starting slowly with a few sips) will be enough to re-activate the production of lactase in the intestinal wall. What this indicates is that lactose intolerance is a form of gut damage.

For me personally, I had to take Doxycycline and restore gut health before being able to digest milk. It used to be that 1 cup of milk would give me horrible diarrhea, constipation AND gas all at the same time. Now I can basically drink a quart and I have no negative effects.

The digestion of lactase is interesting because, unlike other digestive enzymes which are made in the Pancreas, lactase is made IN the intestine, so milk digestion is clearly a natural and primitive part of ADULT human physiology.

Why does everyone here focus on lactose when dairy intolerance is being mentioned. What if you’re lactase persistent but allergic to casein? Most people’s problem is the protein.

 

[ursidae]

The liver can keep storing vitamin A for a long time but long before vitamin A levels get very high in the liver serum retinol will be high. When serum retinol is high retinoic acid levels become elevated. Elevated retinoic acid levels lead to the symptoms of Hypervitaminosis A.

What were the symptoms of the dairy fat intolerance? It's normally an intolerance to the lactose or proteins. I'm not saying this is true but it makes you wonder if the development of the dairy intolerance was an intelligent response of the body to limit vitamin A. Dairy is a very problematic food though, there are a few reasons one could develop an intolerance to it. I have such a strong aversion to dairy that just thinking about it makes me nauseous and I'm fine with almost any other food. Even seeing pictures of it makes my stomach turn.

I think it's really important to have adequate iodine and selenium in the diet but my understanding is that many thyroid imbalances are not caused by lack of iodine.

I'm not confident that a dairy intolerance would disappear with a slight improvement of TSH levels.

I have a lot of symptoms from dairy but the one that makes me suspect vitamin A is seb derm, however it could also be the the estrogen/prolactin/IGF-1 contained or the protein. My reasoning is thyroid strengthens digestion and increases stomach acid which leads to the complete breakdown of the allergenic protein, in the case of milk it ramps up lactase production and makes it easier to handle high volume fluid form food (probably puts a strain on digestion), increases magnesium retention so you don't get a mineral imbalance, and a strong liver will deal with the exogenous hormones. I’ve experimented with T3 though and I can’t say it has done anything for my digestion. It’s probably a matter of ancestry and allergy with hereditary basis