You can need to require megadose from liver if u have a deficiency, like me lmaoI would advise everyone: Don't eat another bite of liver (or cod liver oil) until you have read Genereux's books. If you read his material, and you still want to eat liver, fine, go ahead — but I'd be surprised if you do. Most people (myself included just 6 months ago) have no idea about even the mainstream, established toxicity of excess Vitamin A.
So yeah, I'm not super keen on poisoning myself for anecdotal evidence, but lucky for you (but not me), I have accidentally performed this experiment you suggest of adding retinol or carotenes back into my diet (Genereux has too, he reports it in Ch. 11 of PFP). But it did not require a megadose like you get from liver.
Side Note: In fact, based on the experiences reported so far, it seem to be the case that when you go on the Vitamin A (VA) elimination diet, your body becomes more "sensitive" to VA consumption. Possibly it's because when you're not consuming it the body has an opportunity to process and eliminate stored retinol (including in fat tissue) and so it may be present in the bloodstream even though you are not consuming large amounts of it.
So I do have a couple anecdotes for you:
• About a month in, I gave myself a "cheat day" and ate a whole Little Caesar's cheese pizza which has 2729 IUs of VA. The next day I had a relatively significant acne breakout and a spontaneous mouth ulcer (usually I only got these after accidentally biting the inside of my mouth). Not a big deal, but still.
Side Note: I haven't had a mouth ulcer since. And recently I did bite my inner cheek enough to pierce the tissue, and unlike what usually happened in the past, I did not get a mouth ulcer from it. Which I consider evidence that A) my body is depleting retinol from mucous membrane tissue and B) retinol stored in MM tissue is indeed the cause of mouth ulcers aka canker sores.) IMO, Genereux found "the cure" (not technically a cure though is it? because it's just a cessation of unknowingly poisoning yourself) to mouth ulcers but that is insignificant compared to everything else this will "cure". Btw, Genereux explains that its the same substance causing ulcers in the inner mouth tissue, ulcers in the intestine, ulcers in the colon (hence ulcerative colitis). It's all the same cause, the same mechanism in the same kind of tissue: mucous membrane epithelial tissue.
• I have had minor episodes wherein I eat something with a decent amount of carotenes, and I experience within about 30 minutes typical sinus congestion, clogged nasal passages (can't breath through either nostril), runny nose, etc which lasts a several hours or even a couple days I just had one of these recently where I ate (estimating based on this picture) around 500 grams of watermelon (~ 3000 IU of VA in the form of carotenes). Once I knew what could be causing these sinus congestion episodes early on, I started connecting episodes of sinus congestion (my most immediate indicator of inflammation) to lots of retinol foods (even low VA meats like chicken) and carotene in foods (even just normal amounts of herbs and spices — which actually have very high VA per gram).
• And the most telling accidental experiment: About two months in, I tried adding in Fage nonfat greek yogurt — because the label says it has 0% VA. I probably consumed one of the 500g tubs within a couple days. And yet somehow* I had a severe reaction. I felt bad in general and had an episode of dry eyes in the middle of the night (not uncommon for me previously) where my eyes got so dry that the cornea sticks to the eyelid and then a movement of the eye causes a painful pulling/tearing. The pain wakes you up and lasts several hours or all day, you have to keep your eye closed and try not to move it too much. And vision in that eye is blurry for a few days afterward. I used to have these once every couple of months. It had been a regular thing for me for years — never knew why (haven't had one in the 2 months since).
*But how did this happen when there's no VA in the yogurt?
This is one of the keys in Genereux's research that unlocks the mystery. In short, I think the explanation is that foods with no detectable VA can still have Retinoic Acid. I did not come up with this idea (I just theorize that it applies to Fage nonfat yogurt).
Here is a summary of this from Genereux:
"We are also going to gain the all-critical understanding that retinol is normally, and automatically converted into retinoic acid. From there we are going to gain the amazing bit of understanding that retinoic acid causes cells to call the immune system in to destroy themselves. This is not only retinol-induced inflammation, but it is the key process by which the autoimmune diseases cause the body to self-destruct." - Genereux, ETFOH, p. 115
"Retinoic acid has about ten times the toxicity of vitamin-A (retinol). That is not to say that vitamin-A is not toxic. It is just not immediately toxic because it takes time to convert into retinoic acid. To better understand the relative toxicity between these two molecules, retinoic acid is by far the more toxic one. But, the conversion from vitamin-A (retinol) to retinoic acid is just a simple oxidation reaction. All that’s needed for the reaction to take place is a little activation energy and oxygen." - Genereux, PFP, p 31At the core of Genereux's theory is the debunking of the original research which declared VA to be a vitamin. Generuex references a hallmark study by Wolbach and Howe in 1925 where they fed rats a diet intended to be VA deplete (and it was deplete of VA) but they unknowingly designed a diet which was likely high in Retinoic Acid, which was a substance unknown and undetectable to them at the time.
"More importantly, remember, retinol is easily converted into retinoic acid via oxidation. All that’s needed to create the oxidation reaction is heat and oxygen. Ample amounts of both are present in the “rendering” process used to produce lards. Therefore, the lard in these experiments contained retinoic acid. This is not just a theory of mine. We have hard evidence for it. We just need to skip ahead a few decades to another vitamin-A deficiency experiment done in 1953." - Genereux, PFP, p. 96
So this is one of Genereux key discoveries, and he walks through this in detail in Chapter 5 of Poisoning for Profits which is titled "The Botched Deficiency Experiments":
The research which supposedly demonstrated the damage of a VA deficiency was, in reality, demonstrating the toxicity of Retinoic Acid because of flawed diet design.
That is what explains the odd phenomenon that supposed "VA deficiency" (VAD) somehow results in the same destructive symptoms as VA excess. Because the entire theory of VAD was botched from the beginning.
Essentially, retinoic acid ≈ tretinoin (Retin-A™) ≈ isotretinoin (Accutane™). The latter two are isomers of the first. For our purposes, they're basically the same chemical because they have the same effects in the body.
And the toxicity of retinoic acid is an established, documented fact. Just look at the documented "side effects" of tretinoin (when used as a chemotherapy drug) — which is an isomer of retinoic acid.
Genereux's theory says that it's not just "connected" but directly causal. That retinol and retinoic acid are the direct cause of all the autoimmune diseases, including Celiac. They are, in reality, just one disease (more accurately: a poisoning) with one cause and one mechanism — just manifesting in different tissues and organs (where it manifests first and worst might be due to a person's genetic "weakest link in the chain" so to speak).
Accutane has already been implicated in connection to autoimmune diseases:
"Isotretinoin was first marketed as Accutane by Hoffmann-La Roche. It sold well for many years, but in 2009, Roche decided to remove Accutane from the US market after juries had awarded millions of dollars in damages to former Accutane users over inflammatory bowel disease claims."
Also, in Ch. 20 of ETFOH, Genereux gives his theory about the Celiac / gluten connection. In short, his theory is that gluten is not true cause, but that in some people it does act as a facilitator of the root cause, retinol.
Personally, I did not have to eliminate wheat / gluten from my diet in order to get the benefits of VA depletion — but Genereux did eliminate it, and some people — probably the ones who know they have gluten sensitivity / Celiac — will be better off if they do eliminate it.
it must be posted here somewhere, but Ray said if youre hypothyroid he doesnt recommend going above 5000IU vitamin A a day (from all sources) and he generally doesnt recommend supplements besides vitamin E if needed, salt, vitamin K if using aspirin often, vitamin d if not getting sunlight.This all sounds relatively plausible to me, but what I don't understand is how Ray, who previously took vitamin A supplements and eats liver, eggs, and drinks a gallon of milk a day, hasn't died of vitamin A poisoning yet?
I don't have hypothyroidism, and my tsh is 1. but I experience symptoms of hypothyroidism, such as hair loss, ADHD, etc. Despite the fact that I now get less than 5000. I think the problem may really be an overload of vitamin A, since I have been drinking a lot of milk all my life + taking supplements for acne, which is why my cells do not receive thyroid hormones. Maybe, 5000 and even 3000 is a lot. I will try this diet and report the results.it must be posted here somewhere, but Ray said if youre hypothyroid he doesnt recommend going above 5000IU vitamin A a day (from all sources) and he generally doesnt recommend supplements besides vitamin E if needed, salt, vitamin K if using aspirin often, vitamin d if not getting sunlight.
Rays been on a half gallon milk a day for many years, but he said he gets his milk from farmers and skims it himself. so he would be getting even less vitamin A from the milk, although he does eat liver.
even mainstream medicine admits vitamin A is dangerous. the rda was 5000Iu, it was downgraded to 3000IU like less than 2 years ago, and the upper limit is 10000IU and medicine admits vitamin A can kill you from hypervitaminosis A which killed some people who ate polar bear liver.
I think Ray did use extreme doses of vitamin A while using high amounts of thyroid hormone in the summer or something.
apparently the carotene carotenoid forms of vitamin A have less chance of overdosing on vitamin A since they only convert into it as needed, but according to Ray they can still lower the metabolic rate, as well as too much animal form vitamin A.
if you are doing a few ounces liver and eggs a week, half gallon milk a day, you should be around 5000IU a day. its probably safer to avoid supplements of it
Ray does think anything above 0.5 tsh is not good but 1 is otherwise fine. if you were using accutane and those supplements you may have a serious overload. i think A has an anti calcium effect as well so in milk its not such a big deal. liver too, i think the copper and other things help to counter it. it may help to use vitamin D. reduced fat milks have supplemental vitamin A added which probably is much more harmful than food sources.I don't have hypothyroidism, and my tsh is 1. but I experience symptoms of hypothyroidism, such as hair loss, ADHD, etc. Despite the fact that I now get less than 5000. I think the problem may really be an overload of vitamin A, since I have been drinking a lot of milk all my life + taking supplements for acne, which is why my cells do not receive thyroid hormones. Maybe, 5000 and even 3000 is a lot. I will try this diet and report the results.
I think the bad reactions to vitamin A are due to temporary thyroid suppression. Therefore, it is important not only to follow this diet, but also to follow Ray's general recommendations for thyroid support.
I took large doses of A, I have normal vitamin D (60) and I have problems with calcium, because I have a low parathyroid hormone with normal other tests, it seems that I am overloaded with calciumRay does think anything above 0.5 tsh is not good but 1 is otherwise fine. if you were using accutane and those supplements you may have a serious overload. i think A has an anti calcium effect as well so in milk its not such a big deal. liver too, i think the copper and other things help to counter it. it may help to use vitamin D. reduced fat milks have supplemental vitamin A added which probably is much more harmful than food sources.
The RDA is based on a person losing 0.5% per day. I posted about this on Grant's forum. Many people including myself have proven that many of us lose much less per day. I've got high serum retinol after two years on a low vit A diet. My TSH is fine in case you're wondering. A low vit A diet is the norm around the world, most of the world's population has a low intake. Mexicans consume about a tenth of what Americans consume and have less autoimmune disease.Perhaps the norm of vitamin A intake should be reviewed.
Hypervitaminosis A causes elevated calcitriol regardless of your calcidiol status. Measuring your calcidiol level isn't going to tell you much unless it's way too high. The reason we need to avoid a high calcidiol level is because if calcidiol is too high it will raise calcitriol. Hypervitaminosis A also causes high calcitrol with its associated problems. When you lower your vit A levels you'll need far less vit D to maintain normal serum levels and you'll have a better vit K2 status as well. Elevated levels of retinoic acid depletes most or all of the other vitamins.I took large doses of A, I have normal vitamin D (60) and I have problems with calcium, because I have a low parathyroid hormone with normal other tests, it seems that I am overloaded with calcium
Hypervitaminosis A is a common problem but all people need to do to remedy it is to avoid supplemental vit A, fortified foods, liver, high fat dairy and high carotenoid fruit and vegetables like mango, sweet potato, carrot and spinach on a long term basis. There is no need to obsess about the vitamin A in a small amount of tomato sauce or in chicken skin. There is no benefit in consuming large amounts of legumes or following a carnivore diet or following Grant's diet or being restrictive in other ways.Grant is simply delusional. Diet doesn't work and his forum is a testatement to that. People switching diet and adjusting because vitamin A is a vitamin.
I have linked to an explanation of it above. Yes, total stores. No, if you are consuming vitamin A then you are replenishing stores at the same time as depleting them.Does this mean that every day you lose 0.5 % of your total vitamin A stores? What if you ate every day 100% of your RDA of vitamin A, would you use all of it and not store any of it?
If Atom Bergstrom is right:Thanks tim333. I have been vegan for many years and I have eaten high carotene foods daily the whole time. My vitamin A levels are at the bottom of the reference range but beta carotene levels way out of reference level, sky high. What I suspect is that some people can't convert carotene to vitamin A efficiently and this causes all adverse reactions. Like in this case. RACGP - A young woman with yellow hands and secondary amenorrhoea
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